r/CarTrackDays • u/jbro507 • 3d ago
Steering inputs.
https://youtu.be/tFeddyzZnXY?t=810&is=4UTeFC_yfncIC7x3If that link works correctly it should drop you to about the 13 minute mark on the video.
I'm hoping to get a better handle on this. I've always heard that smooth, consistent inputs are key to speed, and I often see drivers criticized for sawing at the wheel. I had an instructor tell me to set my steering angle once on entry with a single fluid motion and avoid mid-corner corrections.
Then I watch a video like this, where the driver is making significant steering adjustments through turns one and two.
Is the difference here just pace? My line of thinking is that at 7/10ths, you shouldn't need many mid-corner corrections. Once you push to 9/10ths or 10/10ths and balance the car on the limit of traction, those inputs become necessary and acceptable. Am I looking at this correctly?
Even at 7/10ths, I still make small, smooth adjustments mid-corner because I'm not precise enough yet to nail the exact turn-in point and angle every single time. If I realize mid-corner that the car isn't heading where I want, I make a smooth correction.
Anyway, I think you get the gist of what I'm asking. Curious to hear your thoughts.
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u/NeedMoreDeltaV 997 Cup | Spec Boxster | 981 GT4 3d ago
Yes the difference is pace. When the car is actually on the limit at the optimal slip angle, the car is going to get loose in some way as the tires skirt beyond that limit requiring steering and/or throttle correction to bring it back.
The reason the steering adjustments are quick is because you need to make the adjustment fast to “catch” the car. It’s most obvious in oversteer situations. If your counter steer isn’t quick then the car’s rear rotation will become too great to the point where there’s no saving it.
It’s also worth noting that bumps play a role in these steering videos as well. Sometimes it’s better to let the steering do what it wants over a bump to not overload the tires. In a video this will look like a sharp correction.
The correct time to criticize sawing at the wheel is when the car isn’t at limit pace. I’ve coached a couple of new people that were sawing because they saw it in videos and thought it was the correct way to do it, when all it’s doing below the limit is putting unnecessary steering load into the car.
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u/Aww_Nice_Marmot 3d ago edited 3d ago
I think you're on the right track. O'Gorman is a very fast driver and makes frequent corrections as he tries to keep the car at the very limit of grip and appropriate slip angle. I think where the difference is, is that a lot of those corrections are not really coming as surprises to him. He likely already knows what he might induce in the car, then as soon as it begins, there's a small correction so the tires never fall too far away from the optimal slip angle. Also notice most of his corrections are on entry and early mid corner as he tries to roll as much speed as possible into the corner in a car that is probably set up to be fairly loose on entry. The exits tend to be smoother. I think if you're not needing to make small corrections due to under or oversteer, you're never at the limit (I'm not referring to the corrections made because you're off-line, that's just typically from inexperience). These small and frequent corrections are different than the ones of intermediate/early advanced drivers who aren't smooth. Those corrections tend to be large and late, after the tires are farther outside the optimal slip angle (or because they've noticed they're off-line). Also the corrections more frequently occur during corner exit due to over-aggressive throttle. Sliding the rear around on exit is not typically going to make you any faster. I'd typically try to stay smooth until you're at 9/10ths. Then for the last 10th you are probably going to need to take the car just beyond grip limits frequently, and you'll need to make plenty of corrections. Just my thoughts.
Another very quick driver at the same track, lots of small corrections: https://youtu.be/sVBJA-PrT8s?si=M5quRmh1latsXUt_
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u/jbro507 3d ago
Thanks for this reply. It was very informative. I have a follow up question - if a beginner or intermediate driver is still perfecting holding the correct racing line - What do you recommend regarding steering inputs?
Obviously smooth, not harsh. Beyond that. If an intermediate / novice driver realizes they are off-line, what should they do? Should they continue the line they set themselves on when they entered the corner or should they react, smoothly not harshly and adjust the line if they feel they can make the adjustment without exceeding the limits of the vehicle?
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u/Aww_Nice_Marmot 3d ago edited 3d ago
Adjustments to change the line/general direction of the car should be smooth. If you realize you're coming in offline, gently try to get the car back online. But if it's too far off, accept you're going to miss the apex and set your sights on the next one, rather than keep cranking the wheel to force the car (*edited to add: I should be explicit that once you see you're going to miss the apex, you also need to consciously give up speed so you don't end up off track -- smooth hands and smooth feet). One way to keep those adjustments smoother and with higher fidelity is to have a lighter touch on the steering wheel. Relax the death grip and let your fingertips get feedback from the wheel.
But the more important thing is this -- if you keep noticing your line is off and you're frequently making significant corrections after turn-in, it's possible your vision is the issue. Try to look farther ahead. Spot your apex even before you turn in. Then spot your track out point well before you hit the apex. Thinking about this while on the sim can help, if you have one.
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u/GawinGrimm 3d ago
Tomo is the goat!!! Got him to bring his racecar into the campground one day during an IMSA race weekend.
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u/flatlander757 Data Driven MQB | 2019 VW GTI 3d ago
TRULY fast pace there will be lots of quick little inputs like that. One thing that is not immediately apparent at the end of the long straight is how he is very quick to take steering out, but is slightly smoother to feed it back in. When the front end is pushing, removing steering input regains that front grip, then you have to try and slowly reel the car back towards the true edge of traction.
Think of it like a constant PID loop going on with the "target" being maximizing the overall average lateral g-force.
PID = proportional, intergral, and derivitive. Lots of videos on the subject, here's a quick one:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/jx746B22J8M
As far as the analogy to driving goes:
P = how quickly the driver responds with adjustments - this could be too fast or too slow depending on the situation and severity of correction needed
I = how accurately the driver responds w/ the appropriate amount of adjustment - this could be an overshoot due to either giving too much steering input, or too little
D = how well the driver dials back the input you approach the actual limit - this is the primary thing that new drivers lack... it comes with time and fucking up the P and I factors above many times over.
Having super smooth inputs and being "mostly" on the limit comes from having a slow D factor (THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!). If you never actually CROSS that limit, there's no need to make adjustments.
Grip is constantly changing. Track surface, tire temp and condition, fuel level, what line you take and how much lateral vs longitudinal gs you're putting into the car, etc. The fast drivers approach the limit and exceed it a tiny bit, then dial it back, rinse and repeat.
The best way to describe it IMO is a smooth aggression.
Also FWIW when it comes to FWD cars - steering inputs are generally a bit smoother, and instead you'll be modulating the throttle mid-corner more than anything else.
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u/Equana 3d ago
With a perfect handling car.. there is no such thing... you would not have to make corrections if you were a perfect driver running the maximum speed. Everyone else has to work the wheel.
In turn 1 it looks like he is managing some understeer. Through the right hand turn 4 the car seems perfectly balanced. Through the hairpin, there is quite a bit of understeer. Front tires slide, unsteer to re-establish grip, then turn in again.
The closer to 10/10ths, the more you will need to work the wheel. As you find 11/10ths... oops, too hot.... you use that understeer to slow the car a bit back to 10/10ths.
You can also use that video to help you turn the car. The harder the driver works the wheel, the worse the handling is. I describe that as "the car is trying to kill the driver". If you are always working the understeer... fix that. If you are always catching the car's oversteer.... fix that. If you have both, that is the most difficult to fix.
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u/2AvocadosForTenBucks 3d ago
Coaches taught me to test grip with the wheel frequently, but not with aggressive sawing. I’m making little checks throughout the corner to see how much grip is still there, especially if the corner is very long like a carousel. If I’m already tight to the inside and I check and have yet more grip available, then I know I can come in a little faster next time