My grandfather taught me something similar.
“Someone hotheaded enough to fight you on the street or in public in general is probably also hotheaded enough to very seriously harm you or worse. So try your best to never get involved in a fight that you can actually still avoid.”
I just commented this recently in another post, but my dad effectively said the same thing:
"The best way to win a fight is to not be in one in the first place"
Edit: (3hrs later, so some comments below wouldn't have seen this): He did also go on to say that "if you're cornered and have no choice, fight dirty - go for their eyes and balls".
He was an RAF policeman in the 60's who saw some interesting action, including getting shot, getting his nose broken and getting jumped (all separate incidents), so he spoke from experience lol.
Edit 2: As this comment is getting some traction, I'll add a little story he once told me that highlights the above:
As the story goes, one night out when he was stationed abroad he knew he was going to be jumped when he left the bar, as apparently the barman had warned him (something about looking at someone and pulling down your lower eyelid as a discrete message that you're in the shit - no idea if that's true but that's what my dad told me).
So my dad grabbed a bottle on the way out and sure enough got confronted by four guys outisde. Right before they went for him, he raised the bottle and said something like...
"you'll get me, but one of you is leaving here blind"
...and in the moment of hesitation that caused, he lobbed the bottle at their feet and legged it in the opposite direction 🤣
"If you go to a movie theater, and someone steps on your foot, let it slide! Why spend the next twenty years in jail 'cause someone smudged your Puma?"
I was in DC years ago after a Nationals game. I felt someone stick their hand in my back pocket to steal my wallet and I turned around and started chasing them on pure instinct. It looked like a teenage girl, but she led me to a group of hoodlums that formed a circle around me. One of them punched me in the back of the head, and I just turned heel and ran away. I've never been so angry in my life, but one person wins a fight against 5 only in Hollywood, where they wait and come at you one at a time.
Yep go to any martial arts gym and you’ll find that most of the fighters there would rather avoid a fight than get in one. Even though they know they are good at it, it’s not worth either getting hurt or hurting someone else. Leave that shit to the drunk idiots.
My dad loved to tell this story to us as kids. Basically there was this kid at his high school who was picked on a lot. Apparently he handled it without a lot of resistance and ignored it as well as he could.
One day some bullies cornered him, assuming his avoidance of confrontation was on account of fear or weakness. Long story short, that kid was an accomplished martial artist, and while he tried his best to avoid a fight, he did what was necessary to fend off his attackers.
My dad tells that story with such affection and satisfaction. I think those kids might've (rightfully) gotten their asses kicked, but my dad always focused on the idea of quiet strength.
I was a pretty small kid growing up and hit my growth spurts late (5'2" in 9th grade, eventually hit 5'10" by senior year), but did martial arts and kickboxing 3-4 times week. An older bully decided to sucker punch me at the locker and was shocked when I didn't go down. It hurt but by that time but I was very used to getting hit, the bully decided not to pursue any further and walked off.
Worked for me - I didn't want a fight in a crowded high school hallway, who knows who would decide to join in.
In Chapter 3, “Attack by Stratagem” of The Art of War, Sun Tzu said that the highest form of military success is achieving your objective without having to fight. The objective is not combat, the objective is achieving victory while minimizing the need for force.
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
That kind of advice hits differently when it comes from someone who actually spent years dealing with real violence. Sounds like your dad learned the hard way that avoiding the fight is usually the smartest move.
Absolutely. Unfortunately for him, the nature of the job didn't always give him the choice..
Prime example - the broken nose came from opening an inspection hatch on the cell for someone in custody. As he peered in, a fist came out 😅 the inspection hatches 60yrs ago weren't like the safer ones today, it was literally a flap in a door.
He did live by his own advice though. That getting jumped situation, he managed to cause a moment of hesitation before they set on him, and he took the opportunity leg it lol.
My best friend growing up, his dad was a prison guard in North Ireland. He had similar stories, and trained in martial arts his whole life (as long as I knew him).
My favourite tale was when a friend spotted him in a department store, coming up the escalatator, he hid among some mannequins with an intent to surprise him.
When the unlucky bloke jumped out, my friends father had this guy off his feet, and threw him a few metres in seconds.
I (rather ashamedly) went for my dad once. I was in my late teens (hot-headed but old enough to know better) and we were having a big argument.
