r/LeopardsAteMyFarm • u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! • 1d ago
Discussion Unpopular Opinion: We badly need high tariffs on everything
If we want to have all of these environmental and labor laws to protect our people, we cannot just throw our workers right back under the bus by buying cheap goods from nations that use slave, labor and toxic lakes. We are worsening the problems of climate change and human trafficking and slavery by adding long distance shipping to it and hiding it out of sight.
If we ACTUALLY want to help the environment with our Environmental Protection laws, we cannot just have people in foreign nations do even worse practices than our manufacturers here would do. We need to eliminate the problem here.
Think about this: would it be worse for climate change to have a factory burning coal here or to have a factory burning coal in China THEN burning tar-like bunker fuel thousands of miles to come here drop it off then go back?
Is it worse to have our goods cost more because they are made by highly paid and well cared for American workers or to have our goods made by Uyghurs in slavery in central China?
America's entire government budget was once paid by tariffs on imports, wouldn't it be nice to return to no taxes?
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
You don’t know how tariffs work. It’s embarrassing you wrote all of this without knowing what you’re talking about.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
Enlighten me.
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
You wouldn’t understand it. Full offense intended, you’re not intelligent enough for this topic.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
When you use personal insults, you lost the argument already.
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
I’m stating facts, not insulting you. You are double speaking because you’re not educated on this topic. You think tariffs aren’t taxes. And who pays those taxes?
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
I majored in finance at UW and have had several highly successful businesses that I built from scratch. If we are going to argue from authority or education, I think I have you beat.
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u/InvestmentNo8918 1d ago
Idk what that guy is talking about, but everything you said tracks logically. Bad for the environment there = bad for the environment everywhere. If we care about environment, we need to tariff the shit out of them until bad practices stop.
I work in the logistics industry, it's very much just a shell game of where I can hide this shit to avoid getting hit by tariff. Americans just want to hide the dirty underside of every industry far away so it's not so easily brought to the forefront of our psyche.Good for your accredidation, heard UW is a fun as school.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 22h ago
Thank you! Yeah UW was a lot of fun, but I probably learned about a hundred times as much being an entrepreneur. A lot of the academic theories either just do not hold up in real life or are super half baked.
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u/Ok_Syllabub1099 20h ago
“Tariff until bad practices stop” sounds great until you realize tariffs don’t have an off switch tied to practices, they’re a blunt flat tax. Company keeps polluting, pays the tariff, passes the cost to you, nothing changes except your grocery bill. That’s not leverage, that’s just a toll.
And the “shell game” thing kind of proves my point instead of yours. If it’s that easy to reroute around a tariff, the tariff isn’t stopping the bad practice, it’s just relocating the paperwork. You’re describing why tariffs don’t work, not why they do.
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u/InvestmentNo8918 20h ago
I don’t think I was arguing a point in all this. Tariffs as a tool is meant to punish companies for doing things that the government doesn’t like. I don’t care if it s a tax or not, it’s higher cost regardless. I work in the industry that deals explicitly with tariffs, I am at the front line of this fight. I shouldn’t have to point that out to you.
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u/InvestmentNo8918 20h ago
Tariff discussion is pointless if the underlying problem with companies aren’t resolved, and I’m not about to type an essay to explain it.
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u/Read2Fap 1d ago
why not take advantage of advances in renewables ourselves, while also helping these other countries make the shift?
china's doing tons of renewable power now, they're far ahead of the us in that regard
it also wouldn't inspire the us to go to war whenever gas prices were high and a republican was in office
american companies have proven that given high tariffs they'll still import from overseas and just raise prices for the american consumer
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
You trust any numbers the totalitarian dictatorship in China tells you?
In the short term, we would have higher prices and companies would import. But if businesses KNEW that the tariffs would remain in place long term, they would invest in production here.
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u/peakology 1d ago
It’s got to be a bot. Nobody can be this stupid and still be able to type. Remember don’t reply to bots.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
When you use personal insults, you lost the argument already.
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u/MadPangolin 9h ago
We're sliding into a totalitarian dictatorship? Why would you trust our numbers?
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 7h ago
If you can say that, you are not in one. Try saying that anywhere else. America is still the freest country on the planet.
