Who’s the best real-life example of “you either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain,” and what happened?

[u/DrCompenomics]

[u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Marshal Petain of France.

Probably the most famous French general of the first world war. Known as the Lion of Verdun and led the victorious French in throwing back the Germans over an incredibly bloody 9 months. If you know anything about how important Verdun was in the history of western Europe you know this was a big deal.

If he had died in the 20s or early 30s he would be be one of France's great heroes.

Instead he lived and led the nazi collaborationist Vichy regime after the fall of France in the second war, and now he is collaborationist scum you wouldn't cross the street to piss on if he were on fire.

[u/nolok → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

If he had died in the 20s or early 30s he would be be one of France's great heroes.

This part is I think the one that other countries (and even younger French people) will have a hard time grasping the depth of.

WW1 was a massive impact on France. It was a trauma that led us being scared of war again which led in part to what happened in ww2. And Verdun was the absolute shit show of ww1, the thing that terrified France personified by one name.

And Petain was the hero of it, as much as such a thing can have hero. What does that mean? Nothing. Everything. It's the one name we could clang to. If he died before ww2 happened, he would be high up there in our top 10 maybe top 5 of "heroes" for that legacy alone. Justified or not doesn't matter, the guy represented France holding the line and not being destroyed and finished. He's the "ils ne passeront pas" / "they shall not pass" guy .

Then he turned around and betrayed everything ? And not even surrendered but doing a shitty armistice forcing our forces to turn on the rest of the allies, and then he cooperate with the nazis? Forget the fall from grace for him, for the French people this was as shitty and "all is doomed" as it gets.

It's also, on the opposite, another reason for our absolute worship of De Gaulle. Yes there is what he did and the resistance and saving us from nazis and saving us from America and saving us from the Soviets and the constitution and sovereignty and European reconciliation and blablabla but deep down, he's also the guy that gave us an out, that allowed us to say we're not the country of Petain, we're the country of De Gaulle.

[u/Tim-oBedlam → u/nolok]

Really good comment.

This obviously won't be news to you, but I think a lot of other countries, ESPECIALLY Americans, don't realize the shattering effect WW1 had on France. Around 30% of all French men in their 20s when the war broke out were dead by the war's end. That's an entire generation lost in the trenches. And that's *dead*: the 70% of the survivors includes people who were gravely wounded, or perhaps survived with no injuries but had the lifelong trauma of seeing their friends Claude, Jean-Pierre, and Jacques blown to bits in front of them.

[u/MaximumFlow7491 → u/Tim-oBedlam]

yeah, 70% of all French military aged males were killed or wounded in WWI

to put things in perspective: imagine the bros you went to high school with, now imagine the vast majority of them dying or maimed in a period of 4 years

[u/Tim-oBedlam → u/MaximumFlow7491]

The other statistic that I recall about France in WW1: they had approximately 1.4 million killed in action.

That is roughly equal to ALL USA war dead in our ENTIRE history going back to colonial times, counting both sides of the American Civil War. In four years.

Most of USA war deaths were the Civil War (750,000, more or less), and WW2 (a bit over 400,000).

[u/GrumpyFalstaff → u/Tim-oBedlam]

Holy shit, that's an insane statistic. Did not know that thanks

[u/nikogrande → u/GrumpyFalstaff]

If you’re any sort of history buff at all, I cannot recommend enough Blueprint for Armageddon from Hardcore History by Dan Carlin. No story of any war anywhere has gripped my soul like that one…. Note: it’s 24 hours long

[u/Gnl_Winter → u/MaximumFlow7491]

And now imagine after that : the Spanish flu epidemic happens.

The world of 1914-1920 in western Europe is simply the most horrific time to be alive. The sheer amount of grief one had to live through is simply unfathomable.

[u/RumHamComesback → u/Tim-oBedlam]

People really criticize European leaders for giving into Hitler but the reality is nobody wanted another WW1 because it was so deeply traumatizing with so much loss. The problem was they expected Hitler to stop because he felt the same way but instead he kept going.

[u/Eldias → u/RumHamComesback]

This is why comments on reddit bemoaning "appeasement" drive me crazy. The heads of Europe would have been dragged in to the streets and shot had they openly talked about war to stop Germany a single moment sooner than they did.

[u/ZirePhiinix → u/Tim-oBedlam]

WW1 was a real meat grinder. Literally blown to bits was how cannons worked. Those are the lucky ones. If there were trees then you get to eat a face full of splinters mixed in dirt and guts, and die from infections instead.

[u/procrastambitious → u/nolok]

I went down a rabbit hole on Petain. There are organisations in France literally called something like "organisation for the rehabilitation of Petain's legacy". They're all right-wing lunatics as far as I know, but this exists.

[u/WiggyDiggyPooPoo → u/nolok]

"They shall not pass"

It's a tie for me between Gandalf vs The Balrog, or The French Divers in World War Z when they broke through a wall and a horde of Zombies attacked.

[u/EwOkLuKe → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

Yep, he went from national hero to a pariah and criminal in the span of 2 wars

[u/tibbles1 → u/GCU_ZeroCredibility]

There's a great story about how Charles de Gaulle visited General John Pershing (American WW1 hero who was very old and semi-senile at this point) near the end of WW2. General Pershing asked De Gaulle how his old friend Marshall Petain was doing.

De Gaulle, not having the heart to tell Pershing the truth, just said that the last he heard, the Marshall was well.

[u/hashtagthoughtbomb]

Jim Jones was a civil rights activist in his early years, and his church The People's Temple had a fully integrated congregation. He also set up a soup kitchen in his church and donated groceries and clothing to those in need.

He was awarded a Martin Luther King Jr Humanitarian Award in 1977, less than two years before ordering the mass suicide murder of over 900 people in the Jonestown Massacre.

[u/totalperspec → u/hashtagthoughtbomb]

Fred Phelps was also a big proponent of African American civil rights before becoming the rabidly homophobic Westboro Baptist Church guy we remember from the Iraq War years.

[u/arcodash → u/totalperspec]

I really wonder if he truly had a change of heart in his last years (he was excommunicated from the church for this) or if it was just dementia.

