r/AirForce • u/Low-Top4529 • 11h ago
Question LOC
Got a LOC today. Just curious if there’s any chance at a rebuttal, basically I had a three level go get us tools for a flightline job and I had no knowledge that he’d never checked them out in TC Max. To put it in perspective this guy is like four task away from becoming a five level.
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u/McStizly 11h ago
Unless there’s more to the story I don’t see how this is your fault. Yeah the NCO takes blame when airmen fuck up but this isn’t really a corrected by inspected by situation this guy just seems like an idiot.
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u/Low-Top4529 9h ago
Literally that’s the story I told the guy to grab the stuff which he is fully qualified on everything ctk and TC Max related. But he’s still a 3 level so “the responsibility fell on me” I had no knowledge until we got back that he never actually signed the stuff out.
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u/McStizly 9h ago
Yeah I’m fighting that all day, absolute BS they’re hitting you with it. Just know that fighting it and succeeding will make that airmen not like you (maybe) and whoever wrote you the LOC out to get you, which is toxic but just how people petty enough to do that are.
It’s called progressive discipline.
LOCs are pointless though and don’t follow you to your next base, if they even put it in your pif. Any good supervisor just wipes those things when you PCS. It’s all nonsense unless you’re committing crimes
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u/GreenAccident3004 9h ago
Isn't a 3-level, who's signed off on specific tasks, permitted to perform those tasks unsupervised anymore?
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u/McStizly 9h ago
If it’s a diagonal sure but if it’s an X it needs two people. And people usually do things in groups. MX is rarely solo, no reason a 3 level should be alone outside of monotonous shit like servicing on a skeleton shift.
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u/GreenAccident3004 9h ago
Classify a fuel leak, t-shoot a hydraulic leak, popped C/B... all sorts of stuff can be done by a 3-level, as long as they are task qualified on inter-related aspects of the primary task.
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u/TheVerginator All Purpose Gorilla 8h ago edited 7h ago
If you're signed off on the task, you're qualified to do the task unsupervised (unless it's an X job, but that should be obvious). Sounds like they should be de-certified and re-trained on CTK related tasks.
Were you the one that trained and signed them off on the task? Signing their training off if they clearly weren't ready is the only angle I could see for issuing paperwork to you for this.
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u/af_cheddarhead Retired 11h ago edited 7h ago
Was the 3-level ever trained on checking out tools? If yes, what does the LOC say you should have done? Because once a 3-level is trained on a task a certain level of independent action is needed and expected.
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u/iwontpasstheball 10h ago
I second this. “Use and maintain hand tools” (and sub categories) is a 5 level task in our CFETP which went over all things CTK. Either the person that trained/signed them off should be under the microscope or they are signed off, had proper training, and should be the only one in trouble
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u/manny3574 8h ago
Honestly I think this falls on the CTK personnel, unless you own the ctk area. The ctk should ensure the tool is properly checked out and turned in, if the tool was never checked out and it was returned, then the person at ctk got a lucky break.
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u/lethalnd12345 Retired 11h ago
Of course you can rebut and submit matters on your behalf. See 36-2907
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u/TurnspitCur Metals Tech? Loadmaster? Emergency Management? 10h ago
Did CTK just not hit the issue button?
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u/iwontpasstheball 9h ago
Some career fields have self CTK/TCMAX (NDI for example) where individuals issue out tools themselves and have someone else check it in for them when they get back
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u/Low-Top4529 9h ago
Self service CTK
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u/Weary_Alternative778 6h ago edited 6h ago
We kinda had one of those. But it was us checking out tools to ourselves. But what the hell? What do you do if you find something wrong with the tool that isn't documented? Was the 3 level aware of what they should do in that situation? Last time I checked 21-101 it said tools should be controlled by CTK not able to be freely grabbed by whoever and up to them if they decide to scan it. If what you say is accurate there's a process failure here. Even at my old shop where we checked tools out to ourselves we still had a second person in place double checking.
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u/Low-Top4529 6h ago
We have a CTK manager but only for dayshift, if you’re not on day shift you just go in and grab the tools yourself and check them out in TC Max and even then if the persons busy or not in there you log in and check them out yourself.