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u/MadPangolin 6h ago
That's insane cope?
America is like ~25th "freest" country on earth? Of course you're a libertarian deluded by "American exceptionalism".
Human Freedom Index: Co-published by the Cato Institute and the Fraser Institute, the U.S. ranks around 15th globally. Countries like Switzerland, Denmark, and New Zealand regularly occupy the top spots.
Freedom House: In annual global reports, various European democracies, Canada, and other nations frequently score higher than the U.S. in specific civil liberties and political rights metrics.
Why lower rankings:
Personal and Social Metrics: The U.S. often loses points compared to peer nations in areas relating to the rule of law, incarceration rates, security, and safety
Political Polarization: Recent assessments note declines in U.S. scores due to rising political polarization, civil unrest, and challenges to institutional checks and balances.Reminder, Trump has been kicking people out the country who get 1st amendment rights for speaking out against his policies? Trump could blatantly break constitutional law & take away your freedoms & if SCOTUS decides it's an "official act" your freedoms are gone without recourse.
We know Trump's lying about the numbers the gov reports. Why are you acting ignorant to his actions?
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u/MadPangolin 6h ago
Spoiler alert: WE EXECUTE INNOCENT PEOPLE REGULARLY = Not freest county on planet.
In the last 5 years we have executed SEVERAL people who were proven after the fact to be innocent through DNA & other firm corroborated evidence? Modern forensic Studies & innocence project data shows about ~10% of all people executed in the USA were innocent of the crime they were executed for. We have the highest incarceration rate & one of the highest recidivism rates. We put people in prison for life for minor drug offenses.
That's not "freest".
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u/Octopus_s_backyard 1d ago
This is a bad take.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
When you use personal insults, you lost the argument already.
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u/Read2Fap 1d ago
why would they invest here when consumers will pay higher prices? especially when your administration will bail them out if they do fail?
it's not china telling me this it's our own intelligence on the country. it's why they weren't hit as hard by the strait of hormuz being closed
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
If the tariffs are permanent and high, and will not change as administrations change, then businesses will invest in American production as it is their only choice to remaining competitive. If there was a 200% tariff on all imported goods, American production would become the lowest cost production option.
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u/BeYeCursed100Fold 15h ago
That is more naïve than thinking trickle down economics works.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 7h ago
If it costs $10 to produce a thing in China, and there is a $20 tariff added to bring it here, but it costs $20 to produce an item in America, then the companies that produce in America will ultimately outcompete the companies importing the thing.
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u/MadPangolin 9h ago
Why? Companies aren't paying those tariffs, we are!?
So instead, the companies would see no change in their finances, because they wouldn't effectively pay 200% tariffs, they would pass that expense to us. If we're paying the tariff bill for companies, why do they change their business plans?
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 7h ago
If it costs $10 to produce a thing in China, and there is a $20 tariff added to bring it here, but it costs $20 to produce an item in America, then the companies that produce in America will ultimately outcompete the companies importing the thing.
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u/MadPangolin 7h ago edited 6h ago
It cost $10 to produce a product in China & $20 to import it due to tariffs = $30 Walmart pays for product, then charges $35 & customers pay $25 more than product cost to produce. Walmart recoups $20 by passing tariff to customer & $5 profit =$25 profit
It cost $20 to produce a product in the U.S. = Walmart pays $20 for the product...charges $35 & customers pay $15 more than the product cost to produce. Walmart makes $15 profit.
Walmart makes $25 profit with tariffs & $15 profit without tariffs. But to bring production back to the U.S. Walmart would have to pay $1 billion for new factories & workers, so technically they lose $-999,999,985 & will be in the red until they sell enough U.S. made products.
With tariffs Walmart makes a larger profit, & saves pollution lobbying money. Without tariffs they make less & spend more on manufacturing & spend money lobbying to pollute.
So like I said; where's the financial incentive if you actually look at the numbers from a perspective of profit?
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
This right here is exactly why I said you’re not intelligent enough for this conversation.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
When you use personal insults, you lost the argument already.
