r/teslore Feb 23 '17

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486 Upvotes

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r/teslore 1d ago

Free-Talk The Weekly Chat Thread— August 31, 2026

3 Upvotes

Hi everyone, it’s that time again!

The Weekly Free-Talk Thread is an opportunity to forget the rules and chat about anything you like—whether it's The Elder Scrolls, other games, or even real life. This is also the place to promote your projects or other communities. Anything goes!


r/teslore 11h ago

Boethiah, Lorkhan, Padomay and Creation

16 Upvotes

So, I feel like there's something here and I am probably not the first one to recognize it - Boethiah, among all the Daedric Princes, seems to have a distinct connection to Lorkhan and Padomay.

Let me start by their connection to the Dunmer, a people closely associateed with Lorkhan and the Psijic Endeavour:

This Nerevar is the son of Boethiah, one of the strongest Padomaics.

From Five Songs of King Wulfharth.

Boethiah is considered one of the strongest "Padomaics", this could well just refer the chaotic Daedra in general:

The blood of Padomay became the Daedra. The blood of Anu became the stars. The mingled blood of both became the Aedra (hence their capacity for good and evil, and their greater affinity for earthly affairs than the Daedra, who have no connection to Creation).

From The Annotated Anuad.

I think this plays into the connection between Lorkhan and Sithis/Padomay though. Let's talk about why:

We all know that Boethiah is one of the 3 Anticipations/Reclamations and their role is very notable in this, as they were the one originally kicking off the Velothi movement:

Boethiah is the Anticipation of Almalexia but male to her female. Boethiah was the ancestor who illuminated the elves ages ago before the Mythic Era. He told them the truth of Lorkhan's test, and defeated Auriel's champion, Trinimac. Boethiah ate Trinimac and voided him. The followers of Boethiah and Trinimac rubbed the soil of Trinimac upon themselves and changed their skins.

Boethiah is, often together with Mephala, considered the one entity that revaled the concept of the Psijic Endeavour to Veloth and sparked their Exodus. This is pretty well known and noteworthy as a connection to Lorkhan on it's own.

Now let's talk about convention.

When Magic (Magnus), architect of the plans for the mortal world, decided to terminate the project, the Gods convened at the Adamantine Tower [Direnni Tower, the oldest known structure in Tamriel] and decided what to do. Most left when Magic did. Others sacrificed themselves into other forms so that they might Stay (the Ehlnofey). Lorkhan was condemned by the Gods to exile in the mortal realms, and his heart was torn out and cast from the Tower. Where it landed, a Volcano formed. With Magic (in the Mythic Sense) gone, the Cosmos stabilized. Elven history, finally linear, began (ME2500).

From Before the Ages of Man.

This event, set in motion by Lorkhan, marked the end of the Dawn Era and started linear time.

Some of you might be familiar with another event named the Middle Dawn. A sect of the Alessian Order, the Marukhti Selectives, tried to expell the elven parts of Akatosh and basically broke time. A state not dissimilar to the Dawn Era, hence the name "Middle Dawn":

As for myself, I was here and there and here again, like the rest of the mortals during the Dragon Break. How do you think I learned my mystery? The Maruhkati Selectives showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below."

From Mannimarco's account in Where Were You When The Dragon Broke.

Not much is known about how it ended, except for, peculiarly, this pre-riddle'thar Khajiiti tale of Boethra:

Then it was she found herself atop the tower. There were magicians there who shouted in Monkey Truth, and it was then that Boethra felt doubt for the first time in eternity. The sorcerer apes spoke lies in a way that made them true, and as she heard the words Boethra saw new runes form in front of her eyes that she could not deny, and there again she felt something akin to fear.

From The Bladesongs of Boethra, Volume V.

This clearly references the Middle Dawn caused by the Marukhati Selectives. The tale goes on, telling how Boethra found two warring serpents beyond the lies of the Selectives:

Boethra opened her eyes to many spinning wheels surrounded by fire. Twelve in total they were, but she dodged each with the precision of her practiced art. Beyond she saw warring serpents, and in their conflict she recognized the truth within the lies of the Imga's dance.

One was a flame-feathered serpent, brilliant and pure, with crystal scales and a head like that of a hunting bird, its eyes sharp and clear, its mane an argument against all the Mannish impurity of all the known worlds.

There to meet it was a serpent of the blackest scales, and all the Void seemed to come with it, so much that one would think the feathered could never stand against it, and yet it did. And this serpent's eyes burned red as blood, and its scales moved and shifted with new ideas that were born and died as soon as they appeared. Despite this chaos, its mane was white and gentle, and in it Boethra saw a fleeting chance for peace along the Wheels.

What's referenced here is the interplay of Anu and Padomay and the 12 worlds of creation. I believe Boethra entered the one moment outside time that is mentioned in the annotated Anuad (see link above):

Meanwhile, life sprang up on the twelve worlds of creation and flourished. After many ages, Padomay was able to return to Time. He saw Creation and hated it. He swung his sword, shattering the twelve worlds in their alignment. Anu awoke, and fought Padomay again. The long and furious battle ended with Anu the victor. He cast aside the body of his brother, who he believed was dead, and attempted to save Creation by forming the remnants of the 12 worlds into one -- Nirn, the world of Tamriel. As he was doing so, Padomay struck him through the chest with one last blow. Anu grappled with his brother and pulled them both outside of Time forever.