[u/giftedearth → u/hashtagthoughtbomb]

A lot of the people who died at Jonestown were Black. Jones sucked them into his cult by genuinely helping them. 

[u/justprettymuchdone → u/giftedearth]

Yeah, I think this often goes unremarked upon and it's an essential part of the story. Jones was a megalomaniacal, obsessive madman, but he also led a church that dedicated itself to helping people. The reason the elderly signed over their checks to him, early on, was because he was using that money to care for them! He always had darkness to him, but the step by step devolution of the Peoples' Temple is in part the story of a man who took a church of faithful Christians and carefully, slowly taught them to worship him instead.

[u/thirty7inarow → u/justprettymuchdone]

I do wonder if that was his intent from the start, if at some point he just decided he liked the power, or if it was a slow progress of decisions that got him to where he was at the end.

Like was he always skimming the coffers and propping himself up as the hero? Or did he start out genuinely just wanting to make a difference?

[u/justprettymuchdone → u/thirty7inarow]

I read an incredible biography on him, Raven. I highly recommend it. The biographer made a really solid, I think, argument that he was always self-aggrandizing and narcissistic, but that he was initially more or less content with power and control over smaller groups of people, but the addiction grew.

It was one of those things where initially he was more or less happy that he had control over his wife, and then his small congregation, and then a larger congregation, and it just sort of kept snowballing and then in the end, nothing was ever quite enough for him.

Hence Jonestown.

It was a place where he was fully in control and could completely isolate And cut off everyone there from the outside world. He decided what reality was, only him. And he could keep everyone from escaping no matter how bad it got.

And in the end, even that was never quite enough.

[u/paupaupaupau → u/thirty7inarow]

My sense is that narcissism is like addiction. That the trait is always there, but the need only gets stronger. And at some point, it overwhelms everything else about who you were.

[u/TargaryensRock → u/giftedearth]

I watched a Doc about Jonestown a long time ago and one survivor, a white gentleman, had a black partner and biracial child and felt the cult was the only place they were accepted as a family. He was away when it went down; he lost his wife and child to the events at Jonestown. How awful that finding a community that accepted their family during a time and place that didn't do so turned into a worse kind of hell. It's own unique kind of evil..

[u/Hellknightx → u/hashtagthoughtbomb]

People always remember Jonestown for the mass flavor aid poisoning murders. But something that doesn't seem to get talked about as much is how Jim Jones sent armed gunmen to shoot and murder Leo Ryan, a sitting US Congressman.

Leo Ryan was an incredible person, too. While a member of Congress, he was the chairman of a committee to oversee prison reform in the US. Because he was such a cool dude, he opted to use a fake name to insert himself into Folsom state prison as an inmate just so he could get a closer look at prison conditions.

He also took a job as a substitute teacher just to document poor conditions in inner-city LA schools. He flew a team to Jonestown to investigate people being held there against their will. As he was leaving with rescued hostages, he was ambushed by gunmen sent by Jim Jones, who shot up his plane and killed everyone on board.

[u/Vondi → u/hashtagthoughtbomb]

>mass suicide 

It was mass murder. People were made to drink the poison at gunpoint.

[u/FappatoriUniti → u/Vondi]

This isn’t correct either. The most accurate title would be a mass casualty event or, more commonly, mass murder-suicide. There certainly were willing and eager participants, in as much as there were those who were forced and coerced. Due to the state of the bodies upon recovery, however, we have no way of ascertaining the numbers.

[u/hotpocketsinitiative → u/FappatoriUniti]

It also is likely that most who drank willingly didn’t think it was real. Jim Jones was known for faking suicide attempts as a loyalty test. They didn’t have to start forcing people until they started seeing people actually die from drinking the flavoraid

[u/FappatoriUniti → u/hotpocketsinitiative]

Lots of people believed it was real, just as lots of people didn’t. You make a good point but the event isn’t as simple as one man hoodwinking a thousand.

[u/Pheehelm]

Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church spent much of the 60s and 70s as a prominent civil rights lawyer.

A previous time I commented this a dozen or so people thought they were going to be the first person to reply Jim Jones was also a civil rights activist.

[u/suburban_ennui75 → u/Pheehelm]

Yeah, this story always amazes me. Like, what happened bro?

[u/Cent1234 → u/suburban_ennui75]

"Progressive in terms of black civil rights" doesn't necessarily translate into "progressive in terms of gay rights." Or any other element of the broad umbrella of 'progressivism.' And vice versa, for that matter.

[u/Th3B4dSpoon → u/Cent1234]

Funnily enough, I remember learning he actually became gay friendly very late in his life when his memory was starting to fail him. Reportedly he was kind and cheerful to the gay rights protestors outside the Westboro compound at that point.

[u/Wilgrove → u/Th3B4dSpoon]

Huh, that's kinda weird. It always seems like people tend to become more aggressive and hostile as dementia progresses. Yet with Fred Phelps, the opposite happened.

[u/HalfSoul30 → u/suburban_ennui75]

Leaded gasoline, apparently

[u/thaddeusd → u/suburban_ennui75]

So much of the counter culture of the 60s and 70s was a search for truth, and that included religious and psudeo-religious fevor. For every functional commune developed you got two to three cults popping up espousing every extremist and/or evangelical view under the sun.

Now put greed, frustration, and impatience into the equation.

[u/DirtyScrubs → u/thaddeusd]

Yeah whats wild to me is the people of the free love movement became horrible boomers who only care about themselves. Its a generalization I know but I bet most of their younger selves would hate who they became.

[u/Rasp_Lime_Lipbalm → u/suburban_ennui75]

He realized he was gay and hated himself so much he formed an antigay church and dragged his whole family into it.

[u/willclerkforfood → u/Rasp_Lime_Lipbalm]

Tale as old as time…

[u/GracelessOne → u/suburban_ennui75]

Some people just love being controversial, doesn't matter for good or bad. Kanye West got famous for standing up to George Bush, now he's a Nazi.