My dad was is his mid-50's, and I was on my back with a blow to my side before I knew what had happened. He pulled his punch too - it was just enough so I felt it, but didn't injure or even bruise me at all.
I know in retrospect that such lessons are not the best way to parent, but boy did I learn about humility, underestimating people, and starting something I couldn't finish 😅
I took karate as an elective in college. The instructor was very clear day 1 that karate was not going to be super applicable in a street fight without decades of training. "If someone starts a fight with you they don't deserve a fair fight. Go for the balls. Repeatedly."
Hell yes to your edit! The only fight I've been in I went for the nuts. Shoulda gone for the eyes! He had close to 6 inches and 60lbs on me.
Dude came at me with both arms reaching out trying to go for my throat. I got my hands and arms between his as he lunged and was able to keep him from keeping his arms together and using his reach advantage to keep me from reaching him. Had I not made him bend his arms out he could have just held my throat while I couldnt reach anything but his arms. I was able to get my hands on his face and like a fucking idiot I decided to not "escalate" by gouging his eyes out. Thinking back I should gone for his eyes, he already had tried to strangle me so eyes would have been fair game.
Once I had my hands on his head I was able to shove him off of me. He charged again with his arms out so I dropped low and tried for a double leg take down. Lost control of one leg and he pivoted and backed into a countertop so I couldn't drop him. I pulled on the one leg I did have and was able to bring him to one knee but he was over me and had my back as I maintained control over the one leg. He got me in a headlock and started to squeeze. He had some serious muscle and the pressure got painful and serious quick. His groin was at head level with me at this point so I gave one warning to let go and back off. He didn't so I started uppercutting and hooking punches aimed at his nuts. He turned and pushed me off to the side enough that I missed and was only able to hit his thigh.
It was at that point he got pulled off of me and the fight ended. Never had an adrenaline dump like it and the whole sequence is burned into my memory. It was a really shitty night lmao.
Fair fights only exist in the ring, and even then they are only "fair".
A field goal kick to the nuts is a perfectly valid defensive tactic in a real fight. And although the meat sack's buddies might make fun of you for doing it to their friend after... they will do it from way the hell over there.
I’m reminded of the quote that I believe is badly misunderstood, “If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
His story was drinking in a shitty bar woth a friend, when the friend was chatting up a girl. Girl's boyfriend took exception to that, except when he told my dad's friend to back off, dad's friend said 'make me' (my dad's friend was a oilfield hand, big, dumb, and tough, thr other guy was small and not particularly beefy). Little guy leaves. Bartender pulls my dad over and says ' that is XXX's kid. If you two are still here when he gets back, they're never gonna find your bodies'. Dad believed him. They loaded up and moved to another state that night.
"if you're cornered and have no choice, fight dirty - go for their eyes and balls"
Eyes and throat. If somebody's drunk/high/angry enough, they can shrug off the pain, but everyone needs to breathe and most need to see to fight, plus there's a pretty strong reflex to protect those areas so it can force them to react.
Also: it only takes one punch in the wrong spot or somebody smacking their head on a hard surface in the wrong way to become a lethal injury. It's really not worth it to turn a disagreement/perceived disrespect into a second degree murder charge
Most useful thing I learned from my first martial arts instructor, a great judo master at The Jiu Jitsu Institute in Chicago was when to walk away and when to run.
I’ve always thought that was one of the smarter lessons. I’d rather swallow my pride and walk away than find out too late that the other guy has nothing left to lose.
Bingo. If you can get away that is your only priority. This ain't hockey. Don't wake up in jail or the hospital because you got the dude to the ground and met him there.
This.^ This 1000 times over.
I spent 7 years on the streets from 15 to 22. People dont know the level of violence out there every night and the levels of suffering and desperation some of that violence spawns from.
It doesnt matter if they are 12 or 70. One knife can end your life. One slip-up can cost you everything in a violent altercation.
A bad fall can change the way you speak and swallow for the rest of your life. Even if you are attacked and defend yourself very leniently, the 9 friends that person was with wont care.
Civilisation is a mirage that ends the second violence begins and violence is far more common and frequent than many people would believe.
If you are in a streetfight. Keep moving. Keep your shoulders towards them. Dont stop moving until you can get enough distance to bolt away.
