r/AskReddit • u/DrCompenomics • 13h ago

Who’s the best real-life example of “you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain,” and what happened?

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485

u/Steamshipper 13h ago

Lance Armstrong

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u/benneladoo 11h ago

Leave him alone , he won cycle race while on drugs

When i was on drugs ,i couldn't even find my bike, let alone ride it 

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u/siderinc 10h ago edited 5h ago

And loads of people that finished behind him did the same.

I once heard that if they want to award the first clean racer it was someone that placed 37th or something.

Edit:spelling

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u/Various-Dust285 8h ago

As a cycling fan, this is true.

What makes us all hate Lance more than any one else is his attitude. Lance was an ass even before the issues, and he did a media tour of "how dare you accuse me of drugs" before he got tested. Most other cyclists were like "yea, you got me, well done"

Also, it's WHY Lance got caught that also makes him an ass. Sparks notes version

  • His strongest teammate in his early career was Floyd Landis
  • Landis was caught doping much earlier than Armstrong, and Armstrong already started his "how could he? I would never?" holier-than-thou BS.
  • Landis also had a bit of a "Who? Me? No" attitude, but not nearly as much as Armstrong.
  • Landis served a two year (this is from memory?) exile from cycling. When he was ready to come back, he wanted to be back on Lance's team, they were a great team before. Lance continued with his "I won't be associated with cheaters" BS, and basically told him to F off.
  • Landis was fed up with Armstrong's hypocrisy and slander and such, so he sent evidence that the whole team was doping back in the 2000s

Even now, Lance is still pretty arrogant and likes to toot his own horn a lot, he feels a lot like Michael Jordan in that respect, to give a more well-known reference. He keeps his grudges, he doesn't acknowledge the acheivements of others very well. Like MJ, he was clearly a GOAT for his era, but the sport has moved on. Cycling currently has a guy who is clearly going to be the GOAT. He's only 27 and is already debatably the best ever, but Lance keeps talking about himself and downplays what Tadej is doing.

For cycling fans, the real problem is that the physios, trainers, teams, and such weren't really punished, so some of them are still in the sport. Who was administering the drugs and overseeing all that?

For non-cycling fans, as Bill Burr said, all Lance Armstrong did for me was raise millions of dollars for cancer.

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u/Patecatli 7h ago

Not to mention the attacks and lawsuits against anyone who claimed he was doping.

He demanded that Trek droo Greg Lemond after Greg had raised concerns about a team doctor.

Basically Armstrong was a narcissist, and he attacked anyone who went against him.

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u/Various-Dust285 5h ago

Greg was a guest on The Roadman podcast, great episode. The parts about doping and such were great. He shits on Armstrong a good bit. You love to see it.

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u/supx3 4h ago

If I could somehow forgive him for the other stuff I'd never forgive him for what he did to Lemond.

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u/donitdotis 3h ago

all Lance Armstrong did for me was raise millions of dollars for cancer.

didn't most of the money go to some bullshit that didn't truly help people?

it always sounds beautiful if you hear "oh he raised 500 million for cancer", but i think there was some research done and most of the money went to org maintenance and shit like that.

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u/truthorproof 16m ago edited 11m ago

Armstrong’s attitude and doping scandal killed a good portion of the US cycling scene’s momentum too. The sport was growing, and stage racing in the US really took off around the Lance Armstrong era. Now, as the people who got into cycling in the 80s to early 2000s age out of 1/2/pro competition, it’s been struggling as a sport. Many of the local and national stage races have ended as the event-founders move on or retire, or registrations dwindle, and the path to the pro scene has rubber-banded back to ‘move to Europe at a very young age.’ We maintained some crits and circuit races, but stage racing lost a lot of traction in the eyes of the public and the cycling community.

That’s not entirely Lance Armstrong’s fault, but the whole scandal about him really shaped the face of the US cycling scene. Without a ‘clean’ performance record, Lance’s personality shone through — and as you said, it’s not the best look 🙂‍↕️

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u/rotorain 5h ago

If anyone here hasn't seen the 2017 documentary 'Icarus' I highly recommend it. It's about a dude at the top of amateur cycling who noticed there's a big gap between like 15-20 guys at the top and everyone else and suspects that they're doping. He decided to try to dope as well to see if he can catch up to that group and make a documentary about how it all works to expose the issues with the drug testing systems and the prevalence of PEDs in cycling.