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u/Independent_End_6941 1d ago edited 1d ago
That last paragraph is the real reason why there's a right wing obsession with tariffs lately. Switching to tariffs from income tax doesn't mean no more taxes. It means a regressive tax that shifts more of the burden to the poorest people and let's the Epstein class keep more of their money.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
If you took every penny from every billionaire, it would only fund the US government for four months. So we return - Did you know the US government was primarily funded during our greatest growth period during the 18th and 19th centuries by tariffs?
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u/Independent_End_6941 1d ago
Bot comment. I don't think you understand what returning to that would actually look like or why we grew out of that period.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
When you use personal insults, you lost the argument already.
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u/Independent_End_6941 1d ago
Your argument doesn't deserve respect. It's not a serious opinion, you're just a troll.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
I genuinely believe this, as does half of the world population.
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u/Independent_End_6941 1d ago
I don't believe you actually support higher wages and better working conditions in America, nor do I believe you care about the environment. I think that's all just bad faith, what you are really after is regressive taxation.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 22h ago
Weird, ok. I don't believe you actually want progressive taxation, I think you just want to throw everyone in prison that disagrees with you. Just like the Communists that murdered 100 million people over the last century. See I can do bad faith arguments too!
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u/Independent_End_6941 1d ago
If you fed every middle class person's face to the leopards, they would still be hungry again the next day.
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u/justanotherreader85 1d ago
I’m confused by your replies here.
In your post you insinuate that enacting tariffs on imported goods would eliminate taxes.
In other replies, you insinuate that there would be a push towards companies moving their operations to the US.
Say taxes are removed and tariffs are set in their place for revenue for governmental operations (which is what taxes pay for)
If the companies and manufacturing comes back to the US, their products will not be tariffed. They would then be exempt from tariffs. Where does the revenue come from at that point? Do taxes get set back in place?
The idea that somehow tariffs can take the place of taxes in the modern US, while also leading to a rebirth of manufacturing jobs within the US, doesn’t seem to track for me. Maybe I’m dumb.
Can you please explain?
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
Tariffs are taxes. They don’t know what they’re talking about.
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u/justanotherreader85 1d ago
I understand that tariffs are taxes.
But they are a different kind of tax than what the OP is referring to when they say taxes.
And OP is under the impression that tariffs on imported goods will somehow allow for US citizens to stop paying the taxes they see taken out of their pay via the current tax system.
But if we put tariffs on imported goods, and we stop importing goods, then the tariffs will cease to be a revenue stream.
So I want them to explain how they think that will allow for the elimination of taxes that aren’t tariffs.
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
They literally can’t. This topic is above their level of understanding. Hence the double speak nonsense.
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u/justanotherreader85 1d ago
I get that you feel that way.
I’m trying to get them there by discussing it reasonably, and getting them to work through the problem.
Calling people dumb and unintelligent may make you feel good, and I do it myself, sometimes. But I was hoping I might be able to get them to acknowledge that it didn’t make any sense (not even really for their benefit, but moreso for others reading this who may be confused or unaware of how this all works). If we just keep calling people stupid and not trying to get them to understand the deeper issues at play, we are going to keep pushing people to the side that doesn’t call them stupid, and utilizes their ignorance to continue gaining power.
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
It doesn’t make me feel good. I’m embarrassed by how many Americans are this stupid. It’s sad that social media has emboldened so many people to say incredibly stupid things.
This isn’t gloating, it’s pointing out the glaringly obvious reason you won’t get a response from them. They don’t have the education on this topic, to engage with an actual conversation about it.
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u/justanotherreader85 1d ago
I didn’t say it was gloating.
I’m also embarrassed by the low level of education and understanding in the US. It’s exceedingly frustrating to see that so many people have a hard time grasping the issues with the current rhetoric.
The issue I’m also seeing, though, is that we are all super quick to say “you’re too stupid/dumb/unintelligent/ uneducated”.
This doesn’t work if you are trying to convince a person to see things your way. It doesn’t help anything. It does, frequently, push that person to listen more to the people who don’t call them unintelligent, uneducated, etc. there is a whole segment of the population that has been written off as “dumb” who simply haven’t had the same life experience and education. There’s another segment of the population that is going to believe this no matter what. There is no world in which everyone is going to agree about everything. The goal in American politics is get enough people to agree on enough things that will move the country in a particular direction. Currently, the US is being pushed in a regressive direction because the people pushing the regressive policies and agenda are significantly more successful at winning over the majority.