[u/Wolf_Mans_Got_Nards → u/GracelessOne]

This is what always irks me about the whole Johnny Rotten/Jimmy Saville thing. Rotten wasn't "exposing" anything. He was a professional contrarian, he just repeated a bunch of contentious runours, and got lucky that the Saville one was true.

[u/Cummyshitballs → u/Pheehelm]

He also supposedly renounced his views a year or so prior to his death.

Edited to add, after doing some more research, family members have stated he was a civil rights lawyer solely for monetary gain, and he’d regularly use hate speech when discussing the clients he worked with once he was no longer in their vicinity.

[u/Evolations → u/Cummyshitballs]

By the time of his death he'd been completely cut off by the family apparently. A sad end, really.

[u/DTPVH → u/Evolations]

They didn’t even give him a funeral, all because he stopped hating

[u/BongoProdigy → u/DTPVH]

Did they at least protest at his funeral?

[u/DTPVH → u/BongoProdigy]

They didn’t have a funeral to protest. His daughter excommunicated him and buried him in an unmarked grave.

[u/BongoProdigy → u/DTPVH]

That is some next level commitment to hate.

[u/DTPVH → u/BongoProdigy]

But it’s at least consistent

[u/Thanos_Stomps → u/Pheehelm]

Fred Phelps shifted the culture that led to same sex marriage being upheld and legalized.

[u/dumbinternetstuff]

Jimmy Saville died while he was still a hero in a lot of people’s eyes. 

He didn’t live long enough to see all of us realize he was a villain. 

[u/mirromirromirro → u/dumbinternetstuff]

It’s crazy to me as an American how clean his reputation was before he died. He just looks like an unsavory, lascivious character.

[u/Parish87 → u/mirromirromirro]

People knew, which compounded the issue of Saville even further. The cover up was massive.

[u/meteda1080 → u/Parish87]

The BBC and the British government helped cover up his crimes. John Rotten from the Sex Pistols called out Saville in an pre-recorded interview that was censored and he was blacklisted by the media and banned from BBC.

[u/Typical_logistics → u/meteda1080]

The government was paying Savile to front major public safety campaigns at the exact time the BBC blacklisted Lydon. The state propped him up as a civic role model while silencing the punk scene for pointing out the rumors.

[u/jsting → u/meteda1080]

Margaret Thatcher doesn't get enough hate.

[u/narsfweasels → u/Parish87]

One name: Esther Rantzen.

And what was worse? She was known as an absolute tyrant at the BBC.

[u/video-kid → u/mirromirromirro]

He always came across as creepy to a lot of people, there's a lot of stories about people almost instinctively protecting their kids and getting bad vibes when they met him. He was that level of creepy where it was too easy to pass off as eccentric.

[u/Kelsiersdaggers → u/mirromirromirro]

Uh, his reputation was far from “clean”. Christ Louis Theroux even asked him if he was a nonce to his face.

[u/rgiggs11 → u/mirromirromirro]

The most famous biography of him is called "In Plain Sight"

[u/Shadow_F3r4L → u/dumbinternetstuff]

What hacks me off about that is how many people in health care, child care and governance knew of his crimes, but did nothing about it for fear of losing their jobs.

[u/MajesticBread9147 → u/Shadow_F3r4L]

It's not just their jobs. British libel laws make it so allegations must be heavily substantiated.

You can't say publicly "this man abused my daughter" after being told as such without the burden of proof on you to prove that he is.

It makes SLAPP suits (or the threat of them) so much more of an issue.

[u/TVCasualtydotorg → u/MajesticBread9147]

And Saville was famously litigious. It's also why the press held off until he died.

[u/johnis12 → u/Shadow_F3r4L]

Yeh, gotta say and this might sound a bit out there, but after decades of abuse, I'm surprised no one who knew of his crimes didn't straight up just try to kill the creep. The fucker escaped justice for so long...

But guess that's unfortunately and sadly how it goes sometimes, what with a current particular person in power evading justice for his heinous crimes as well. :/

Just goes to show how much power can let people get away with shit.

[u/grifan526 → u/dumbinternetstuff]

As an American, I didn't know who he was until I listened to the Behind the Bastards episodes on him. I think I yelled "What the fuck" more times in those episodes than any other. Sounds like the guy was definitely a villain

[u/RaylanGivens29 → u/dumbinternetstuff]

That’s different than being a hero and ending up a villain. He was a villain the whole time, people just didn’t know, right?

Or am I just reading too much into it?

[u/Key_Molasses4367 → u/RaylanGivens29]

Yes, you are right. His shows were popular, he made a ton of money, a lot of which he contributed to charity. But as far back as the 1960s, a coworker saw him with a young teen girl in his bed in a hotel room. The people riding the gravy train of the hundreds of millions of dollars he brought in knew he was totally into sex with teen and preteen girls, and they either ignored or enabled it. Reports to police in some town he lived in went nowhere - he was friends with them.

[u/Sharo_77 → u/dumbinternetstuff]

I think the weird thing was that if you asked people individually they'd have said "he's a wrong un, but everyone else thinks he ok so I must be wrong".

[u/virora → u/Sharo_77]

Some people cultivate the image of a weirdo so people who get the creeps around them are brushed off as conformists who just don't like you if you don't fit the mould.

See also: Russell Brand

[u/Faythezeal]

Joe Paterno was highly regarded until the Sandusky stuff came out.

[u/TeacherPatti → u/Faythezeal]

I have a friend who is from PA. This man LOVED Paterno. LOVED the team, etc. I watched my friend (from afar, granted, via social media) freaking meltdown over this. It was painful to watch. I am a lifelong Detroit Lions fan (I know), but I've never been that into a college team. I paid way too much attention to that whole shitshow--what a way to shit all over your legacy.

[u/Badloss → u/TeacherPatti]

I've been a lifelong Patriots fan (yes, even in the Before Times when they were a joke) but there is a weird parasocial/religious nature to college fandom that doesn't translate to pro sports.