The fights between girls were always so awful when I was in school 20 years ago, and judging by the "viral videos" of current fights, the brutality is only growing with "clout."
A girl came into my class during senior year because she already had to repeat it twice and one day she just ripped a creole earring out of the girl sitting in front of her during class, simply because "come one, it doesn't even look good on her"
Oh I believe it. I'm build like a football linebacker, and was back then too. I'm no tough guy or anything but people didn't fuck with me either. I promise you, there was no world I was getting in the middle of that. Gods only know how many fewer parts I'd have come out with. When guys fight, it's egotism. When women fight it's deep down caveman "Survive the smilodon attack" DNA bubbling back to the surface. There's just no veneer of civility left in the proposition. Most not all, but most guys will back off in a fight they won once they feel they've made their point. Pretty sure one of those girls would have killed the other before it was over if the adults hadn't swarmed them.
I remember a thread where a bouncer said when he had to break up two dudes fighting, they never attacked him. When women fight and he would pull them apart, they almost always started attacking him too
Im a teacher, girl fights are 1000% worse. Boy fights are all the same, they get loud, get really really close while staring, and then if they touch they swing.
Girls will be laughing and carrying on and then flip a switch. One girl told me the best fighting advice ever. "Just grab the back of their head with one hand, and try to punch it as hard as you can with the other"-she was 12
Had a teacher lament the difference in dealing with boy's fights and girl's fights.
Boy's fights have this weird set of "rules". The fighters square up and start swinging fists. Every other boy surround them and start cheering. As soon as the fight cross some invisible rule of fairness, usually when one of the fighters goes from fists to kicks, elbows, grabs or when one goes to the floor, everyone surrounding essentially piles on, seperates the fighters and that's it. The fighters will be mad for the afternoon and the next day they are laughing together and walking shoulder to shoulder like nothing happened.
Girl's fights are without rules. Nobody watching will intervene and once it's over the resulting grudges takes months, if not years to resolve.
Saw, and been in, plenty of boy fights. Seen limbs broken and eyes gouged. But the one serious girl fight I saw in '90s junior high, two girls just went feral at breakfast. Beating each other with their trays, targeting the belly, hard. Both lost their babies from the ~10 seconds it took people to pull them apart. One lost an eye, too.
Wait, what? In junior high? One I could believe just by the numbers, but was every girl in your junior high pregnant? Doesn't junior high top out at 12 years old, 13 maybe?
Am a girl (well, I was back in the day). Never never punched anyone/anything. You'll break something and fuck up your hand for life. What I did instead was a quick 180 turn and elbow them in the sternum / stomach. Very very efficient (they fall straight to the floor), no harm on my side. It also puts a "crazy" label on my head, so they would leave me alone from then on.
We're talking school fights here. Nobody is that knowledgeable about fighting when they are 12. But when a bully really wants to hurt you, the choice is to cry or fight. I fought.
As an adult, I've always avoided violence. 100% success so far.
I wonder how much of that is ... I guess socialisation?
I mean, boys grow up being stronger-ish, and used to 'roughhousing' a bit. And they're a bit more likely to "express themselves" physically.
Girls tend to be 'not allowed' to get physical for various reasons, so when they do swing at each other it's from a position of serious rage/fear etc. and 'do the maximum amount of harm' (not least because if you're fighting someone stronger, pacing yourself is a losing strategy).
Jesus, I remember a lot of hair pulling, which was hilarous as I wear wigs, but eyebrow ripping? How does that even work? Are we talking like. Eyebrow scalping or pulling tufts?
I'm going to start telling my nieces and nephews I have to draw my eyebrows on because they were ripped off back in '92 now...which is extra funny because they can't do math to realize I'd have been six.
The one got the other down, sort of hopped in her neck and just started grabbing and ripping. I guess it hurt like hell because the other girl managed to do a sort of log-roll, ratcheting the aggressor off the top and after some scuffling, essentially did the same to the other girl in retribution. By the time adults got there, they had raw bloody holes above their eyes.
I doubt "ripped" is the best descriptor (but I'm not a teacher, so I might be wrong.) Back in the 90s, lockers generally had protruding locks like these, so you could grab someone's head and run them down the row of lockers at lock level, which I can absolutely see doing a number to one's eyebrows, along with the rest of their face. That's why lockers now have recessed locks like this.