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u/Weary_Alternative778 5h ago
Sounds kind of like my old shop. At minimum we had the shift lead supervising tool check out. Even if CTK wasn't their primary responsibility we had the CTK people and NCOs train them on proper check out procedures. It was an interesting dyanmic because we all had to be at least somewhat familiar with all programs that go into an MX shop while being self accountable. Not gonna lie it was kind of rough.
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u/KanmarArchitect 2h ago
Ohh that being the case. The loc should land on whoever made the decision to not have ctk personnel. Lost tools must be daily occurrence.
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u/FroyoGlum9976 10h ago
Not mx, but this seems to be an extreme reason to give paperwork. Even if they're a 3 level, they needed to speak up if they'd never done it before.
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u/halfsquelch 9h ago
Is your support section staffed? How did they just let him walk off with the tools?
Errand boy is literally a 3 level job. If anyone should be getting an LOC it is the person on duty in support that handed out tools without checking them out.
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u/GreyLoad Maintainer 6h ago
Mx story as old as time
Just sign it and take ur licks
U will get more paperwork in this career
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u/foolishgamble 6h ago
Write the NCO an LOR for not supervising you supervising the Airmen, clearly his fault as part of the leadership chain. /s
All jokes aside, ADC and the Shirt are good resources.
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u/ActualSpiders Commie Chameleon 10h ago
The possibility that this guy just didn't know the tools needed to be checked out doesn't wash, so I'll discard that. Otherwise, if he had been trained in TCMax & had a brain fart, that's on him. If he didn't know how to do it, but didn't ask for help or come back to you & walked out with the tools anyway, that's also on him. The only way I see you getting burnt on this is if it was *your* particular job to teach him.
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u/Low-Top4529 9h ago
He is already fully qualed and signed off on everything CTK and TC Max related. I wasn’t in the position of teaching him how to do any of that, I just asked him to go grab tools for the job and had no knowledge until the stern talking to by my section chief that these tools were never checked out.
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u/ActualSpiders Commie Chameleon 7h ago
As everyone else has said, check in with ADC before anything else, but yeah - I'd contest this. Dude knew better and you're not his parent.
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u/VeryGoodF35 They done got ya boy working Raptors now, ya hear? 9h ago
Did you get a TDV from not having your tools or is your unit in the limelight with QA?
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u/Low-Top4529 9h ago
No we have our own ctk the tools were just taken from it and not signed out that they were gone. Our job ran into turnover so the person checking it noticed that they were gone and not signed out. Nothing involving qa all an in house incident
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u/VeryGoodF35 They done got ya boy working Raptors now, ya hear? 5h ago
Ohhh, gotcha, so you had to take 3-level Snuffy's word for having the tools actually checked out. Yeah, get yo self over to ADC and see what they can scrounge up. Sounds like some BS that you're just catching some strays over.
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u/Confident_Cheetah_81 7h ago
If he's only a few tasks from becoming a 5-level, has he had issues before? If so, why was a paper trail not started? Was progressive discipline not used?
If he's fucking up, hold him accountable.
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u/No-Tale-1499 5h ago
I’m confused. Does LOC not still mean “Letter of Counseling?” It’s basically a written warning. It documents that you were counseled about something that you did or didn’t do. Yeah, this sounds like nothing you could have prevented and so, unless there’s more to the story, even if it did go in the file, it’s a nothing burger.
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u/No-Tale-1499 5h ago
Oh and I would always write a rebuttal…but get some help with it from ADC or a reputable mentor. Tell your side of the story but very respectfully.
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u/cj20h49g 8h ago
Why are you getting it if he was the person responsible? Also go to Area Defense Counsel to get help from them.
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u/LordgodEighty8 7h ago
Trust me bro. that LOC is not actually going to the shirt or being filed. If so your supervison needs to grow the fuk up
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u/UnCleverTech 11h ago
As always, get help from the Area Defense Counsel (ADC). State the circumstances without emotion in your rebuttal. If it's truly not your fault, the issuing NCO should understand and withdraw the LOC. If you did make a mistake that isn't mentioned here: own up to it, describe what you'll do to prevent it again and provide evidence this is an isolated incident and you're an otherwise above-average troop.