I love my pro teams but Penn State people genuinely attached religious / family level status to Paterno. I think it's disappointing that Bill Belichick is kind of trashing his legacy while running around with a 24 year old but I don't feel the bone-deep betrayal that they felt

[u/DeckFisher → u/Badloss]

I think it’s just because college fandom feels so much more personal. Most college fans are fans of that school either because they live in/grew up in the area or actually went to the school. Plus there’s no billionaire owners to really drive home the point that the team doesn’t actually belong to the fans. They feel like their college team represents them on a much more personal level.

[u/Beautiful-Cup4161 → u/Faythezeal]

I used to pass by his statue sometimes when I was working. My favourite local restaurant had napkins with a phrase about how we're in Joe's valley. He was a local god.

Many local people defended him rabidly.  Students rioted in support of him. They tipped over a news van, if I remember correctly. It was a very embarassing time.

[u/kjm16216 → u/Beautiful-Cup4161]

You know they didn't actually remove the statue. They just made it look the other way.

[u/PeriodicPenguin]

Benedict Arnold.

Was injured in the Battle of Saratoga, where there’s a monument of him (or at least his leg).

He went on to attempt to surrender West Point to the British.

[u/tashkiira → u/PeriodicPenguin]

I'm gonna be that guy.

The Continental Congress betrayed Benedict Arnold.

Arnold was brought into the fold on the advice of Washington. He was a brilliant commander of men. But the Continental Congress didn't like him, at all. And they hated that he was seriously dating the daughter of a rich Loyalist.

In those times, at that level of wealth, it was typical to spend an exorbitant amount of money on securing your lady's affections. Arnold was broke, having spent nearly everything he had on his wife and wedding. He was relying on the Continental Congress to pay him as promised. Instead, the Continental Congress sent Arnold a bill for the uniforms and weapons of his men. He had no choice but to turn to his new father-in-law for help financially, and betraying the country that had just betrayed him was the price.

If the Continental Congress had just paid the man, Benedict Arnold would be one of the biggest heroes of the American Revolution and revered as a Founding Father. Instead, they nearly destroyed the American Experiment. And when Washington found out, he didn't rag on Arnold. He ripped the Continental Congress a new one.

Was what Arnold did right? No, not really. But it was the only option he had that was remotely socially acceptable.

[u/stanley604 → u/tashkiira]

The Continental Congress did essentially the same thing to Silas Deane. He spent his fortune on the revolutionary cause, and served as our first ambassador to France. He was key in getting the French to come in to the fight on the American side, but Congress (driven mostly by the execrable Arthur Lee) ruined his reputation and embittered him so much that he moved to England.

[u/Radiant-Bite7242 → u/tashkiira]

That's the part that gets lost in the traitor version of the story. He absolutely made the wrong choice, but its wild how much of the story changes once you realize how badly he felt he'd been treated beforehand.

[u/Krakshotz → u/PeriodicPenguin]

If he had died at Saratoga, he probably would’ve gone down in history as an American hero

[u/Roentgen_Ray1895 → u/PeriodicPenguin]

Obviously don’t agree with the betrayal but I think anyone would fall down the same path if the alternative meant spending any more time dealing with Horatio Gates

[u/Hark_An_Adventure → u/Roentgen_Ray1895]

Bummer that Gates was such an insufferable douche, because his name fucking rips. Horatio Gates? Are you kidding me?! That rules!

[u/WithCatlikeTread42 → u/PeriodicPenguin]

Arnold was significant in several events during the Revolution. He got cannons from Ticonderoga to Boston. He was brilliant at the battle of Valcour Island. And then there is the Battle of Saratoga. (Not his whole leg. Just his boot.)

If anyone had a reason to be resentful over not being promoted, it was Arnold.

[u/Kavein80 → u/WithCatlikeTread42]

It not just the he was not promoted, he was owed a significant amount of money from the government that they refused to pay him, in fact they said he owed THEM! So yeah, every man has his breaking point and the Continental Congress pushed Benedict to his

[u/Jebediah_Johnson → u/WithCatlikeTread42]

We treat Benedict Arnold as the pinnacle of betraying your country, when Robert E Lee is literally right there.

[u/therealsix → u/Jebediah_Johnson]

We have people currently fighting for the top spot.

[u/Saxhleel13 → u/PeriodicPenguin]

I'm familiar with the historians in upstate New York and those guys love to point this out about him. Valcour, Ticonderoga, Saratoga.

The Plattsburgh history museum's original idea for an America 250 exhibit up until basically the last minute of planning was "Benedict Arnold: Hero of Lake Champlain" (now History of Lake Champlain, with a section dedicated to him).

[u/Debt-Then]

The founders of Google. They wanted to give information to the world, but when they realized they needed to make money they started collecting and selling our data to the highest bidders.

[u/FarinaSavage → u/Debt-Then]

Don't be evil.\ ETA: Thanks for the award, lovely Redditor!

[u/SilverStar9192 → u/FarinaSavage]

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in whatever meeting they decided to retire that slogan.  Like, a bunch of managers in a room having to face the reality that they may, in fact, be evil.  

[u/FarinaSavage → u/SilverStar9192]

Classic "are we the baddies?"

[u/ReadySettyGoey]

Fritz Haber. He won the Nobel prize after inventing a process that supports something like 1/3rd of the world’s food production, hugely reducing world hunger. Then in WWI was essentially the father of chemical warfare on behalf of Germany, using his chemistry knowledge to create truly horrific weapons.

[u/vissionsofthefutura → u/ReadySettyGoey]

I think he’s a more unique case. He killed millions on the battlefield in some of the most horrific ways but his inventions have saved billions from starvation. Before the war he also argued that scientists should support their militaries in war so it wasn’t a sudden switch.

[u/Hyphen99]

Rudy Giuliani. Went from “America’s Mayor” after 9/11 to disgraced and pathetic Trump nut flunky

[u/timothymr → u/Hyphen99]

There's a funny line in "Oh Hello! On Broadway" where they mention Rudy Giuliani.

"He truly was the hero of 9/11 because no one else was Mayor that day!"

[u/Channel250 → u/timothymr]

That was such a good show they put on.

How old are you?

