'scheiß' as "adjective"?

[u/YourDailyGerman]

I'm wondering about 'scheiß' as a predicative descriptor of nouns.

a) Mein scheiß Ausschlag geht einfach nicht weg.
b) Mein Scheißausschlag geht einfach nicht weg.
c) Mein Scheiß-Ausschlag geht einfach nicht weg.

I was wondering how to best spell this. What I found was that it should be b).
However, I would pronounce that without a pause then and the main stress on "scheiß", whereas when I say the sentence naturally, I make a pause between scheiß and Ausschlag and "Aus" carries the main stress in the cluster.

Are there any formalized 'rules' that account for this? Is it just me that feels like spelling it as a compound doesn't really capture what it feels like when we say it?

[u/Fit_Athlete_4602]

I would go a) for a meaning of "Der Ausschlag ist scheisse"
b) and c) are more like "Ausschlag aus Scheisse"

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Fit_Athlete_4602]

Oh, I didn't even notice that. True

• Die scheiß Skulptur ist im MOMA.
• Die Scheißskulptur ist im MOMA. 

Clear difference!!

[u/Emmy_Graugans → u/YourDailyGerman]

Smelly difference

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Emmy_Graugans]

That smell sells for 2 Million.

[u/muehsam → u/YourDailyGerman]

"Scheißskulptur" doesn't necessarily mean it's made of shit, but it does mean that it's a bad sculpture. Whereas "scheiß Skulptur" is a sculpture that you're annoyed by, or it's just a sculpture, but you're annoyed by all sculptures.

When I say "so ein Scheißauto" (SCHEIẞ-au-to), I'm saying that it's a bad car. When I say "so ein scheiß Auto" (scheiß-AU-to), I'm saying that I generally don't like cars, or I'm upset about that particular car (or all cars), but not that it's a bad car.

English "fucking" works similarly. When I say "fucking car", I'm saying that I'm upset about it, or that I don't like cars in general. When I say "shit car", I'm saying that it's a bad car.

[u/maethor1337 → u/YourDailyGerman]

I'm just reading along and realizing English has the same rule. A blackbird is a species, but a black bird is a bird that's black. A shithouse is a house for shitting, but a shit house is just a house that's shit.

[u/embroideredyeti → u/YourDailyGerman]

Yikes!

[u/AdIntrepid8326 → u/YourDailyGerman]

Nein, eine scheißskulptur (präfixoid als intensifikator) wäre korrekt, anders meinst du eine Skulptur aus scheiße.

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/AdIntrepid8326]

Ich verstehe nicht, was du meinst ehrlich gesagt.

scheiss Skulptur ist Skulptur aus Scheisse fuer dich, oder wie?

[u/PW_Domination]

You don't want a Scheißausschlag

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/PW_Domination]

I don't want ANY Ausschlag XD

[u/Equivalent_Scar_8171]

This is very colloquial so most times you wouldn‘t write it except in chat. Some combinations exist as fixed expressions like eg. Scheißkerl where b) is correct. In this case I would probably use a), but I would accept all options as fine.

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Equivalent_Scar_8171]

I mean, you have to write it if you do a modern novel with dialogue, so there should be an agreed on way, I'd think.

[u/dasfuxi]

I would use "scheiß" as an indeclinable adjective in this case. See DWDS: https://www.dwds.de/wb/schei%C3%9F

Like "super", "trans", "lila" and several others.

(Edit: I listed "ultra" instead of "super", but that was a bad example.

[u/hangar_tt_no1 → u/dasfuxi]

I would write trans and the following noun in one word. Like e.g. "Transmann".

[u/Significant-Nebula64 → u/hangar_tt_no1]

It's not the recommended way to do it anymore though! Not entirely sure why, but I remember the one trans people prefer us using it as an adjective, not as a part of the noun. 

[u/letsgetawayfromhere → u/Significant-Nebula64]

I believe that is what hanging around in social media using the English language does to you. Social media has been a blessing for trans people all over the world, and of course a lot will be in English, and in English it will be trans man or trans woman. But according to German language rules, it should definitely be Transmann and Transfrau (and this is how I see it written e.g. in magazines).