Back to the Bladesongs:

[Boethra] did not agree with what the magiapes sought, but she saw an opportunity arise from their lies that she could not ignore.

An opportunity, an action, an endeavour?

Having no time to think on her choice, nor time to question why she must bear this burden, Boethra of the Infinite Blades set forth in a streak that mortals who remembered the untime would later call the Division of Heaven.

Through fractured firmament she flew, summoning to her all the blades she had named to her side. And just as the beak of the feathered serpent found purchase between black scales, Boethra was there to pierce its bright eye with more than words.

So in this most crucial of all moments in creation, Boethra intervened and per this action ended the Middle Dawn.

Just as Lorkhan ended the Dawn Era with convention.

And as her many blades encircled the false-hawk-mouth, Boethra landed upon the head of the shadow snake and touched her palm to its scales. Memories of things past and visions of things yet seen scorched her mind, but more prominent than anything was her love for Lorkhaj and the feeling of his claw upon her cheek.

A dark flame surrounded Boethra, and upon her form appeared ebony mail, and in her free hand a black blade, and upon her head a mask of war, and upon her shoulders a shroud of death. And though Lorkhaj had loved many, some perhaps before her, in that moment Boethra felt his love within and around her, and she knew that it was as true and as great as that he had held for any other spirit of any known world.

Here it says Boethra felt Lorkhaj's (The Khajiiti Lorkhan) love. This might well just describe a form of romantic love between those beings, but it could also mean something along the lines of her actions aligning with the will of Lorkhan. I will adress this shortly, for now let's wrap up the Bladesong:

Then did the Warrior brandish her blades and raise her head high. And the shadow flame billowed around her and swam along the edges of her being. She looked upon the hawk that was a serpent, and she saw it for what it was and what it brought, and she recited the Will Against Rule.

The Will Against Rule seems to be a concept of self-improvement by struggle against authority, that said, it also seems to mean struggle against Stasis here. All creation sprang from some form of struggle against established order or rules, from a "corrupting action" usually in the form of padomay.

Here is a short excerpt from From Exile to Exodus

Boethiah addressed the spirit. "You enforce your will with curses both you and your followers know are not true. This is why you are never satisfied. To achieve glory through struggle and pain, you must learn the way of the Word and the Sword. You must be tested until you bear the proper tendencies of the hero. You must come to understand the Will Against Rule. Only then might you know something of Love."

Boethiah adresses this to Malacath, another spirit known for "testing" his people. They also mention "Love", as well as "the Word" and "the Sword". Many of these concepts are used in the Sermons of Vivec, another god closely associated with the Psijic Endeavour and Lorkhan.

This makes me think we are talking about more than just romantic feelings between Lorkhan and Boethiah here. It makes me think of Crowley and Thelema and the whole "Love under Will" shebang, same as we already came across in Vivec's sermons.

Now this is where I want to quote something unofficial, by u/RottenDeadite, who already wrote a lot about this topic and hopefully won't mind if I borrow some bits:

It didn't take much digging to discover that Vivec's Love is quite a lot like Aleister Crowley's Love, which is defined as any action or motion that is performed or experienced under Will.

"Will" is probably the most important concept in Thelemetic thought, and it is probably easiest to define it as the destiny particular to each and every individual. So it is suggested that a person acting in concert with that person's true Will is acting in a divine manner. Thus the most popular phrase of Thelema: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."

So, in summary: Love (when done under Will) is the assimilation of experience in accordance with the intrinsically divine nature of an individual; the act of progressively becoming one with our own Star.

So, we see that not only there's the concept of "Love", but it is also intrinsically related to something Crowley calls "Will".

So what Boethiah says to Malacath is that by acting according to "Will against Rule" he may "know Love". Now, "Will Against Rule" is a bit more than simply "Will", but one can see where they're going with it: By establishing our own "destiny", our "Will" against the "Rule", the Universe, Stasis, we may know "Love".

Allow me to, shortly, return to Lorkhan. There's some accounts that tell about Lorkhan wandering Creation and eventually looking at it from the edge, sideways. From this perspective the "Wheel" that is creation looked like a tower, or the letter "I":

Fifth:

'Look at the majesty sideways and all you see is the Tower, which our ancestors made idols from. Look at its center and all you see is the begotten hole, second serpent, womb-ready for the Right Reaching, exact and without enchantment.'

Sixth:

'The heart of the second serpent holds the secret triangular gate.'

Seventh:

'Look at the secret triangular gate sideways and you see the secret Tower.'

Eighth:

'The secret Tower within the Tower is the shape of the only name of God, I.'

From 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 21.

I as in me, as in the individual acting under Will (Against Rule). By acting with Love under Will I am god.

This is pretty much the Psijic Endeavour that Boethiah taught to the Dunmer and got picked up by Vivec summed up.

So, let's summarize:

Lorkhan created the Mundus after becoming self-aware. According to some unofficial lore he created it with the purpose of enabling others to see what he saw: The Tower, the "I". This creation, or convention, marks the beginning of linear time.