It ends up blowing up into a massive whistleblowing operation that exposed the Russian Federation's infiltration of the World Anti-Doping Agency and the government sponsored cheating program that a huge portion of Russian athletes were pressured into doing both for the Olympics and just general global sporting.

The doc starts kinda crazy then goes fucking nuclear and the best part is that very few parts are recreations of events or whatever, it's all the real people in the shit while it was actually happening because they were already recording for the original doc and just never stopped as things went off the rails.

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u/jpcardier 1h ago

Icarus is an amazing documentary.

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u/KaraAliasRaidra 10h ago

Dang, it's like that Jimmy Neutron episode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDyxa0k0jg0

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u/ramborage 5h ago

So basically the equivalent of the MVP in baseball from like 1998 to 2004

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u/donitdotis 3h ago

the difference is the team of lance did the doping to an extent the other teams very likely didn't.

they were doped out of their mind.

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u/tremblemortals 30m ago

While it's true lots of cyclers did (and probably still do) the same stuff, and while others have pointed out Armstrong's strong self-interest and his defamation and suing of anyone who questioned him, it's should also be pointed out that he wasn't just doping: he was organizing the doping for the whole team. He was the one in charge, making sure everyone took the drugs, setting up protocols and backup plans in case of any random inspections, stuff like that. Armstrong wasn't just a participant with a god complex; he was a basically the boss of the illegal operation while also participating and having a god complex.

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u/Thedingo6693 9h ago

Livestrong has also generated more than $500 million in funds, i dont know if that all goes to research, but his winning (because of cheating) generated a lot of money for cancer research.

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u/piedra96 8h ago

And Lance at times also put money donated to the cancer cause directly into his own pocket.

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u/TheeAntelope 5h ago

No he didn't. Lance put his own money into Livestrong (millions of dollars). He took no salary from Livestrong.

Livestrong may have aided him in getting more money elsewhere, but that's hardly saying that he took money donated to the charity directly into his own pocket.

I get that he was a dick and that his attitude towards doping (which everyone was doing) makes him a target, but there's never been any evidence (and actually there is evidence contrary) that he embezzles or takes money from Livestrong or any charity he is or was associated with.

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u/piedra96 4h ago

I didn’t say he took a salary from Livestrong.

It’s a pretty simple formula: persuade wealthy fans to make a $25-35k donation to the cancer-fighting cause in exchange for a ride with Lance. Participants no doubt assume 100% of their donation is going to the charity. Skim $5 to 10k off each donation and chalk it up to “appearance fees.” Be vague about this accounting with the charity board.

And stop with the “everyone was doping” bs. Other dopers weren’t holding themselves up as global beacons of hope while destroying people’s careers. The rules were different for Lance - he was a protected entity, and protected at the highest levels.

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u/TheeAntelope 2h ago

Lance Armstrong took no money from Livestrong (these get reported to the IRS and are subject to audit). He donated over $5 million to Livestrong. So why would he take 5-10k from Livestrong donations only to donate them back into the company?

Unless you think he embezzled multiple millions ($5k at a time, apparently) and just donated SOME of it back?

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u/piedra96 2h ago

Hero complex and PR. Give the world the headline “Lance donates $5 million to Livestrong,” then claw as much of that back as possible through appearance fees. $10k per rider adds up fast when you have dozens of riders in an event and you do multiple events, no?

If you don’t believe this, ask yourself why such a selfless and generous man needed appearance fees at all?

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u/TheeAntelope 2h ago

He got appearance fees for his own appearances, not via donations to Livestrong. They just paid him directly. That's not embezzlement. Do you honestly think him getting appearance fees for speaking is just evil or something? Youre mad he got rich? Kinda pathetic.

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u/piedra96 2h ago

I never said the donations were to Livestrong. The donations were to the charity rides, and they were not transparent with donors that some of that money would go to Lance.

And who gives a shit about legality? This is about morality. Are you daft or just a lawyer?

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u/DistinctSmelling 6h ago

Only to find out that the rest of them were on drugs too. Our roided-out guy still beat out the other roided-out guys. (Quip from Bill Burr)

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u/donitdotis 3h ago

the others didn't do it that extreme.

also amercians always had this weird protective behaviour towards him.

even when everyone knew he doped, americans still tried to deny it.

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u/Common_North_5267 3h ago

It wasn't what he did its how he treated people.