14

14!? Did you get any of this!?

[u/timothymr → u/Channel250]

I had no idea about Oh Hello before I watched it, I only knew I liked John Mulaney's stand up and so went in blind. Such a weird show but so so funny.

"Would you go to every pizza place in New York and bring me the most sun-faded head shot of Danny Aiello?"

[u/yankdevil → u/Hyphen99]

Rudy Giuliani was always an awful human being. I lived in New York and a large swath of folks had his number from day one. He was the idiot who put NYC's emergency response headquarters in the World Trade Center after the 1993 bombing. Just because Republicans liked him doesn't mean sane people did.

[u/sirspidermonkey → u/yankdevil]

Don't forget he also didn't let the the Fire department get radios that would work in skyscrapers (not that NYC has many of those right?)

So they FD on the ground had no way to communicate with those in the tower.

Typical republican logic though, get a bunch of people killed and then stand on the rubble as a hero.

[u/dongeckoj → u/yankdevil]

Yep the rest of the country just realized after a while that he was a piece of shit.

[u/azad_ninja → u/Hyphen99]

People forget he was despised prior to 9/11 as well by many New Yorkers. He “cleaned up” Manhattan for corporations by being pretty heartless to homeless people, and using the cops to intimidate everyone he targeted.

[u/suburban_ennui75]

Naomi Wolf was an important public intellectual in the 90s, and is legitimately batshit crazy now.

[u/LaMaupindAubigny → u/suburban_ennui75]

I feel so bad for Naomi Klein. I was always mixing them up until I learned “Klein=Fine, Woolf=Oof”!

[u/vibraltu → u/LaMaupindAubigny]

Naomi Klein wrote an excellent book about personal identity and conspiracy ideology, which starts off with people mistaking her for her kooky nemesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppelganger:_A_Trip_into_the_Mirror_World

[u/NoveltyAccountHater → u/suburban_ennui75]

Naomi Wolf was an important public intellectual in the 90s, and is legitimately batshit crazy now.

Wolf wrote popular non-fiction books on feminism and advised the Clinton campaign in 1996, but wasn't ever really an intellectual and was a pseudo-intellectual at best. Like her breakthrough book initially claimed 150,000 American women died each year due to anorexia and bulimia, misquoting a source that estimated 150,000 women suffered from those conditions (~100-400 people died). She stated 7.5% of girls and women suffered anorexia instead of 0.065%. An academic reviewing her book published a paper stating "18 of 23 statistics are inaccurate and overdone. On average, a statistic on anorexia by Naomi Wolf should be divided by eight to get close to the real figure.". In a later 2019 book talking about prosecutions of homosexuals in London, she confused the term for pardons/commutations with being an execution (granted in Victorian England the legal term for a pardon was "death recorded"). Similarly, she interpreted all crimes of sodomy as being for homosexual acts, while in Victorian England it also included various other sexual offenses like rape, bestiality, and pedophilia.

(This isn't to criticize feminism as a whole or even the central tenet that society forcing unrealistic beauty standards are harmful to women; just to criticize her specifically shoddy research. Having a specialty in shoddy research makes her transition to anti-vax movement relatively clear.)

[u/dubbzy104]

Bill Cosby. He was family friendly, had good moral values in Fat Albert and Cosby show, and was viewed as a nice sweet man who enjoyed his pudding pops

[u/Pinotb0tter → u/dubbzy104]

I guess it could be argued, that he was the villain all along?

[u/isspecialist → u/Pinotb0tter]

Yeah, I think that's part of what makes his so terrible. He was doing awful things, while pretending to be wholesome AND preaching about morality to younger comedians.

[u/Dakarius → u/isspecialist]

The hypocrisy wasn't even the worst part.

[u/HermionesWetPanties → u/Pinotb0tter]

Yeah, same with Savile. There is a difference between being an actual hero and falling and being a wolf hiding in sheep's clothing only to be outed later.

[u/Crow-T-Robot → u/dubbzy104]

This is who I thought of. If he had died in the early 2000's, he'd be remembered similar to Mr. Rodgers, someone who did enormous good. Even though he had already done horrible things, its very unlikely that the evidence would ever get looked at.

I remember he did an AMA maybe 12 years ago on here, and a few people tried to ask about some troubling things that some women had started to mention. Those all got down voted to oblivion, no one would believe anything bad about Cosby 🤔

[u/CommercialPanda5080 → u/dubbzy104]

It really sucks, too, because The Cosby Show was a great sitcom, one of the best ever. I can't even go back and watch it now without thinking, "Ick."

[u/TassoHarley → u/dubbzy104]

Also enjoyed pudding his dick where it didn’t belong.

[u/KaraAliasRaidra]

I don't know if this has been mentioned already (and I apologize if it has), but recently I learned about something dubbed Nobel disease. It's a phenomenon in which some Nobel Prize winners go on to espouse strange or unsound scientific theories. You look at the list of examples and it ranges from "That's a little strange..." to "What in blazes is wrong with you?!" The most notable examples are the ones who went on to support Nazism and eugenics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease

There's also Ingrid Newkirk, one of the founders of PETA. She started out doing genuinely good work for animals, but she's become more unhinged over the years. One article I read about her offered an interesting theory about how once good-hearted people become corrupted, and it boils down to arrogance about self-perception. "G-d is good. I am good, therefore I am a god." It was an interesting analysis and it's something we all need to be on guard against regardless of personal beliefs.

[u/Kozeyekan_ → u/KaraAliasRaidra]

I've seen it a lot in some highly capable people. They get to the top of their field and can legitimately claim to be the smartest person in the room when that field is present. But sometimes, they assume that also translates into being the smartest in any room with any people.

So you get a highly regarded cardiac surgeon pioneering new techniques who thinks they're also an expert on geopolitics, or an engineer who was able to completely redefine the energy efficiency level of a huge, multi-purpose building suddenly claim to be an expert on vaccines and epidemiology.

Some of them make being smarter than others a core trait, and struggle to adjust to being out of their depth when not in their field.

[u/onewithoutasoul]

The founders of Google. Their initial company motto was "Don't be Evil".