By "achieving the tower", the sideways wheel, the "I", someone can "transcend the gods that created them" - This is called the "Psijic Endeavour"

Boethiah taught the Psijic Endeavour to their followers among the Aldmer after Convention. They became the Chimer and eventually Dunmer, one of them is Vivec, one of only a couple mortals that became gods. Vivec and Boethiah talk very similarly about the concepts that make up the Psijic Endeavour.

At some point the Marukhati Selectives broke time by trying to mess with the Dragon God.

Boethra, the khajiiti version of Boethiah, somehow manages to intervene in this event, not only restoring the linear time Lorkhan intended for his creation, but also possibly even sparking creation itself from the interplay between Anu and Padomay.

This made her feel Lorkhan's "love" while reciting the "will against rule".

Now, Love usually means acting according to one's will, here it's explicitly stated to be Lorkhan's love that Boethiah feels. Possibly by acting according to Lorkhan's will.

So, is there a deeper connection between the two of them? Is Boethiah simply a big fan? Or is Boethiah maybe a spirit akin to other examples like Anu->Anuiel->Auriel? Could it be Padomay->Sithis->Lorkhan->Boethiah? that Boethiah is, like, a "fragment" of Lorkhan like Lorkhan is a "fragment" of Sithis and Sithis a "fragment" of Padomay?

Fuck I've written a way too long post about this, haven't I?


r/teslore 6h ago

Understanding creation myth

2 Upvotes

I’ve always thought that the overlapping creation myths of the Monomyth and Anuad are contradictory, not to mention contradicting with the individual creation myths elves and humans have for themselves. I want to explain my understanding/head-canon of how I think it went down and see if there’s anything I’m missing. The story of Anu and Padomay bringing about the twin forces of Anuiel and Sithiz and then Auriel/AKA and Lorkhan/Shor. The prior worlds before Nirn I see as other Kalpas and personally to me are kinda irrelevant right now. Lorkhan tricks the Et’ada into giving themselves as the bones of the earth and the Ehlnofey become the precursors of mortals. After learning of the trick, some Ehlnofey follow Auriel and some follow Lorkhan. Lorkhan loses and the Convention is held at Adamantine. Linear time is established, the Merethic era begins and Lorkhan’s heart creates red mountain.

My only issues are that I personally believe the creation myths of the Nords that they were breathed to life at the throat of the world which I don’t think necessarily contradicts with this.

How did the Aedra hold convention when they are the planets in the sky?


r/teslore 22h ago

What is the Orsimer view on Mundus?

18 Upvotes

The altmer view mundus as a prison, for instance, whereas for the races of man it's more of a gift or a trial to reach their full potentials. The orsimer were once elves and worship a being that probably was once Trinimac, a deity that would have likely viewed mundus as more of a trap than anything else. Despite this, the orsimer seem to almost revel in challenge and hardship, which makes me think they're not altogether against the concept of mortal existence and Lorkhan's supposed plot.


r/teslore 1d ago

What is the current accepted lore for Vampires?

18 Upvotes

For the longest time, I heard that the story of Lamae was the origin of Vampires, but I recently heard that that may not be true, and that Vaermina may be the origin of Vampires. And information on certain Vampire clans is very scarce.


r/teslore 1d ago

The most prosperous cities in Skyrim?

25 Upvotes

I want to know your opinion. Could you rank the five major cities of Skyrim bassed in their prosperity? According your own criteria. I’m not planning on arguing with you about it; I just want to know your general opinion.

I want to clarify that I’m referring exclusively to prosperity, not to your favorite city (mine is whiterun but is low in this top). Maybe you prefer a city because of its climate even if it’s less prosperous.

(I’ll give a brief explanation for each one, but if you don’t want to, you can simply rank them in order)

PERSONAL TIER LIST:

  1. Solitude: capital of Skyrim. More luxurious shops. Well maintained fortifications and lavish buildings. It also has the main warehouse of the East Empire Company.
  2. Windhelm: major commercial port. We know of at least three ships that have routes based there (which supplues Raven Rock for example). It has very well-maintained fortifications and lavish buildings although it also has segregation with grey quarters being poor. The East Empire Company has a headquarters there. One of the best houses in the game.
  3. Riften: It’s theoretically a prosperous place. Although a fire destroyed a large part of the city years ago, which is why we see so many wooden buildings. That´s in part why our house is not too special. Although it’s practically controlled by the mafia, which hurts its prosperity, it has good connections with Cyrodiil, and the very existence of the Thieves Guild there is partly based on it being a prosperous place.
  4. Whiterun: In the past, it was something resembling a version of the Imperial City in Skyrim. Although it has been in decline for a long time, which is why we see so many ruins and such poorly maintained fortifications.
  5. Markarth: It has good fortifications and a very good house for the player. However, ethnic tensions and the open war with the Forsworn limit trade and security. Because that, much of their wealth is based on mining due to difficulties with trade, wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of mine owners. Due to that, there’s a lot of inequality, and some of the shops aren’t doing particularly well.”

r/teslore 1d ago

Which race would be the most influenced by celtic cultures in the lore?

35 Upvotes

Something always bugged me concerning Bretons. A lot of posts online argue that TES Bretons mainly come from IRL Bretons. The thing is, as a Breton myself, and as I am deeply passionate about my region's culture, I really don't see any resemblance between us and TES Bretons. At best, the heavy Feudal France inspirations and the small presence of druidism as explored in TESO might create some bridge between them and us, but to me, that's where the similitudes end.