By the time girls are willing to have a physical altercation they are very angry and very unhinged. Basically all of our socialization discourages it, so when it happens it’s like a Chernobyl meltdown.
I think it's partly that and partly the fact that they usually haven't been taught the "code of conduct" of fighting like most boys have from an early age. When two boys fight there's usually an implicit understanding that "As long as you don't try to poke out my eyes, kick my nuts or stomp me while I'm on the ground I'll return the courtesy", and anyone violating that "code" can't expect to be afforded that kind of courtesy from anyone else in future fights.
It's strange but I know what you are talking about. Boys tend to "stop" when it gets out of hand and it's weird because both sides know this without there being a rulebook so to speak.
In high school (also in the 90's) if a couple guys were fighting one of the teachers could probably break it up fairly easily. If girls were fighting, they called security and got backup.
Dude, my first year of high school (late 90s) they were forced to pull all the lockers out of the school. Why? A girl took one of the combination locks from her locker, dropped into a pantyhose, and beat the hell out of another girl with it. All because she thought the other girl was flirting with her boyfriend.
I don't know the full story, but I remember hearing a teacher talk about it saying she had skull fractures and an orbital fracture from the attack.
Yes girl fights are vicious. Twin sisters in Jr high I had the pleasure of witnessing. These girls were trying to maim, disfigure, or kill each other. I am talking smashing body parts against brick walls and grinding them against said wall. One threw the other downstairs. This went on longer than it should and by the beginning of the next class they were buddies again.
Reminds me of a Kyle Kinane bit about girl fights where he instructed everyone to tuck in their clothes and loose ends because all it takes is one loose end to get caught, the person gets sucked into the fight, and just ground meat comes out the other side like a wood chipper.
At least one girl in Cookie Monster pj pants a month got her ass handed to her because some other girl yanked her down by her lanyard. No idea why those types specifically loved Cookie Monster, giant lanyards of Labubu equivalents, and hot chips, but they were always in fights.
Boys will often 'play fight' as something that's acceptably masculine, so even when actually fighting are doing so in ways that are inherently a bit more ... I guess "fair"? They're trying to settle a disagreement, not inherently just fuck someone up.
But when girls fight it's for a different reason in general, and they've learned from an earlier age that they typically the weaker party (I mean, in a world where an average man is stronger than an average woman) so they only way they 'win' is by fighting as nasty and dirty as possible, looking to inflict maximum damage as fast as possible.
(The threshold for fight starting is also different too I believe, which is also a factor)
Once in middle school a larger kid kept bullying me. Nothing horrendous, things like hitting me in the arm or pushing me. Finally I had enough and told him if he did it again we would have a serious fight and while there was zero doubts he would win that fight and beat my ass I would make sure he was hurt also by the end. Luckily it worked for me and he left me alone after that.
Generally stupid people do not really consider consequences as fully as they should. This is dangerous and there are a lot of people that are that dumb.
At a Mexican restaurant in my town a guy was being loud, another guy asked him to quiet down a couple of times. The first guy suggested the settle who can be loud in the parking lot, second guy agrees and after taking down first guy goes back inside to enjoy his plate of nachos. First guy goes to his car real quick, grabs a gun and shoots second guy. Killing him. He never got to finish his nachos.
I don't know if the lesson here is to not punch loud people in the mouth when they need it or maybe you shouldn't have a gun if you have anger issues.
And if you win, make sure it's the kind of win where the other guy can't get up to grab a gun. Don't settle for a knockdown. Make him take a nap and then skedaddle.
The real lesson is the best way to live a happy life is to not get on anyones bad side if you can help it. Ego isn’t worth angering someone else petty enough to waste their life just to ruin yours.
This actually one of the non-obvious benefits of sparring if you are doing it properly. The amount of times I have been saved from sever harm by my sparring partners gives me a clear perspective on the fact that I can 100% loose my life or limb in a moment.
Or, they will stab and kill you because they took your intentions at your word. A lot of people think that acting scary before a fight is a good intimidation tactic. But really, if they believe you, and if you happen to corner them, or convince them that you will follow them, then what you thought was going to be a fun testosterone bursting smash-em-up, could just be you on the other end of something lethal and warranted.
