r/MoralityScaling • u/ZookeepergameThin334 • 1d ago
Morality of this?
Personally, I'm anti-death penalty for any kind of crime but that's just my opinion. Perhaps it can be changed.
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u/Operation_Onion3134 1d ago
Both can be true
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u/Human-Law1085 1d ago
Both can also be untrue. I think the death penalty is pretty cruel.
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u/nibb007 1d ago
It is no more cruel than commiting a crime of high cruelty bearing permanent effect with 0 necessity.
We are not talking about theft of means for survival.
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u/UnlegitUsername 1d ago
If we are certain of their guilt than perhaps I might agree but typically when the death penalty is spoken about it tends to be agreed upon that guilt has to be decided the typical way.
In that regard, well, there’s a reason that western jury using countries have done away with the death penalty. If they were to reintroduce it would inevitably be repealed once again after a false conviction leads to execution. I don’t see the point of going through that rigamarole.
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u/Taeyx 1d ago
i used be a death penalty proponent in my youth. as i've grown, i've come to realize 2 truths:
1. there are most definitely people who deserve the death penalty
2. i don't trust any person, institution, or entity to determine who those people are.given these two truths, i think we shouldn't have a death penalty
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u/HyrulelinkDK 1d ago
My thoughts exactly. I'd rather 100 guilty people not be killed than 1 innocent be executed.
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u/bradimir-tootin 1d ago
1 in 8 persons on death row are exonnerated, meaning the conviction is fully overturned.
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u/Dingaling015 1d ago
Eh it's actually closer to 4% according to study from like 2014. That number is from the "Innocence Project" and they were only counting their own clients that they represented.
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u/VeronicaTheHitman 1d ago
4% too high
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u/strike0963 23h ago
Sure, but it’s dramatically lower than 1 in 8. Misleading figures should be corrected or else people may as well just say “75% of death row inmates are actually not guilty” or something
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u/BNSable 1d ago
In my entire life I think there's been maybe 2 people I've heard of that has a clear case of warranting it and me feeling safe with a body handing down that sentence. In both cases it feels like an utter waste. Ian Watkins, for example, was an open and shut case. Death was too good for him, even if it wasn't a death handed by the state.
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u/Dingaling015 1d ago
You haven't read much true crime then.
For example, the men who committed the Parker family murders are still alive to this day, sitting in death row for decades. I wouldn't look up the details of the crime if I were you, unless you want your day ruined.
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u/tenacious_dumbass 1d ago
these are my thoughts for sure but not to mention that even in situations where you can be sure that the death penalty is just, it literally costs more in our current system than to jail someone for life
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u/Solid-Leading-7848 1d ago
What if you’re wrong? Many people go to prison and are found not guilty. There are many cases of police falsifying evidence.
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u/DogArcher121 1d ago
I’d argue life in prison is a worse punishment while still upholding the idea that no punishment should be cruel or unusual. We have yet to find a way to kill someone without a significant risk for excessive harm. Also, if a person is found to have not been guilty after the initial sentence, a life sentence can overturned and the person can be set free. You can’t bring someone back from the dead. People who commit heinous acts should be greatly punished, but the death penalty just isn’t the way to go.
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u/VectorSocks 1d ago
Except for the fact that the state is doing the killing. You can't kill, but the final authority can.
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u/TeaDrinkerAddict 1d ago
More so than a question of cruelty, the death penalty is irreversible in case of a false sentencing, reduces the likelihood of victims speaking up against people they know who have committed crimes warranting the death penalty on them, and opens up the ability for governments to execute people for any legal reason, which has historically always ended up being abused to execute political opponents and dissenters.
Life in prison is a far better option than the death penalty IMO, still a severe penalty without all the issues that are created through legal execution.
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u/3720-to-1 1d ago
The death penalty is, infact, immoral.
The problem most people seem to have here is confusing an act being justified = moral. I can justify immoral actions, especially for the greater good. I am anti death penalty in the end and I firmly hold that it's immoral... But I can see it's justification in limited circumstances.
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u/Aggravating_Pair_156 23h ago
Morals are a human construct and are therefore defined subjectively
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u/Vivid_Savings6086 1d ago
Yeah this is the right point, IMO. There's a distinction between someone deserving death, and it being ok for the state to murder them.
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u/Scumbag_McLoserFace 1d ago
Stating a moral claim as fact is pretty crazy work. I would argue it's a mercy for some. I would much rather be dead than staring down life in prison. What kind of life is that? I truly don't understand why people make plea deals to get their charges reduced to life, instead of just being like "Check, please!"
That being said, I'm sure that's not a popular opinion. I believe that the cruelest punishment would be a life sentence, with the obstensible possibility of a parole that would never happen, but I wouldn't go as far as to claim it to be fact.