Nords are, of course, mainly based on a romanticized depiction of Norse culture, but they do feature celtic imagery, celtic knots, stuff like that...

Reachmen are the most obvious ones to me, since their naming conventions are heavily celtic, but their tribal aspect bugs me a bit.

What do you think bears the most resemblance with Celts or Celtic Nations in TES lore?


r/teslore 1d ago

What do we know about Redguards and Magic, besides Sword Singing?

19 Upvotes

I can't remember seeing anything about Redguards magic besides Sword Singing. But that's a lost art. Surely Redguards must use "regular" magic too. But do they have any magic guilds or lore about it?


r/teslore 1d ago

Is a Vampire's Drain spell supposed to feed them?

7 Upvotes

So in lore, is the vampiric drain spell supposed to feed a vampire? Or is it just a separate thing and then they gave to drink blood, too?


r/teslore 1d ago

Dragon oaths?

42 Upvotes

There's a line from Nahfahlaar in ESO that I've been thinking about.

"A Dragon's words have power few mortals understand. When we swear an oath, we are bound by it. That is our way. The Dragon Yahgrondu vowed to aid me in a time of need. We must seek him out and remind him of his oath."

Now unfortunately we don't get to test this because Yahgrondu is killed as soon as we find him, but what Nahfahlaar says here sticks out to me. Either he's saying that dragons respect oaths out of a sense of honor and are loath to break them, OR he's saying that when a dragon swears an oath, the Thu'um binds them to fulfill it.

I've been looking into the dialogue of just about every dragon I can find, and so far I can't conclusively tell which is the case. The former is far more likely — we know (most) dragons take honor very seriously. But at the same time, I find the concept of the thu'um binding their promises very interesting and not entirely without potential.

Is there anything in the lore that would prove or disprove this? Please let me know, thanks.


r/teslore 2d ago

Why didn’t Daedra invade Tamriel when the Akavari potentate ruled? Weren’t the dragonfires out because no Dragonborn emperor was alive?

75 Upvotes

I dont know if there’s something I’m missing here.


r/teslore 2d ago

Metatext of Skyrim's Themes and what that means for TES: VI

34 Upvotes

Now nearly 15 years since it's release, analysis of Skyrim's quests, characters, and dialogue has been remarkably thorough (and perhaps over analyzed). However discussion regarding overarching themes in the story and how the choices you can partake in reflect on the world being presented are surprisingly less developed. After playing through vanilla skyrim after nearly 7 years, I believe the biggest metacommentary the game makes is the difficulty of confronting one's past and deciding how to shape one's future. Throughout all of the main quest, faction quests, and DLCs, confronting one's past is brought up repeatedly, and characters and factions have different ways of reconciling this struggle.

TL;DR at bottom.

Main Quest

In the main quest, the Blades are revealed to have gone from proud defenders of the Emperor to a few hold outs on the run. That is until the Dragonborn makes themselves known. When this happens they see a new future for their organization, but this is a future born out of the past. They look to their roots as Akaviri dragonslayers rather than the Emperor's Secret Service. A new purpose born from near ruin. Using one's past to define one's new future.

Meanwhile on the Throat of the World, Paarthurnax and his Greybeards have to also reconcile a new Dragonborn. Notably, the blades want Paarthunax to die for the evil he committed long ago. And to his credit, Big P knows he committed horrid acts in the past, and has to work hard to overcome his urges to subdue and dominate. We know big P is changed, and worked hard to save the Nords in ages past and teach generations of Greybeards, but his past still haunts his legacy.

Alduin also reflects a struggle with his past. As firstborn of Akatosh his role is consume the world and create the new Kalpa, but in the past he forsook this role and instead dominated the Ancient Nords becoming a cruel God-King. When he is careened to the 4th Era he again tries to dominate the world instead of consuming it. Finally after we defeat Alduin in Sovengarde and see his soul absorbed into Atherius, we are able to talk with big P and the Greybeards. They wonder about how this will influence this Kalpa, and if he will return one day still to end it. Despite his dominating past, it appears Alduin is still needed for the role of world eater. Another case of one's past not defining their future.

Companions

The Companions quest notably revolves around the struggle for Kodlak to eschew the curse of Hircine. He is directly confronted with the choice of the old Harbingers to embrace lycanthropy and chooses instead to remove it. This story is one of a man's struggle to escape a group's legacy.

Thieves' Guild

The Thieves' Guild revolves around Karliah's desire to seek revenge on Mercer and Brynjolf's plan to restore the Guild to former glory. For decades the group has been in the dumps and the NPCs are quite vocal about that. Throughout this quest, Karliah's, Mercer, and Dragonborn are forced to contend with Mercer's selfish choices in the past in order to save the Guild. Here the past is something that can be struggled against and fixed. Old sins repented for.

Dark Brotherhood

In this quest, there is an obvious struggle between Astrid's "New Brotherhood" with her as a matriarchal figure, and the Night Mother as the bulwark of the old ways of the Brotherhood. In the end, both were pitted against each other, and Astrid finds out that her ways are inferior to that of the Night Mother. However despite it all, the brotherhood also finds newfound notoriety in slaying the Emperor. Here the past needs to conflict with the present way of doing things, and in the end the past is victorious.