Now, just look at em.

[u/greeneyeraven → u/onewithoutasoul]

I used to love everything google related, I remember getting my invite for Gmail at the beginning and having my 4 invited and give them away to people.

It is pathetic and sad what they have become.

[u/Lachwen]

Back in 1995, a Republican representing Oregon in the US Senate, Bob Packwood, was being credibly accused by multiple women of sexual harassment and assault - eventually a total of 19 different women would come forward. As evidence of what he'd done mounted, the Senate Ethics Committee eventually voted unanimously to recommend that Packwood be expelled from the Senate, leading to Packwood's resignation. The Senate seat he vacated would go on to be held for many years by a Democrat, Ron Wyden. Four years later, during President Clinton's impeachment, the chairman of that Ethics Committee, a Republican himself, said he'd known a Democrat would likely take Packwood's seat if he was forced out, but he felt that felt that it had come down to a choice of "retain the Senate seat or retain our honor".

That Republican who valued his party's honor over their power in the Senate? Mitch McConnell.

[u/piezombi3 → u/Lachwen]

Holy fuck what a twist.

[u/HotTwo8570]

I am not sure if he fits this criteria, but I say Noam Chomsky. Before his ties to Epstein were exposed, he was an idol to many leftists.To be honest, even though I wasn't a fan of his, I liked many of his ideas. However, in the final years of his life, his connections to Epstein was exposed and unfortunately we all saw his true face

[u/Tabulldog98 → u/HotTwo8570]

That fucker chose a pedophilic rapist over his own daughters. That alone speaks volumes.

[u/-3udaimonia- → u/Tabulldog98]

Over his daughters? I haven't heard of this, what happened?

[u/pikebot → u/HotTwo8570]

I mean, he was writing books fluffing the Khmer Rouge while they were in the middle of shoving Cambodia into a meat grinder. Dude was always monstrous.

[u/ThatOldChestnut2 → u/HotTwo8570]

He's still alive btw! :-)

[u/Josniff3021orwhat → u/HotTwo8570]

He's a genocide denier too

[u/dongeckoj]

Herbert Hoover went from a man admired for his humanitarianism to the most hated man in the United States after a failed attempt to blame the Great Depression that he caused more than any other human being due to his policy of high tariffs on Mexican Americans, which led to the deportation of over 1.5 million American citizens of Mexican origin. Around 60% of these were natural-born citizens. The Democrats then won the next five elections in a row, and spent the next 28 out of 36 years in power.

[u/Themantogoto → u/dongeckoj]

The shanty towns created by the depression became known as "Hoovervilles".

[u/FarinaSavage → u/Themantogoto]

Newspapers were called "Hoover blankets." Shame, because Hoover Dam really was quite the achievement.

[u/Themantogoto → u/FarinaSavage]

It was very contentious at the time even naming the dam after anyone living. Most people knew it as the boulder dam until many years later. 

[u/JeffTek → u/Themantogoto]

Hoover Stew kinda slaps though

[u/Hyatt97 → u/dongeckoj]

Where have I heard this story before? Sounds awfully familiar

[u/maverickhawk99 → u/dongeckoj]

Hoover did get some good will after WW2. Truman put him in charge of overseeing relief efforts in Europe, he was one of the people who came up with the Marshall Plan

[u/wakashit → u/maverickhawk99]

The only documentary I’ve ever watched to make me physically sick was about the Great Famine in Russia on PBS. Hoover was instrumental in getting food across the country to solve a major humanitarian crisis.

That experience in logistics was why Truman tapped him to help feed Europe. Terrible president, but saved millions of lives abroad.

[u/Arkvoodle42]

Scott Adams.

Dilbert was once counted among the most popular comic strips in the country but as soon as it's creator found social media it all vanished in moments.

Now he's dead and it'll probably never be relevant again since he has no heirs and the rights are a quagmire.

[u/chubbyjelly → u/Arkvoodle42]

Behind the Bastards has a few really good episodes on him, and it seems to me that his entire ego was stoked from childhood because of happy coincidences, and he never grew out of thinking that he was the Most Special Boy in the universe. which made him a very unpleasant person, even excluding his weird viewpoints and all of that jazz

[u/The_Canadian → u/Arkvoodle42]

Yeah, it kinda sucks. I still love Dilbert, especially as someone who works for an engineering firm. Over time, I noticed the tone of the strips started to change. I'd say around 2016 and after, they because more mean-spirited and attempted to just shoehorn in current social commentary for the sake of a punchline. The original Dilbert content is still funny and relevant today.

[u/fishsupreme → u/The_Canadian]

I think it also doesn't help that by 2016, Scott Adams probably hadn't worked in an office for more than a decade. He grew increasingly separated from what he aimed to satirize since he went from "office tech worker" to "world-famous cartoonist."

So instead he talked about what he knew... which is apparently just right-wing talking points.

[u/Steamshipper]

Lance Armstrong

[u/benneladoo → u/Steamshipper]

Leave him alone , he won cycle race while on drugs

When i was on drugs ,i couldn't even find my bike, let alone ride it 

[u/siderinc → u/benneladoo]

And loads of people that finished behind him did the same.

I once heard that if they want to award the first clean racer it was someone that placed 37th or something.

Edit:spelling

[u/Various-Dust285 → u/siderinc]

As a cycling fan, this is true.

What makes us all hate Lance more than any one else is his attitude. Lance was an ass even before the issues, and he did a media tour of "how dare you accuse me of drugs" before he got tested. Most other cyclists were like "yea, you got me, well done"

Also, it's WHY Lance got caught that also makes him an ass. Sparks notes version

• His strongest teammate in his early career was Floyd Landis
• Landis was caught doping much earlier than Armstrong, and Armstrong already started his "how could he? I would never?" holier-than-thou BS.
• Landis also had a bit of a "Who? Me? No" attitude, but not nearly as much as Armstrong.
• Landis served a two year (this is from memory?) exile from cycling. When he was ready to come back, he wanted to be back on Lance's team, they were a great team before. Lance continued with his "I won't be associated with cheaters" BS, and basically told him to F off.
• Landis was fed up with Armstrong's hypocrisy and slander and such, so he sent evidence that the whole team was doping back in the 2000s

Even now, Lance is still pretty arrogant and likes to toot his own horn a lot, he feels a lot like Michael Jordan in that respect, to give a more well-known reference. He keeps his grudges, he doesn't acknowledge the acheivements of others very well. Like MJ, he was clearly a GOAT for his era, but the sport has moved on. Cycling currently has a guy who is clearly going to be the GOAT. He's only 27 and is already debatably the best ever, but Lance keeps talking about himself and downplays what Tadej is doing.