You are correct about moral actions not necessarily being equal to justified actions. No notes on that front.
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u/WyrdDrake 1d ago
I think you're on the money, since iirc life in prison was instituted specifically to demoralize and punish the worst offenders, since death would be immediate and a mercy. No easy way out, only a long, long time to ponder what got you to where you are.
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u/AwayEntrepreneur4760 1d ago
I think that rapists deserve to die but I also believe the state shouldn’t have the power to legally kill someone
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u/Iamnotabotiswearonit 1d ago
I would much rather get executed then spend my life in jail. I did 90 days and I would rather die.
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u/scatpornwatcher 1d ago
prison time is reasonable to me. rapists and people who falsely accuse people of rape are both dangerous.
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u/RabbitWiilli 1d ago edited 1d ago
Immoral on both accounts. The death penalty is immoral point blank.
Common misconceptions:
It’s saves money. False. The death penalty costs taxpayers 2.5 to 5 times more money than life in prison depending on the method and state.
It deters further crime. False. Countless studies have shows that instilling fear through punishment is less effective at deterring crime than attempts at rehabilitation or nonviolent incarceration.
It gives closure to the victims. False. Research has shown that the death penalty can actually worsen the trauma and prolong the healing for victims families.
And finally, countless people have been killed by the death penalty that were later proven innocent. (Also many people on death row were thankfully exonerated after being proven innocent before execution.)
The death penalty has no practical arguments for it. It’s literally just people with a revenge boner that salivate at the thought of vengeful violence.
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u/ThrowRAWOP 23h ago
Yes but! They should have to able to prove malice. With some cases its easier then others.
I did not want to try and remember everthing. So, because of things like in this quick Google Search!
●Peritraumatic Dissociation: This is the overarching term for a state of detachment or altered perception that happens during a traumatic event. It includes disruptions in sensory processing, where the brain alters what a person sees, hears, or feels to protect them from overwhelming terror.
●Derealization and Depersonalization: These are specific forms of dissociation. Derealization involves a detachment from your surroundings, making the environment or people feel dreamlike, distorted, or unreal. Depersonalization involves feeling detached from your own body or mind.
●Trauma-Induced Perceptual Distortions / Flash-superimposition: In clinical settings, seeing altered imagery, shifting faces, or projecting a past abuser's face onto a present person is recognized as an extreme stress-induced perceptual disturbance or a traumatic flashback manifestation, driven by the amygdala overriding normal sensory processing.
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u/ShellyTart 23h ago
Nope. The death penalty is way too problematic.
But I would say that I agree that false accusations should be considered a very serious crime and the more serious the crime accuses the more serious the offense should be considered.
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u/Sims_addict123 22h ago
I like this take cause it considers crimes other than rape.
I'd say false accusations should depend on the punishment for each crime. E.g. a false accusation with a punishment of a fine is much less serious than a punishment of life in prison
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u/ConnorsInferno 1d ago
As someone who has had false accusations towards me, no. I want to believe that those people can change. I know it’s unlikely (believe me, I know) but it can and has happened. However, I think jail time should be mandatory, and that police and courts should take it more seriously.
With rapists however, I do think they should die but I don’t think they should get the death penalty. It should be life in prison without possibility of parole, because then they’re still not ever getting out AND they won’t be spending as much of YOUR taxpayer money keeping them on death row
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u/tom_friday_ 22h ago
How high is the burden of proof to prove that the accusation is false, tho? And how do you reach that?
For context, I agree with you but also feel that a person making this accusation has other issues that likely need addressing/therapy.
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u/ConnorsInferno 21h ago
I mean falsely accusing someone is already a crime so they already have a level of proof needed.
I agree, which is why I first said I like to hope they’ll change, and also left the amount of jail time unspecific. Yes they need help, but also possibly destroying someone’s life like that can’t just go unpunished
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u/tom_friday_ 21h ago
I've had a similar situation, it was devastating in my case. This was a highly destructive family member and given that tether I have to say I just live terrified that they'll try something else some day. I just want to be left alone, they have their issues, I wish them no harm or repercussion (legal or otherwise) i can't be objective in that regard, it does just such that there's no recourse to be left alone.
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u/RECTUSANALUS 1d ago
The presumption of innocence is lost here.
If it can be proven that they intentionally lied then they should suffer consequemces.
What i want see happen is the accused to be able to sue for deformation to any and all people and institutions that treated them as guilty during the trial including the accuser.
Only if found innocent. Not indecisive cases.
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u/head_pat_slut 1d ago
i'm not a fan of death penalty in any context but i think there's a HUGE gap in raping vs falsely accusing someone.
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u/Supersaiajinblue2 1d ago
Both ruin lives. So yes.