College of Winterhold

Under Saarthal, the College finds the Eye of Magnus and the Thalmor immediately seek to obtain it's power. In a reflection of the mythic story of the sack of Saarthal. The College (like the ancient Nords) find the powerful artifact and it is immediately coveted by the Thalmor (like the Snow Elves). In the end, the Elves first gain the upper hand (both Saarthal and the College are besieged), but they are beaten back, and the artifact is sealed (the Return of Ysgramor, the Psjiic Order taking the Eye). In this example, the past is a reflection of present events, and we are doomed to repeat them.

The Civil War and the World

The Empire reflects a shadow of former glory, now sullied and bruised by the Great War. The Stormcloaks also claim former glory in the form of their worship of Talos. However all around them the world is in ruin. Only Solitude really stands as a prosperous and clean city. It is as if shows the final gasps of what was once the Empire's strength and beauty. Helgen on other hand, well Ralof said "Imperial Walls used to make me feel so safe". Meanwhile Windhelm is built in the ancient ruins of that original city. The stone walls are nearly crumbling with both decay and history. Between them all, the major cities of Markarth, Whiterun, Riften all have walls and avenues, but they are crumbling. The smaller holds fare even worse. The Nords of Skyrim live in the shadows of their past, be it the past glory of the Empire, in the case of the ruined walls of their cities, the past glory of their ancestors as the cities pale in comparison to many of the nordic ruins, or even the past glory of other races in the case of Markarth. Several cities once mentioned in Arena or present even in ESO are now ruined forts occupied by bandits by the time of the 4th Era.

In Skyrim, the civil war is merely stage dressing for the greater themes of decay and how to get out of it. The Empire believes to stay the course, while the Stormcloaks believe change is needed. But in either case, the end result of either side of the Civil war is fairly unchanged. Both sides believe that they will still need to fight the Thalmor soon and so the past Great War is just prelude for the new one on the horizon. But what of the lands they now rule? The land is still ravaged, depopulated, and now freshly bloodied. Different visions of the past can wreak havoc on peace and prosperity, and instead bring suffering and pain the present and future.

Dawnguard

Several characters reflect issues with their past and legacies in this DLC. Arch Curate Vyrthur and his desire for vengeance so great, that he creates a prophecy to wound Auriel and eventually is slain with the help of someone who can fulfil the he made (!). Harkon, once a more present man in his family life is driven mad by this prophecy and it causes him to push away his daughter and wife, who then work to defeat him with the Dragonborn. Isran has to work to overcome his past bristliness and even warms up to a vampire by the end of the DLC. Serena works to stop her father from fulfilling the prophecy, and if the correct dialogue choices are made, she can even give up her vampirism. For the "good coded" characters, the past is something you can grow from, but for the "bad coded" ones, they are doomed to their fate.

Dragonborn

The main quest revolves around foiling Miraak's plan to escape Herma Mora. But in the end, we find ourselves exactly in Miraak's place as Mora's new champion. The past is a lesson that we failed to learn. Additionally, the DLC as a whole is reflection of TES:III. Miraak uses enthralled "dreamers" to bring his return to Solstheim. He's a sharmat-lite. The setting of the island on Solstheim and heavy dunmer themes can also be interpreted as an honoring the game which brought Bethesda back from bankruptcy in 2002. The past sometimes can be happy nostalgia.

Anniversary Edition

An interesting fact about the text on the Anniversary Edition, is that the dragon text translates to: translates to: "By sword, by magic, by darkness, by shout through many years, by heroism we are bound to Skyrim for eternity". Ironically, now nearly 15 years from the release of skyrim. Here were are, "Bound to Skyrim for eternity". Sometimes the present IS the past

TL;DR

I believe the main theme of skyrim woven through nearly all major quests of Skyrim is the struggle to deal with one's past and define one's legacy. I wouldn't be surprised if TES:VI (Sentinel?) has a distinct interwoven theme. Maybe instead of defining a new legacy, the overarching theme will be Overcoming all Odds similar to the Oblivion or We are doomed to even further decay Like in Dark Souls. Maybe even a more out-there theme like Ascension to a new reality like in Bloodborne or Friendship can overcome Fate Like in Deltarune. TES:VI likely won't come out for a few more years, but I'm eager to find out not only the story direction but also how the story is written.


r/teslore 2d ago

you are all wrong about Crafting Motif 41: Celestial Style, it actually has dire metaphysical implications

23 Upvotes

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Crafting_Motif_41:_Celestial_Style for context

Every article I've seen that cites this book connects it to regular followers of the Nedic Cult of the Stars. For example Lore:Aurora says this

The aurora played a significant role in the culture of the Nedic followers of the Cult of the Stars, who in some texts gave it similar importance to the constellations. They modeled their weapons and armor after the constellations and after the aurora. Cuirasses, jerkins, jacks, and robes were linked to the aurora, "protecteth Nirn from roguish particles, ye ill from on high". The cult followers referred to the aurora as the "curtain of light that wrappeth the globe in its folds", and their armor was meant to emulate its nature, in their words: "like the Aurora thou shalt make thy cuirass, that it may wrap thee and ward thee particularly 'gainst weaponry."

but here's hot take, I think this crafting motif isn't for regular members of the Cult of the Stars, but it's literally a guidebook for ascendant Celestials.