For cycling fans, the real problem is that the physios, trainers, teams, and such weren't really punished, so some of them are still in the sport. Who was administering the drugs and overseeing all that?

For non-cycling fans, as Bill Burr said, all Lance Armstrong did for me was raise millions of dollars for cancer.

[u/Patecatli → u/Various-Dust285]

Not to mention the attacks and lawsuits against anyone who claimed he was doping.

He demanded that Trek droo Greg Lemond after Greg had raised concerns about a team doctor.

Basically Armstrong was a narcissist, and he attacked anyone who went against him.

[u/TrueMagenta]

Neil Gaiman. He was the anti-JK Rowling and a progressive man, a feminist even - until the multiple sexual assault claims.

[u/Shas_Erra]

Elon Musk

When he first entered the public eye, he was a breath of fresh air. A billionaire who was looking to actually do some good. He arguably pushed electric cars to the mass market and successfully launched a viable rival to NASA, starting a second space race. For a while, it looked like we were getting back on track as a civilisation with an eye toward a better future for all.

Then he went full right wing nut job, threw his weight behind Trump and burned all his goodwill overnight.

[u/tafa94 → u/Shas_Erra]

When he called the diver a pedo cos of a bruised ego, that's when I stopped caring about him

[u/LordChunggis → u/tafa94]

I remember thinking, "Fuck, he's just another piece of shit"

[u/Equivalent_Room3344 → u/LordChunggis]

I remember thinking, "Is he telling on himself?"

Projection and all that. Then the emails begging Jepstein to visit the Island showed... he most likely was.

[u/youhavenosoul → u/Equivalent_Room3344]

The guy would fuck a fish if it meant acceptance into an in-crowd.

[u/circadian_light → u/tafa94]

That seemed to have been the turning point. I don’t recall any overtly crazy behaviour prior to that.

[u/Oriflamme → u/circadian_light]

If you cared about labor law and that kind of things, you knew he was already a POS at the time, but no worse than most billionaires. I think he was already denounced for taking credit for everything like he invented/founded it, but these voices against him were few and far between.

[u/wcg66 → u/Oriflamme]

He forced the real founders of Tesla to name him a cofounder as part of a settlement from a lawsuit from one of the real founders. Musk is not the founder or cofounder of Tesla.

https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/gdx3yr/til_that_elon_musk_was_not_an_original_founder_of/

[u/Honest-Weight338 → u/Oriflamme]

I remember my dad loved him, and would talk about the working conditions at his companies as a good thing. How he would tell his workers that if they weren't willing to basically live at work, they could leave. I couldn't figure out why that was good.

[u/notscenerob → u/circadian_light]

Wasn't public at the time, but he was trying to get to Epstein Island all the way back in 2012-2013

[u/Visual-District9838 → u/notscenerob]

He wasn't cool enough to get invited lmao

[u/ATLienNumber9 → u/tafa94]

I worked at a smaller tech startup at the time filled with engineers from GA Tech and Elon was all but worshiped in those circles.

At the time we knew that was weird way to handle it for a leader of such large companies but I think a lot of smart people still believed he was genuinely a very intelligent person.

Looking back of course that was truly was the first public red flag.

IMO the paradigm really shifted once he bought twitter and demanded his engineers 'print out their most succinct code'.

The wool was fully removed at that point. This guy is an air bag. A really, really, really deceptive air bag.

[u/BD401 → u/Shas_Erra]

His fall-off was epic. There was actually a time (like early-to-mid 2010s) where he was genuinely beloved on Reddit, where if you said anything negative about him you’d get downvoted to oblivion.

He went from “quirky billionaire who wants to go to Mars” to “wannabe fascist shitheel” crazy fast in the public eye.

[u/viziroth → u/Shas_Erra]

a lot of the cracks there were appearing long before a lot of people are willing to admit. he's never been good, he was just quiet enough that his PR team could keep up with him back then. Even his earliest practices were scummy, buying out companies and taking the founder titles in the deal.

[u/yakshack → u/viziroth]

It was known back in the late 90's that Elon was a massive megalomaniacal prick.

[u/semajolis267 → u/Shas_Erra]

Because he REALLY  wanted to be invited to the Island. 

[u/WhereAreMaKeys → u/semajolis267]

Imagine being so annoying that even Epstein and his ilk get the ick.

[u/benneladoo → u/Shas_Erra]

Yeah when Trump won, I sold my model S and bought a VW electric.

I'll never drive a vehicle whose founder did nazi salute

[u/ShockedNChagrinned → u/benneladoo]

Your sarcasm was too subtle 

[u/Cassiyus → u/benneladoo]

Should have chosen Ford, made right here in America.

[u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS]

If Elon Musk had actually died on Mars when he first expressed such a wish back in 2013, I imagine he would be remembered very differently.

[u/DralenDragonfox → u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS]

Or if he had really crashed that uninsured McLaren when he was trying to impress his passenger, Peter Thiel. Imagine the timeline with those two characters removed fifteen years ago.

[u/BeholdingBestWaifu → u/DralenDragonfox]

Time travelers take note.

[u/JonCocktoastin]

Charles Lindbergh

[u/AlanMercer]

Charles Lindbergh.

Famous for his Atlantic crossing and the tragedy of the kidnapping and death of his son.

He was also barely concealing how much of a prick he was. Deeply problematic politics included racism, antisemitism, and support of fascist Germany, but he was allowed to skate on all that, even after the war.