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u/Deep-Parsley3787 1d ago
If you had to pick one:
(1) be raped
(2) be sentenced for rape (unjustly)Which would you pick? Mind you #2 comes with all the social stigma and prison time such a sentence entails
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u/YouVe_BeEn_OofEd 1d ago
regardless of everything else, the jailtime itself is already arguably worse (especially given that it can itself include rape)
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u/brplayerpls 1d ago
Picking 2 is like picking 1 but you will also probably die
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u/ShackletonsVael 23h ago
You'll also have people cheer on that happening because of the reason that person was sent to prison. Rape jokes are always said to be so awful but they are the first thing people make jokes about when someone is getting sent to prison.
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u/Catsanddoges 1d ago
Not to mention if you go to jail for rape, you have a pretty high chance of being sexually assaulted or violently attacked by other inmates.
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u/TopTopTopcinaa 1d ago
Mind you, #1 comes with the strong possibility of your rapist never seeing jail, friends and family members not believing you, having to see your rapist at gatherings, anxiety, depression, ptsd, etc.
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u/Professional_Rip3922 1d ago
People get raped in prison all the time. Especially people who are in for sexual violence charges. Statistically you would be raped more times with option #2.
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u/preteen-wartortle 1d ago
#1 also comes with a massive social stigma. Particularly for men, but also for women. Our society hates to see a victim, even a legitimate one.
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u/Working-Narwhal2114 1d ago
If a crime has the death penalty then falsely accusing a person of the crime should carry the same weight.
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u/Frost-King 1d ago
That feels good to say but the problem is the courts already treat rape victims horribly, adding the risk of a criminal charge if they aren’t believed would mean no one would ever report that they were raped.
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u/ForGrowingStuff 1d ago
What you are referring to is how they treat people accusing others of rape.
Additionally, the option is not "your rapist is found guilty or you die." The punishment is if one is found guilty of falsely accusing someone.
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u/pregnantant 1d ago
Lying about rape is not the same as not being believed. It can be proven that someone knowingly spread a false claim of rape, and not just that the claim itself doesn't hold any ground legally.
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u/Greedy-Style-6088 1d ago
How can it be proven? It is a logical impossibility to prove a negative. That's why the standard for criminal cases is reasonable doubt, not irrefutable proof that you didn't do it.
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u/Derpylord144 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, its two different tests. In the case of rape, the test the prosecution needs to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused raped. In the instance of a false accusation, the test is not "did the prosecution fail" as in a see saw where a not guilty verdict for the accused rapist means the accuser/victim is guilty. What then happens is a new test starts, with a new evidentiary standard of beyond a reasonable doubt has the prosecution shown the accuser/victim intentionally lied to the police/courts in an attempt to cause the accused to suffer possible prison"... they arent proving a negative. The test is a new test of positive "did they lie" and in 99.9% of those cases, there simply wouldnt be enough evidence to move the issue to court m, unless its obvious they were lying, be it texts to mates (admitting to making it up or planning it etc.) or physical impossibility (not mistaken identity, thats not a lie...) or a few other niche cases.
And I'm not saying its a good idea (I do not knkw how it would play out, a lot would depend on the legislation itself and i think it would likely be worded badly and thus be a bad thing). Either way, I just have issue with you saying that they would need to prove a negative.
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u/Plastic-Pattern-8993 1d ago
amazing way to ensure nobody ever withdraws false accusations, leading to worse outcomes for the accused.
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u/ArmNo7463 1d ago
In principle I agree.
In practice it's slightly more complicated, in that a false accuser will never back down if such severe punishment is on the line.
It's hard to prove beyond a reasonable doubt an accusation is false, unless it's confessed.
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u/BaronVonSilver91 1d ago
Damn....while true, people used to be innocent until proven guilty
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u/fierbolt 1d ago
What if the accusation is real but the prosecutor fails to get a guilty verdict than should the accuser still be punished? Would this not just encourage victims to stay quite to avoid potentially being punished
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u/robhanz 1d ago
Failure to convict is not the same as a conviction of a false accusation. It just means "we didn't have enough evidence to convict beyond a reasonable doubt."
Saying that someone deliberately made a false accusation is a different thing entirely. It's the difference between "I don't know" and "you're absolutely lying".
If I say "I went to bed at 1am last night" you'd have no way of knowing if that was true or not. But that doesn't mean you think I'm deliberately lying about it.
(Note that I'm not actually in favor of death penalty for false accusations, just pointing out the difference here.)
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u/Logical_Contact2946 1d ago
This excuse always comes up but it isn’t the reality of our legal system. There is a difference between a suspect being found not guilty due to insufficient evidence vs an accuser being specifically charged and proven to have lied/fabricated the story.
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u/ForGrowingStuff 1d ago
This is not the proposed scenario. No one is suggesting that if there is not enough evidence to convict the rapist, the alleged victim will be punished. Its if there is enough evidence to reasonably believe the accusation is false, they should be punished.