The intro to CM41 says this:

As above, so below. This was ever our creed. And thus, O Celestial below, as thou craftest thy arms and thy armor, thou shalt follow ever the guidance and model of ye Constellations that wheel above.

The text is directed towards a Celestial reading it, not towards a member of the Cult of Stars. It invokes "as above, so below," which might be an irl reference but in TES context it brings to mind mannimarco talking about his apotheosis in WWYWTDB.

Patch 2.6.4, where the Celestial Style was released, says this about it:

We've added three new Motifs in this update: Celestial Style: The signature look of the final bosses of the Trials of Craglorn. The weekly quest for each Craglorn Trial will always award one chapter from a subset of chapters specific to that Trial. Aetherian Archive awards the chapters for Axes, Boots, Helmets, Shoulders, and Staves. Sanctum Ophidia awards the chapters for Bows, Daggers, Gloves, Legs, and Swords. Hel Ra Citadel awards the chapters for Belts, Chests, Maces, and Shields. All three quests have a very small chance for the complete motif book.

Those bosses are the Celestial Mage, Serpent, and Warrior in that order. Aetherian Archive has the Mage as the boss, Hel Ra has the Warrior, and Sanctum Ophidia has the Serpent.

If you look at the armor these bosses are wearing, it's clear that the Mage is wearing female Celestial Light Robes, the Warrior is wearing male Celestial Heavy Armor, and the Serpent is wearing male Celestial Medium Armor. They followed the instructions and adorned themselves in their mantle. When Cassipia ascends to become the Exalted Viper, she is wearing a Celestial Medium mask. ESO outfit styles are necessary for apotheosis.

This outfit style isn't for Nedes that follow the Cult of the Stars, it's an instruction for Celestials. The style description says this:

Prepare thyself to adopt the divine appearance of the Constellations Incarnate! As above, so below: this was ever our creed. And thus, O Celestial below, to craft thy arms and armor, thou shalt follow this guidance and these models.

Adopting the divine appearance = wearing the clothes of a god, mantle literally means cloak. Sermon 27 talks about mantles as being the "clothes of the broken map". Anumidium translates to "wearing Anu" in Six Views on the Egg of Time. ESO outfit styles are necessary for apotheosis.

honestly atp I really think it's undeniable that the Celestials are ascended mortals, I think the only reason it seemed so unclear is because Craglorn went so undocumented in uesp lorespace. Not only do characters theorize that that's what they are, but we hear time and time again about secret Nedic rituals that both Exarch Arnoth and Regent Cassipia separately use to become Celestials themselves. The Celestial Thief states she thought the secret of ascension was lost with the Nedes. The Celestials all have mortal names that they call each other. It's very obvious what the situation is, but because most of this stuff went undocumented in lorespace until I picked it up over a decade later, people still think it broke constellations lore


r/teslore 2d ago

Apocrypha A Journey Into Oblivion, volume IV: Ashpit by Acarelos Detelories

5 Upvotes

Author’s note: First, I wish to apologize for the long pause between my writings. A few days after coming back to our plane of existence, I sadly became afflicted with a rather severe case of rockjoint which let me unable to properly hold a quill for a certain amount of time. I am back to full health now, and ready again to tell about my travels.

Compared to Meridia’s Colored Rooms, which I previously visited, the Ashpit was certainly a contrasting sight. Gone were the blood red grass, the lilac water and the crystalline palace of Meridia. The only colors I could see in this place were brown and gray.

The near entirety of the Ashpit could essentially be described as a never-ending dust storm, with no solid ground in sight. As such, I could only move myself via levitation, and even needed a shield to protect me from the particles constantly flowing through the air, otherwise impeding both my vision and breath.

While I could only see clearly for more than a few feet, thanks to my shield, and I couldn’t identify any kind of geographical reference, I still decided to pick a direction, and try to stick to it. I readily admit that, as far as I can assert, I only managed to meet the Prince through sheer blind luck. However, I would not exclude the possibility that Malacath, as the lord of this realm, somehow changed it in a way that led me to him.

My trip was rather uneventful. I could see several buildings and palaces in the distance, but every time I approached one, it revealed itself to be nothing but smoke in the shape of a building. I also encountered several creatures, whose vaporous shapes were constantly changing. All were floating in the torment and seemingly nourishing themselves of the bitter ash flowing through the air. However, I seemed to be of no interest to them, and as such I decided to let them be.

While there was no moving sun, moon, or stars to give me a passage of time, my expedition stretched for what felt like days before I finally found something solid in this tempestuous madness. At some point, I managed to discern a multitude of strongholds, each of them far larger than any I saw back on Tamriel. While the ash storm forbade me from correctly ascertaining the ensemble’s dimensions, I can confidently say it occupied at least half the size of Cyrodiil, maybe even more. The largest one stood at the center, with a fiery, orange glow emanating from it. In my mind, there was no doubt this was the Ashen Forge, Malacath’s own stronghold.

I descended towards the ensemble, and finally my feet touched solid ground again. Thankfully, the ash storm that accompanied me for the entirety of my travel seemed to stop right before the strongholds, relieving me of my need for a shield. After taking several long breaths, I walked in the direction of Malacath’s palace.