[u/Phoenica]

Personally I would consider it an adjective here (so version a) on account of it not carrying stress, as you explain: you say "scheiß AUSschlag", but in a compound noun you would expect the first part to carry stress (SCHEIẞausschlag). In other contexts, the compound with initial stress is lexicalized (Scheißtyp, Scheißtag), but it feels off to me here. I think it's trending towards the same class of word as "klasse" and "super" which have fully become uninflected adjectives. Compare also "Superjackpot" (a jackpot that is very big) and "super Jackpot" (a jackpot that you think is awesome) and the difference in stress between them. Unlike "super" and "klasse", "scheiß" cannot be used predicatively, but "scheiße" completes the paradigm in that context. The fact that "scheiße" can already be analyzed as an adjective instead of a noun already lays some groundwork here imo.

Orthographically it would probably be most standard to treat it as a compound noun with Scheiß-, still, regardless of how well that represents the underlying structure. But "super" and "klasse" and so on are already standard (if informal), so there's precedent.

"Riesen-" and "Heiden-" as emphatic compound parts are another interesting case. I think the stress situation is still way more ambiguous there, they don't have predicative forms, and spelling them separately is still way more nonstandard, but maybe they'll go the same way eventually.

[u/IWant2rideMyBike]

As an adjective always a): https://www.dwds.de/wb/schei%C3%9F

There is an episode of "Meister Eder und sein Pumuckl" where this is ambiguity is played with in the first scenes: http://www.pumucklhomepage.de/phf06-a.html (although I would have opted for Scheißschule instead of Scheiß-Schule in the transcription because this follows the typical compound words describing the type of school like Grundschule, Hauptschule, Realschule) - https://www.youtube.com/shorts/fpIpT6UbinI loses part of the fun playing around with this by always using "Scheiß(haupt)schule" in the transcription.

[u/Miro_the_Dragon]

I use it as an adjective just the same as "beschissene/r/s", so it'd be "Dieser scheiß Ausschlag"

[u/blobslurpbaby]

I'm not sure whether one of the dictonaries like Duden or Langenscheidt have come up with a solution. I use to write it as in a), e.g. "Was für ein scheiß Wetter heute."

[u/embroideredyeti]

Thank you for posting this question, I've been wondering about that same questions for 30 years or so. My personal intuition is that it's a compound (so much like yourself), but I definitely see the majority of people writing it as if it were an adjective.

[u/ojhwel]

(b) and (c) are the same in pronunciation and the "-" is only there for readability (very long words or letter combinations that distract the eye such as "Werkschor" vs. "Werks-Chor").

I would claim that (a) and (b/c) are distinct forms and pronounced differently (at least up North where I live): With (a) it is indeed an adjective and receives very little emphasis ("scheiß AUSschlag"), while with (b/c) it is stressed ("SCHEISSausschlag"), but it is relatively rare to use it for new/rare word combinations like, more for "Scheißkerl", "Scheißjob", etc.

I would definitely go with (a) when trying to transscribe this colloquially.

[u/deadrummer]

Wenn es in deinem Beispiel ein Adjektiv ist, dann muss es a) sein. Und so würde ich es auch schreiben wenn ich es als Adjektiv verwende.

[u/gottahaveajava]

Das alles ist mir scheißegal.

[u/caedestyles]

Until Duden says otherwise, I'm applying the b) variation to anything that requires a consistent style (e.g. novels) but in casual settings like texting, I use both a) and b) depending on the noun being modified. It's one of those things that really feels like both should be correct in different contexts.

My research several months back also led me to the unsatisfying conclusion that there's no specific rule, but that b) is the closest we have to one. If technical linguistic correctness was important in the context I want to use it for, I'd probably use beschissen instead. Also unsatisfying, but... Tja.

[u/Emmy_Graugans → u/caedestyles]

Nope, definitely a) if a peiorative adjective is the intended meaning.

Ein Augenaufschlag wäre vergleichbar, da ist auch das Auge das wichtige. Ein Scheißausschlag wäre vermutlich ein Ausschlag in der Anus-Region.