Not just that. It takes one punch hitting the right (or wrong) spot and you could die. I used to hang out with a lot of MMA guys, one of them big enough that he was recognized everywhere. He occasionally had drunk morons try to start crap with him. He was always sober which put him at an advantage anyway but he was a master at calming things down. Usually it ended with the drunk guy walking away thinking they were buds 🙄.
Odds are he could have ended any fight quickly and with the other dude on the ground. But he didn’t want the drama, liability, and he’d be the first to admit - you NEVER know. Maybe some rando with a beer gut used to box. Maybe he would just be able to get one lucky shot that was serious. Great guy. He’d trained enough that he knew even a non professional could surprise him. And he didn’t want to hurt someone just because they were stupid one night.
This happened to my friend and he wasn't even a fighter at all. Just got into it with a random (another hot head with an ego) and he punched him just right to knock him down and he hit his head and died. Involuntary manslaughter.
Valid point on how far some people will go to win - and yeah, for some people it's ego, but for other people it's survival.
I boxed and did mma and some martial arts when I was younger, and I did some security work, but I also grew up pretty hard and was taught very real armed and unarmed self defense starting when I was a kid, by an ex military dude who's about a foot and a half taller and 200lbs heavier than i am as a full grown adult.
If we've agreed to sparring, I play by the rules.
If I'm on the clock, I will restrain them as gently as they allow me to.
If we're on the street, I'll never start it but my first and only goal is to permanently damage my opponent as much as possible as fast as possible and then to gtfo, because I have no idea how far they're willing to go, and I'm not about to risk getting maimed or losing my life finding out.
Or you accidentally pick a fight with someone you really shouldn't, who won't take you out right away but him and his "buddies" find you and you just disappear. It's actually way easier than you think.
A fight can go from stupid to life-changing in seconds, especially when you have no idea what the other person is capable of. Walking away is usually the smartest move when the stakes are that unpredictable.
Bingo. Also the winner of a knife fight goes in the ambulance, the loser gets a body bag. Same goes for prison fights. The razor blade between the teeth ain't for show.
In Brazil we say "the cure for crazy is crazy and a half". Rowdy guys who start shit might get stabbed, hit with a rock, or knocked down and get their head stomped in by a crazier person and that´s all she wrote.
I'm somewhat decent at fighting but that's what also turned me off from fighting. so many times i was just like ohhh I could brake this dudes arm right now and end the fight. Like I realized how easy it is to just end a fight. I said yeah that's not ok, like it's easy to win if you don't care so I would lose fights cuz I could end it but wouldn't. like jujitsu and wrestling and just bareknuckle it's like ohhh I could snap your arm right now but that would be brutal. like people will go for shit and i'm sitting there like nope that's a dumb move but yeah don't break his arm even tho he is literally letting me do that easily. like you are letting me kill you but fuck i'm not a shitty person so I will let you roll out.
That’s something I tell the new bouncers at my work.
If we gotta go hands on with someone, it’s an “all hands on deck” situation. We have no idea who has just enough screws loose and I have the scars to show it.
That’s exactly what scares me about street fights. I might think it’s just some stupid ego thing, but I have no idea what’s going on in the other person’s head. One bad decision can turn a pointless fight into something permanent.
A fight can easily be deadly with just a single punch. And if you go down they could easily kill you. Kick your head. Toss you in water. Not just "embarrassment".
Protect yourself and others. Avoid fights as best you can.
I'm always kind of stunned at the stupidity of people who decide to pick a fight with a stranger, especially when the instigator thinks that there are "rules" to a fight like that - they think that getting kicked in the crotch or their eye being gouged is somehow "off limits".
Yknow, until the pick a fight someone who is more concerned with inflicting as much pain and harm as possible. Then the quickly learn why you don't pick fights
Some "dudes" will stab you and run just to save themselves getting hurt.
I'm not punching it out and and risking ending up in the hospital just because some asshole wants to prove his dick is half an inch longer.
The entire idea that "lets have a fight" is a normal thing, can ever be a safe response to anything, or that "winning" a fight is the important part over not getting hurt is stupid and warped.
Most people are going to legitimately defend themselves and get the fuck out.
The danger in getting into a fight is getting into a fight.