Along the way, I met the souls of several departed Orcs, to which I politely introduced myself and explained the reason of my visit every time I was asked. The reactions were mixed, with some being interested in my tales while others were less receptive due to my presence in what they considered a sacred place. They nevertheless showed me the way to Malacath’s stronghold (which I didn’t really need, as the Forge was probably visible from the entire region) and I continued my long march.

When I finally passed the Forge’s doors, I immediately saw the Lord of the Scorned, sat in a giant iron throne. Even then, he was still towering far above me; his tusks were more akin to those of the bristlebacks roaming the island of Solstheim, and his numerous horns were circling his skull, forming a crown of bone fitting for the ruler of this place. Almost from habit due to meeting the previous Princes, I kneeled before him.

“Stand up, mortal. Do you believe yourself in Coldharbour still? The only time you should show the top of your head should be when you smash in your enemy’s face! Do not apologize either! Embrace your mistakes, and learn from them.”

“Now, tell me about yourself, little mortal. Who are you? Why would you, an Imperial, go willingly in a place only favored by my children? I know of your previous visits to the realms of my peers, but I have yet to learn about your motives.”

“So you are a scholar. Interesting. Gaining knowledge is always useful, but knowing how to apply it is much more important in my opinion. Very well, you can ask your questions. But be short; I am not renowned for my patience.”

“My origins? That is a tricky one. It has been so long, even my memories of the event are muddled. I remember being Trinimac, the Golden Champion of the Aldmeri. I was leading my people against a cult of Boethiah, when the Prince of Plots herself appeared before me. Whether she was protecting his followers, or just seized the opportunity to oppose me, I do not know and probably never will. I engaged her in battle, but her cunningness surpassed my own strength.”

“As I laid on the ground, defeated and helpless, Boethiah… corrupted me. I could not describe the experience to you, for I do not know the words, and I doubt you would understand them if I did. However, I can certainly say that I was not eaten and defecated. That version was always too literal.”

“The Deceiver changed me, twisting my very shape to the one you see now. In the process, I could see my own army taking a similar form, their golden skin becoming green and tusks protruding from their enlarged maws. Boethiah then banished me to Oblivion, with my shame as my only companion. My bitterness was so immense that in a fit of rage, I created my own realm from it.”

Malacath then seemed to grow agitated, which I took as a sign of me overstaying my welcome. I thanked him, and left the Ashpit to record everything I experienced. As I write those words, I wonder which realm I should visit next.

-- By Acarelos Detelories

____________________________________

Hi there, first time posting here. I discovered the series very recently and was a bit bummed out to see it cut so abruptly, so I decided to write my own piece as an homage, and maybe even continuing it if that’s allowed. Have a nice day!

Disclaimer: No generative AI of any kind was used for writing this post.


r/teslore 2d ago

Why did the Elnofey become mortals?

9 Upvotes

r/teslore 3d ago

Why aren't there more ESO lore posts?

75 Upvotes

Seriously, there is tons of great lore in that game, especially in almost every expansion and lot's of great stories and characters.

And ESO has a massive community and is a large part of The Elder Scrolls series.

So why is it not discussed here more?

Some of the stuff in the game I would say is even better than some mainline games like Orsinium, Summerset, Elsweyr, Greymoor, High Isle and Necrom expansions or even smaller ones like Murkmire and The Clockwork City which are all at least on the level of the mainline games in terms of lore.

And yes, The Elder Scrolls Online is officially canon and has been since the beginning. They even had tons of discussions with Bethesda devs for the base game and the first few expansions.


r/teslore 3d ago

Could a goblin be Dragonborn?

25 Upvotes

r/teslore 1d ago

I think I figured out how Mehrunes Dagon will attempt his next invasion of Mundus.

0 Upvotes

Since the Avatar of Akatosh bars Daedra from invading Mundus, he'll probably try to use just mortals to carry out his plans next time. He can still communicate with and influence mortals, after all.


r/teslore 2d ago

What daedra or dremora enemy do the altmer hate the most?

5 Upvotes

For the daedra id guess boethiah because of trinimac and multiple conflicts. Second would be nocturnal because of the crystal tower event in eso. As for enemy type, id guess clannfears and spider daedra.


r/teslore 2d ago

Theory about Sheogorath

7 Upvotes

To start I want to say that this is purely a theory I’ve put together going on a various threads, I hope everyone enjoys and finds it interesting

My theory suggests that Lorkhan and Sheogorath are one in the same, first I will explain how I believe this could happen

Lorkhan upset the gods when he formed Nirn, he was then “killed” which is odd as from what I understand no god in the elder scrolls has outright died before, what I propose is that by removing his heart it made him more emotionless and then they furthermore corrupted his form as punishment, similar to Trinimacs transformation into Malacath, part of this punishment was to invert who they are, Lorkhan is perceived as mischievous and tricky, so his reverse was complete and utter order and control, Jyggulug, but following this the Deadra did a similar thing out of fear of of his strange power, which I take as another indication of him being Lorkhan as the Aedra in spite of using power to form Nirn seem to be just as powerful if not more so then Deadra.