The thing that really gets me though is that he used his fame to marry well. His wife came with a lot of money and family connections, which made his life comfortable despite coming from modest circumstances. This included a lot of gigs as a public speaker and sometime U.S. government hypeman in Europe.

He used his wife's money to have a series of affairs, including a secret second family while abroad, which he successfully concealed his entire life. His kids from those relationships had no idea who he was or even his real name until one of them as an adult saw his photo in a magazine.

[u/TorinEkenskolde]

Aung San Suu Kyi

[u/Equal-Hair3068 → u/TorinEkenskolde]

She was the face of peaceful resistance for decades and then completely flipped when she got actual power. The Rohingya situation sealed it for me, seeing her just deny everything in court was chilling

[u/iwantdatpuss → u/TorinEkenskolde]

I still remember the fact that we used to talk about her during AP lessons. The switchup was crazy. 

[u/vassallo15]

Philippe Petain. Was a French general in ww1 and a decorated war hero. In ww2 he signed France’s surrender to Germany and cooperated with nazis.

[u/benneladoo]

Jackie chan was one of the few brave celebrities who spoke about the 1989 tianemman square attacks 

He later became the biggest lapdog of CCP 

[u/webkilla → u/benneladoo]

Iirc he became that lapdog because his son got in legal trouble, and this was how Jackie was able leverage his own celebrity status to save his kid. Selling out to avoid his son in prison

[u/MathematicianSuch234 → u/webkilla]

His son got done for possession of marijuana whilst the CCCP where doing a celebrity crack down and ended up in prison.

[u/benneladoo → u/webkilla]

Actually it's the reverse, when china announced their war on drugs, everyone laughed at it 

At that time, jaycee got caught and they asked Jackie to make him a public spectacle and he agreed . A lot of celebrities do get caught with drugs but they are hushed up 

Jackie made his son's trial a spectacle like oj simpson trial to make common men fear taking drugs 

[u/dpezpoopsies → u/benneladoo]

I've never understood his whole ''I will donate my net worth upon my death so my children can find their own way" thing. Maybe different culture, and I certainly understand not wanting to raise a bunch of spoiled entitled brats. That said, I think I'd personally be so saddened if I died with the ability to provide a saftey net that let my kids fully pursue their dreams and instead they were left to fend for themselves.

I get like maybe not the whole fortune, but not even some of it?

ETA: sounds like I fell victim to headline propaganda, and he has actually stated that he will leave some of his fortune behind

[u/Jetboy01 → u/dpezpoopsies]

Didn't he say something like he intended to leave them enough to do anything, but not enough to do nothing.

[u/doctor6]

Oscar pistorius

[u/Viperlite]

John Fetterman. Went from being the new hope for PA democrats to a wacko turncoat, post stroke.

[u/Deadfire_08]

Fucking Robiespierre (French Revolution). Was a leading figure in the uprising and the aftermath, after Louis 16 was shortened. A bit later he thought people should honor him as a god. He died then.

[u/Vasco_Medici → u/Deadfire_08]

Was unironically known as ''the Incorruptible' in the early days.

[u/Ok-Blueberry-9021 → u/Deadfire_08]

His downfall was so funny. He basically said to the National Convention that he had a list of enemies of the state but, when people asked who was on it, his response was basically, “There are loads of you, but I’m not going to tell you. They know who they are.”

So the members of the National Convention decided it was kill or be killed

[u/mrfuzzyshorts]

Will Smith

[u/No-Cartographer-7614 → u/mrfuzzyshorts]

Crazy to think that the biggest and worst moment of his career both happened on the same night.

[u/CryptographerMore944 → u/No-Cartographer-7614]

I forgot he won the award for quite a while and had to be reminded.

[u/TheThurmanMerman]

Themistokles. Saved the Greeks at Salamis, then “defected” to the Persian empire.

[u/Traditional_Day_9737]

JK Rowling could have just lived the rest of her life as a fabulously wealthy beloved children's author, writing the occasional vaguely in universe book whenever she needed to print money.

[u/OSCgal → u/Traditional_Day_9737]

Man, I remember when her big "cause" was the welfare of British orphans. If she'd just stuck to that!

[u/Ok-Damage9600]

Bill Cosby. He was America's dad, but it turns out he was a monster of a man.

[u/kindquail503]

Rudy Guilliani went from successfully prosecuting the Mob and becoming "America's Mayor" while leading NYC through 9/11 to becoming a buffoon while working for Donald Trump.

[u/ProbablyPostingNaked → u/kindquail503]

He got rid of the Italian Mob to make room for the Russian Mob. He was never a hero.

[u/Random-Generation86]

I heard it said that if Mao had died in 1950, he would have been a hero forever. If he died in 1960, he would have been a complicated figure. Unfortunately, he died in 1976.

[u/Snickerdoodle321]

Rudy Giuliani. Many people don’t seem to realize how integral he was in taking down the mob. Before he became mayor of New York he oversaw the investigations and convictions of most of the heads of all major mafia families.

Fast forward a few decades and the man is nothing but a Trump lackey.

[u/KingDarius89 → u/Snickerdoodle321]

It still baffles me on why he ruined his own legacy like that.

[u/blue_magi → u/KingDarius89]

Kinda started long before that. Once he started milking 9/11 every chance he got, the writing was on the wall. The urge to grift was always there.

[u/sunnygovan → u/Snickerdoodle321]

He did that while accepting donations from the Brighton beach russians. He didn't smash the mafia for Joe Blogs, he removed competition.

[u/joe-h2o → u/Snickerdoodle321]

When you look at it through the lens of removing competition for the Russian mob, it makes more sense how he managed it so effectively.

He was bankrolled with cash and actionable intelligence by the Russian mafia.

[u/MightyGiawulf]

Giles De Rais. Fiction blends with history a bit, but he was a well-respected French general and knight who fought alongside Joan of Arc and (according to some sources) was an advocate and defendant of her even when the Church condemmed her. After Joan's death, he spiraled and became a child-raping serial killer.

[u/clapper88]

Joe Paterno