[u/caedestyles → u/Emmy_Graugans]

Wir widersprechen uns gar nicht. Rein vom Sprachgefühl her würde ich hier z.B. beim Chatten spontan zu a) greifen, obwohl es genügend andere gängige Ausdrücke mit "Scheiß-" gibt, bei denen man auch so argumentieren könnte, die mich dann wiederum nicht "stören". Wenn es aber wie hier gefragt um konkret definierte Regeln und stilistisch einheitliche Texte (wie eben z.B. Romane) geht, kann ich momentan nur auf den Duden verweisen, der nur "Scheiß-" als Präfix anbietet.

[u/IchLiebeKleber]

b) and c) are definitely correct, not so sure about a), though the existing answers seem to suggest some authorities accept even that? Lots of people do actually write a), but I would, until reading this thread, not have thought this would actually comply with the official rules of German spelling.

You already mentioned that you don't like Bastian Sick, but for all other readers of this thread, here's the obligatory link to what he had to say about the topic: https://bastiansick.de/kolumnen/zwiebelfisch/wir-deutsche-oder-wir-deutschen/

[u/Lysande_walking → u/IchLiebeKleber]

B and C are definitely incorrect as they mean something else: having a shit-rash vs. A meaning having a fucking rash. You’re welcome to express having a poop rash of course. Then B and C are fine!

[u/AdIntrepid8326]

Also wenn es von scheißen kommt würde ich es vlt. Ein verbaladjektiv nennen.

Wahrscheinlicher wäre aber, wie die es beschreibst, da scheiße das Nomen ist, dass es ein Präfixoid in seiner Funktion als intensifikator ist.

Also scheiß wird mit dem folgenden Nomen verbunden: ein scheiß-tag, eine scheiß-freude für mich das hier zu schreiben etc.

Also es würde dann korrekt geschrieben nicht mehr alleine stehen sondern müsste mit dem Scheißnomen zusammengeschrieben werden.

[u/Fabius_Macer → u/AdIntrepid8326]

Ein Scheißhaus ist aber was anderes als ein scheiß Haus und wird auch unterschiedlich ausgesprochen/betont. Ich würde "scheiß" als undeklinierbares Adjektiv ansehen und auch so schreiben.

[u/AdIntrepid8326 → u/Fabius_Macer]

Guter Punkt mit dem scheißhaus.

Vlt. Sollte man dann lieber von einem beschissenen Haus reden.

Wobei beschissen und scheiß doch vlt. Auch was anderes sind.

[u/MrPuddington2]

I don’t think I would write either of those. It is a spoken colloquial expression, it does not translate well into written language.

That being said, every compound noun (just like a noun-string in English) turns everything except the last word into an adjective or adverb. So by that logic, my choice would be b), and it is still acting as an adjective.

But I also get the point made by somebody else that b) might look like an adverb (made from shit) rather than an adjective as intended.

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/MrPuddington2]

"I don’t think I would write either of those"

People do write it in chat and mails and whatever all the time. Colloquial German isn't limited to actual speaking.
Also, if you write a contemporary novel or a script, you do have to write it some way.

[u/MrPuddington2 → u/YourDailyGerman]

Ok, the only thing I have ever seen written was “Scheisskarre” - a bad car, not a car made from shit. So that would be pattern b) as precedent.

[u/wernermuende]

A)

I would interpret B and C as a rash that is associated with/caused by the activity of Scheissen.

[u/magicmulder]

"(Mein) Scheiß-Ausschlag" would be stressed on the first syllable "Scheiß". "(Mein) scheiß Ausschlag" would be stressed on both "scheiß" and "Aus", with an ever so small pause between them.

It's not really different from English - "my darn rash" works just the same.

[u/Krickerl]

Quoting Bastian Sick looking on a wall with a Graffiti „Scheiß Türken“:
„Es heißt Scheißtürken und Scheißdeutsche“
Political incorrect explanation, but answer b) and c) is correct ;)

[u/YourDailyGerman → u/Krickerl]

Bastian Sick really is an Anti-Reference for me. Whatever he says we should do, I'll do the opposite.

[u/liang_zhi_mao → u/Krickerl]

Sick didn’t even study the German language