I don’t like it, you don’t like it, but just calling people dumb and moving on is never, ever going to move the needle the other way. The Democratic Party has not learned this lesson (the lesson of, you have to win elections to get what you want). And the progressive, far left folks are not helping it. They may have good ideas, they may have a better outlook for the country. But they have to get people to actually vote for it. And when a question like this comes up and the response is “well, you’re too dumb and don’t get it”, that just pushed the person asking the question further towards the other side, and further away from progress. And like it or not- keeping moderate Democrat voters is the only way that progressives and the left is ever going to make any progress- they need the voting bloc. They do not have enough support to win a race for dog catcher without it.
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u/cookeryandwookery 1d ago
Roi on my time investment is what I care about. This moron thinks they’re a libertarian but they’re professing their love of taxes. I would get more out of explaining that gender is a social construct to my dog, than attempt to have a conversation with this bot.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
"ROI on my time investment". What do you do professionally? And why are you here arguing if your time is so incredibly valuable?
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u/justanotherreader85 23h ago
When you wonder how the country ended up in the current condition, it would behoove you to think harder about this.
Or maybe you should ask your dog.
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u/cookeryandwookery 23h ago
They’ve replied in your comment thread but not to you. Why would I want to engage?
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
Personal insults and rudeness have no place in real discussions.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
Ok, I will reply to your questions:
In your post you insinuate that enacting tariffs on imported goods would eliminate taxes. The USA was primarily funded through tariffs, so yes this could reduce or eliminate other taxes.
In other replies, you insinuate that there would be a push towards companies moving their operations to the US. Yes, if companies know that the tariffs will remain regardless of a change in administration, it makes production in America an appealing investment.
Say taxes are removed and tariffs are set in their place for revenue for governmental operations (which is what taxes pay for)
If the companies and manufacturing comes back to the US, their products will not be tariffed. They would then be exempt from tariffs. Where does the revenue come from at that point? Do taxes get set back in place? There still will be a percentage of goods that have to be imported, as there was through the 18th and 19th centuries. This will still produce tax revenue.
The idea that somehow tariffs can take the place of taxes in the modern US, while also leading to a rebirth of manufacturing jobs within the US, doesn’t seem to track for me. Maybe I’m dumb. You are not dumb, I appreciate you actually engaging with my ideas instead of throwing personal insults. I think the big thing I left off is that the US government used to be far smaller as a percentage of GDP... ultimately the only real solution for our debt problems will be fiscal discipline and not having today's generation rob tomorrow's.
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u/justanotherreader85 23h ago
Tariff revenue doesn’t even approach the amount of money needed for the country with the importing that’s already occurring.
From January of 2025 to June 2026, tariff revenue is estimated at 283.9 billion dollars.
The requested Defense budget alone is 1.1 trillion. Nearly 4 times.
Now reduce the tariffs on imports by the domestic manufacturing and production.
The country was significantly smaller, and significantly less complex in the 18th and 19th century.
We are not living in a world that even sort of looks like it did at that point in time.
There is no real world where tariffs can replace the tax system in the US, without gutting every single government program and entity. We are already seeing the effect that DOGE had on the USDA and food safety, and that’s just one entity. It’s going to be decades before we see the true detriment that has been caused by the slash and burn principle being taken to government, and they saved next to no money from the budget.
You have got to understand that there is no reality in which tariffs can realistically replace the amount of revenue required to run the behemoth that is the US, right?
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 22h ago
Would you support a 90% cut to the US defense budget? I would. It is mostly corruption and waste at this point. But we also have to look at all of the entitlements and cut those too. I am a farmer who wants to be able to provide direct meat to consumers and am not able to do so. Butchering an animal is actually very simple. It is straightforward to do if you have some basic hygienic facilities. But the USDA has been captured by the largest meat processors and no one can process meat for less than $10 million in facility costs. This same regulatory capture has happened across most of the US economy. We have to cut all of these government-backed monopolies.
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u/justanotherreader85 22h ago
I’d definitely support some cuts to defense. I think 90 percent is an absolute pipe dream given the cost of fielding a modern military.