There were some young men brawling near our apartment a week or so ago, and it was very one-sided with one guy delivering punches and throwing the guy around, and the other guy getting back up and coming back for more blows.
I had seen them before they started fighting and it was very much that one recieving blows kept returning to try and instigate something while the one who was delivering the blows had kept walking away.
For me, these are often some of the scarier fights, because I have seen them go so wrong for the person who is repeatedly trying to walk away. Where I went to university (Swansea) was notorious for drunks fighting after nights out but of the really really serious injuries I saw they all came at the hands of someone trying to end the fight who was just tired and done.
One was tired and ended up using his knee which knocked the guy out, and in two others to try and end the fight they had kicked the person in the face while on the ground, which in both cases nearly killed them. The point where both people are physically done but the weaker/worse fighter is just refusing to give up are always some of the scariest moments if no one intervenes.
I almost got stabbed 30 years ago.he attempted but missed during a stupid street fight that i tried my hardest to no get into.he tried but got my shirt.in fact I wasn't even by the person i was in the argument with but a 3rd party maybe his friend no clue
If someone starts being violent with me, especially another man (especially someone who seem stronger) I will 100% have no moral problem doing anything to ensure the other person is no longer in a position to harm me, and that doesn’t even mean waiting to see if they calm down before escalating - that first shove or punch against me is telling they don’t believe in peaceful resolution.
I can’t understand people who would start a fight and not expect to have things bitten off, eyes gouged, stabbed with a pen etc.
I'm a relaxed buy but if I'm in a fight, street rules apply. That means no rules. I will grab and twist your balls, rip your ear off and spit in your eyes. Better I win than you win.
You're right, and I'll add that the biggest risk is winning harder than you meant to. An old friend of mine got into a fight in bathroom at a bar. He hit the guy in the jaw, the guy fell back and hit the back of his head on a urinal. The guy went into a coma and died and my friend is doing life for it.
I can't exactly break up a fight but I will insist people "take it outside" or usually just go fight in the grass somewhere if they really want to fight. I don't care how riled up you are- at least have some self preservation and know that if you knock them out while on concrete there's a solid chance they crack their melon and you spend a long time in prison.
I met people who were adamant that headstomping was a perfectly valid part of a fight. I tried to explain that once someone is down and unconscious (or at least dazed) that you've won, but they just didn't think so. They had to cause brain damage. It was like a compulsion.
The scary thing is there's a lot of people who would agree with them.
I have been in boxing, martial arts, and wrestling. I'm in decent shape and pretty strong. There is absolutley nothing anyone can say to me to goad me into a street or bar fight. IMO, thats as dangerous as drunk driving. You have no idea what the other person, or their friends, are willing to do to get you down. If you want me to fight you, you will have to actually attack me, and even then, Im only doing what I need to get away. All the training in the world will mean fuck all when there is a knife in your back, a bottle broken over your head, or pepper spray in your eyes.
Or even if they lose, their willingness to hang out where they think you parked your car with a couple friends and some pipes. Friend of mine lost a brother that way.
My dad worked construction and on the oil rigs when he was a young man.
That was one of the two pieces of advice he gave me about bar/street fights. You never know if the other guy has a knife, or a gun, and hates to lose.
The other was. If someone does start a fight with you, put them down, and beat them till they stop. And then run away. Because if you just knock the guy fro #1 down, he might pop up with a pistol.
Guy in one of my classes in college wrote a story where his main character wanted to seem tough so he decided to pick a fight with the head jock of his school...but was worried about his teeth so bought a mouth guard. Picks the fight, they go out, he reaches for the mouth guard, hears "knife" and is then stabbed. But his teeth were fine.
So I keep that in mind. A street fight isn't a boxing match. It's a fight and people are going to fight dirty to win.
Learnt it mighty quick as a kid in the South in the 80s, with a bar owner for a father, and I mean redneck beer joint I was raised in, later become a biker bar in fact in a town of 900, for examples of all kinds. Plus my own hands-on, some number of times. Good lesson to learn the easier way if you can, to be sure.
jfc reddit.. if you couldn't figure this out without being told I'm guessing a lot of life is difficult and confusing for you cause it doesn't get much more obvious than that.
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u/Informal-Project-235 1d ago
Wow that’s a real good life lesson