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u/Salty-Spring7096 1h ago

That'd be fine if he didn't strongarm people who were initially trying to expose him, including journalists and fellow athletes. He didn't just cheat, he was shitty about it to others in the sport.

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u/DtownBronx 11h ago

He was never the hero, he just sued or threatened to sue everyone that would show who he really was

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u/duvet- 6h ago

I guess you weren't around during the yellow Livestrong bracelet craze. A charity yellow plastic bracelet that became so popular there were knockoffs. He and his attachment to that was huge.

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u/Tasty_Cry_3844 5h ago

He was actually a hero. The world praised him. Livestrong bands were so popular that they were being resold on eBay for $40+

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u/dpezpoopsies 11h ago

Agreed completely, though, now that the dust has settled, it sounds like he got a pretty raw deal on all that. Doping was so engrained in the culture then, essentially none of the tour de france top finishers of that era were clean. Lance just had farther to fall than anyone else.

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u/barra333 11h ago

That is a fair point if it was just about the drugs. The really shitty thing is how aggressively he went after anyone who questioned his legitimacy. Like, affecting people's lives levels of harassment.

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u/ReallyUnlikable 10h ago

He did not get a "raw deal." He's a fraud and threw a very public temper tantrum when he was found out. Just because everyone was blood doping doesn't mean he didn't deserve accountability, he lied and sued for years.

17

u/mattromo 9h ago

If you compare him to sprinter Ben Johnson your point is reinforced. Johnson was banned and shamed when he was caught doping in the 1988 100m race but later it was found 7 of the 8 in that race were doping or heavily tied to doping. Johnson took his lumps, and later re-emerged not as a bitter figure but instead poking fun at his situation.

11

u/ReallyUnlikable 9h ago

All Armstrong had to do was admit it and to this day still denies it. The people defending him must be too young to have witnessed what a massive one nut dickhead Lance was. He was caught doping TWICE and managed to wiggle away from the first accusations.

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u/Rough_Buddy6903 9h ago

If he had just admitted it instead of ruining people's lives to hide it, he would still have his titles. But he is a narcissist who decided to go scorched earth. He was one of the most beloved athletes of the early 2000s, and he could have simply said he did it and people would have forgiven him.

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u/animal_chin9 8h ago

He was so beloved. Those yellow livestrong bracelets were everywhere.

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u/FireflyBSc 8h ago

It would be a raw deal if he wasn’t such a raging asshole. He’s insulted actual GOAT Pogacar for showing good sportsmanship, and is just the absolute worst representation of the sport.

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u/piedra96 8h ago

He got exactly what he deserved. Dude was openly bribing the UCI and destroying other people’s careers - Lemond, Andreu, O’Reilly. Other dopers weren’t doing that shit, and other dopers weren’t protected by the cycling industry because their cancer story made them a golden goose.

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u/bullet50000 7h ago

Oh absolutely not, because we have examples of riders who took it on the chin and just kept going, like Michael Rassmussen, Ivan Basso, Levi Leipheimer, and Alberto Contador. Shockingly you're able to do this without having your sponsor rep leave threats on the answering machine of people accusing you of doping, or attempting to destroy the reputation of the only remaining American TDF Winner

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u/animal_chin9 8h ago

The Bill Burr bit on him is so funny. Lance actually got in contact with Bill afterwards to thank him.

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u/EFreethought 3h ago

I think Bill Burr is another hero who became a villain.

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u/animal_chin9 3h ago

That's fair. I stopped listening to his podcast ever since the Riyadh Comedy Festival thing.

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u/donitdotis 3h ago

"when is enough enough"

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u/michellethestan 4h ago

I saw a person in the wild wearing a LiveStrong bracelet the other day. I really wish I could have asked them many, many questions.

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u/tehdamonkey 3h ago

Go watch some of the documentaries and the interviews with Greg LeMond. Armstrong was just not cheating, he was destroying others to hide it.

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u/hdgdl_mofo 2h ago

And cancer would have been the perfect excuse to a heroic death.

•

u/crackphillip 43m ago

Man the fact that anybody gave a fuck at any point about a cyclist is crazy. He’s gonna hold that W at least.

0

u/TheWingus 7h ago

"Look, he was a sociopath on a bike! If he were a CEO he'd probably be putting shit in the water... just let him ride up the hill! Also, look at the results, the top like 30 guys are all on roids! So our roided up guy beat your roided up guy!"