Would you support a cut to 90 percent of farm subsidies?
I wouldn’t, but if you want to cut social security, Medicaid, Medicare, public schools, and the other entitlements you are talking about I’m going to want the farmers to be a lot more self sufficient.
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u/ItsMrDrProfPatrick 1d ago
Is education illegal where you live?
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u/BeYeCursed100Fold 1d ago
Not yet, it has just been slowly stripped away for the last century or so. See OP as Exhibit A.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
I was a finance major and I have built several highly successful businesses. If you want to argue from authority, please share your credentials?
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u/ItsMrDrProfPatrick 1d ago
PhD, MBA, and MPH. Your comments paint a lovely picture of whatever “was a finance major” amounts to in terms of cognitive function. I bet you have some fun conspiracy theories you’d love to share with anyone and everyone.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 1d ago
Yeah, and I'm a Navy Seal with a thousand headshots and five medals of honor.
You clearly have no real counterarguments.
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u/ItsMrDrProfPatrick 23h ago
I worked very hard and paid a lot of money throughout my academic career so I could pull losers off their high horses.
Either educate yourself or stay silent. I swear it’s like some people get off on humiliating themselves in public spaces.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 22h ago
You have yet to have made a single argument, which indicated to me that you have not actually had an academic career.
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u/Ok_Syllabub1099 20h ago
Blanket tariffs are a sledgehammer, not a scalpel. I buy steel for a living, tariffs don’t bring manufacturing home, they just raise input costs, and companies pass that straight to you.
“Coal burned twice” is a fair emissions point, but tariffs target price, not emissions. Slave labor overseas just reroutes through a different country. If you actually want to stop that, it’s a supply chain enforcement problem, not “tax everything.”
And the 1800s comparison ignores that we didn’t need a single imported part back then. Tariff everything now and multinationals shrug it off while everyone else eats the cost.
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 17h ago
You are right in the short term or with uncertainty in tariffs. But if all businesses knew that the tariffs were high and would not change for the next fifty years there would be massive investment in America.
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u/TheIndoorCat5 12h ago
I'm trying to understand the how this would work. It often takes years for new manufacturing plants to be built and up and running. What are Americans supposed to do while waiting for the cheaper USA made goods to be available? If the American consumer can still buy the stuff even though the price is artificially high, why would the manfacturers bother moving the plant? If the American consumer cant pay that high a price but its still an essential good, what are they supposed to do? If you tariff everything, how will manufactures build plants and create things at a lower price when all their raw materials are 200% more? What about raw materials the US lacks and the shitty labor practices involved in importing those raw materials? What about counter-tariffs and exports, are they expected to only sell to the US? Finally, if it all works out and everyone buys everything made in USA then how would tariff revenue make any money to make up for no income tax when no one buys imported goods anymore?
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u/JoelXGGGG Self-Proclaimed Libertarian! 7h ago
If we don't have insane over-regulation and anti-building regulations like the Growth Management Act in Washington state, new manufacturing can be stood up in months by competent and motivated people.
There will always be a percentage of products that can't be made here and will be imported, producing tax revenue. Remember - this is not pie in the sky thinking, it is literally how the USA was run for over two centuries.
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u/TheIndoorCat5 6h ago
Yes it previously was, at a time when almost all the things we needed were able to be made in the US. That is no longer the case though. Manufacturing, supply chains and goods are global now. You cant just turn back the clock to how it was. You completely brushed over a majority my questions. If the US consumer is able to pay the higher prices what incentive why would companies have to move? If they cant afford the increased prices on essential goods, what are they supposed to do? Do we let everyone starve, go without medications, medical supplies, clothing ect? How are increased raw materials cost going to make it possible for the US products to be cheaper? The tariff revenue would "never go away" but it would be greatly reduced if your plan worked, still creating massive problems with shortfalls not to mention much higher prices for those goods that must still be imported.
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u/BeYeCursed100Fold 1d ago
This post is off topic and has nothing to do with Leopards eating Farms.
However, in this case, the post will be allowed to remain because it highlights the mental gymnastics, the education level (however unlikely), "maturity", brainwashing, and regurgitations of bullshit from the far right.