Next the Deadra corrupt Jyggulugs form into a opposite again resulting in a dementia ridden bastardisation of the original made 10x more extreme, this would also explain the lack of information about Lorkhan after his heart was removed as the Deadra attempted to erase Jyggulug from history, potentially including his making and “destruction”, explaining why we know nothing about Lorkhan and little about Jyggulug in these periods

Supporting information
Sheogorath from what I recall is the only Deadra to consistently appear as a human, Lorkhan is the god of man
Mancar Camoran is convinced Nirn is of deadric origin, I propose this is because the god of Nirn, Lorkhan became a Deadra, however it is likely that Nirn did not change with its god leading to further confusion
A bit of a stretch but I also propose that the dragon fires is a further push to punish Lorkhan/Sheogorath by preventing any eventual return, while conveniently stopping other similar issues

Thank you for reading, I’m sure there are many holes in this but nonetheless I hope it encourages a healthy debate

Ps sorry for spelling, some things autocorrect


r/teslore 3d ago

Is the Stealth skill magick? Beginning notes & thoughts:

4 Upvotes

First, this question first came from sneaking around in-game and realizing how ridiculous it felt to not be detected by an enemy, right in front of their face, in a medium-lit room.

Two introductory notes:

  1. I searched this sub and other sources of lore, mostly UESP, and didn’t find a conclusive answer.

  2. I have very little deeper TES lore knowledge outside of a casual play through of Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (sorry, Daggerfall & Arena).

Notes so far:

There is a book called “The Philosophy of Stealth: How Not to be Seen” (from ESO, which I haven’t played) that briefly describes stealth as losing individuality and blending into the background, as fundamentally the skill of “not being noticed”. From the text, I would consider it reasonably implied that this is a purely physical* skill, with some mental comprehension and exertion (Intelligence stat?**). This leaves the interpretation fairly open, despite it being literally stated as a “philosophy” in the title, which seems misleading and reductive. This may depend on two questions:

  • in TES, is there a physical/spiritual duality as in many earth mythologies, or is there a matter/energy continuum of forms? I.e., is everything - gods, souls, skeevers, and sweetrolls - made of the same “stuff” taking different forms? If so, then Stealth could be both a physical and magickal skill (because they’d both be forms of the same “stuff”).

** is the Intelligence stat in TES, which determines magickal abilities, directly connected to mental prowess and learning, therefore implying at least a restricted form of “magick” for all intelligent beings by virtue of their cognition, their ability to think? If so, this would also lend credence to Stealth, as defined by the Philosophy of Stealth book, as possibly a magickal skill.

Other things come to mind, but my memory isn’t serving me and I can’t find direct sources for what’s coming up:

A primary subject is the Skeleton Key, Nocturnal’s artifact, and the lore surrounding its powers. Mercer Frey was able to use it to become invisible, and there was some in-game background about it being a key to unlock hidden potential. Several possibilities were hinted at, and shown accessible by Frey directly, but what I remember of the descriptions felt like the Key was being teased as an artifact with untold chaotic abilities that have yet to be discovered. The possible relevance of this is that the Key, and its ties to Nocturnal, the Evergloam, and Nocturnal’s skill-based patronage of thieves, could hint at Stealth being an access to magick, even Daedric magick. I admit, this is a reach, borne of not finding many sources on this subject so far. However, we have other instances of Daedric magick being present in the world in ordinary, concrete ways - the existence of the Orcs as a creation of Malacath, for example.

Does anyone else have any theories, background info, or commentary on this subject? Definitely interested in more thought-out contributions.


r/teslore 3d ago

Lots of Stones in Towers in the Deadlands…

12 Upvotes

So on Nirn the Towers with their Stones are used to exert and stabilise a desired influence/idea on the land around it, right? The Earthbones “emit” or are laws of nature in a more abstract sense while the Towers with their Stones shape the actual substance of the world, keeping it from dissolving back into Creatia in the absence of a strong active will like that of a Daedric Prince.

Could it be that Dagon’s invasion of Tamriel uses the same Towers-with-Stones method - for once literal towers (Sigil Keeps) with literal stones (Sigil Stones) - to stabilise its gates into the Mundus?

The Sigil Stone breaches the weakened barrier; together with the Sigil Keep (which is always a tower), it then extends Deadlandish reality into the Tamrielic endpoint, maintaining the connection and the gate and more: Deadlandish talons jut out of the ground; the weather changes. Local reality is altered to suit the masters of the respective Sigil Keep.

That’s something I’d like to believe, anyway. The problem I see with that is that the Sigil Keeps aren’t exactly sitting on any sort of Earthbonian Leyline Nexus but in a different realm altogether…


r/teslore 4d ago

Why are the Aedra so disconnected and inactive towards Nirn compared to the Daedra who are near constantly meddling with mortal affairs? Do the Aedra dislike mortals for being Lorkhans offspring?

84 Upvotes

r/teslore 4d ago

Do you believe the Emperor assassination theory?

53 Upvotes

It was said the Emperor ordered his own death due to the white-gold concordat, and that he disappointed the people of Skyrim for signing it, even though he was forced to. He considered himself incompetent and wanted a younger Emperor to take his place.

In the Katariah we even see a room with an alchemy table, and two bodies by a sailor. It is either a sickbay, or he was a backup assassin in case the dark brotherhood failed.