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u/ProfessionalBug7399 1d ago edited 1d ago
The current system has to go back through the courts. It's very difficult to prove rape along with that it's a false accusation. It's partially why rape is such a hot button issue. People often pretend it's unidirectional (false accusations don't happen/are very rare using court data and then saying rapes happen far more than court data using surveys, or the reverse). It allows grifters and just bias idiots to push their views by telling half truths.
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u/Arcael_Boros 1d ago
Thats not falsely an accusation. Not all trials veredicts means someone was lying.
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u/SynthScenes 1d ago
I mean, the burden of proof that an accusation was false should be at the same standard as the burden of proof required to convict someone of the crime.
The accused being judged innocence isn’t proof that the accusation was done under false pretenses. We operate under the principle of innocence until proven guilty. And that should apply both ways.
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u/Doc-11th 1d ago edited 18h ago
Would say yes
Intentional false accusers deserve the same fate that would have fallen on the accused had they been found guilty
Edit
People do know there is a difference between being wrong and lying right?
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u/TruffleDollie_ 1d ago
Same punishment they tried to weaponize against someone else feels like the fairest standard
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u/AshenHawk 23h ago
What happens if the accused did rape the accuser but it couldn't be proven? Now the victim has to go on trial and have to rescind their accusation and try to prove it wasn't intentional, all the while knowing they were raped? Great fucking idea. Now people who worry about speaking out about abuse can worry about more things going wrong for them! Now when your uncle touches you and you worry about nobody believing you, now you can also worry about the death penalty if you still go through with it and fail! Hurray!
How are we proving it's intentional, because nobody is gonna own up to it. And in some cases the perceivable evidence could go against them and make it look like they made it up.
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u/randomnamewhatevs 22h ago edited 22h ago
While the principle of this is sound, when it comes to actual lawmaking this is a mess.
When is something a 'false accusation'?
Is it a false accusation when there is not enough evidence found to prove guilt? Then, as others have said, you're effectively adding another barrier to victims coming forward. Now it's 'just' the fear of social consequences, anxiety about the process of having to relive this trauma in front of the legal system, and so on, if you add in the threat that if they find there's reasonanle doubt you might be on the hook for bringing a false accusation, no victim will ever come forward unless they already have ironclad proof.
Is it only a false accusation if you can prove malice on the side of the accuser? That solves some of the issues, but doesn't resolve it entirely. It still means that if a victim reports someone for sexual assault and the courts find there is not enough evidence, they're effectively left open to being counter sued. The person who sexually assaulted them now gets to play victim in court, drag them into months if not years of hearings, and what is likely one of the worst days of the victim's life is now a recurring theme for years on end.
Given how much sexual assault already goes unreported (due to victims justifiably believing nothing will be done with the report, victims being scared to report, victims going to report but being told by the police that given the lack of physical evidence there won't be anything done and "do you really want to go through this whole reporting process then?", and dozens of other reasons), it would be insane to now also add possible punitive measures for reporting assaults if there's a chance the evidence won't be sufficient to prove it.
You might read this and think "you're only thinking of this from the perspective of the victims of sexual assault, not the victims of false accusations", and you're entirely right. Because I think of my friends and think of how many have been assaulted, and I think of my friends and think of how none of them have been falsely accused of sexual assault.
False accusations are libel, they are slander, and they should be treated as such. Whether they are false accusations of sexual assault or any other thing is irrelevant.
False accusations of sexual assault are so rare compared to actual cases of sexual assault that drawing the parallel, putting them in the same conversation, is at best ignorant and at worst intentionally muddying the waters. They do not belong in the same category.
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u/Aubamebludclartyang 1d ago
If your immediate reaction to the initial tweet, is the quote tweet, you're a weirdo tbh
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u/survivalhunter695 1d ago
The death penalty in itself is immoral. Its also a bad idea to give the government a way to kill anyone they don't like. There's better ways to go about it. I am not defending these crimes, but there is much better punishment than this.
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u/SnooPickles599 1d ago
If we had the ability to 100% detect the truth of something, sure. But immoral if we implemented this into US law because how do you define “false”?
Imagine being raped, accusing your rapist of raping you, they win the case, and then you get the death penalty. That is what you’re advocating for if you support this because that will happen more than most of us would like to think.
A study done by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences estimated 4.1% of all death penalty recipients are actually innocent. And those are only the ones we know about!
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u/Yournextlineis103 1d ago
While I don’t think accusers should die as there’s a chance of mistake instead of maliciousness .
I do think that there needs to be a significant penalty to false accusations .
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u/justsomedudeiguess_ 1d ago
Never confuse ignorance with malice but also never forget the bottomless malice of human beings
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u/Greedy-Style-6088 1d ago
and yet statistics indicate false accusations are exceedingly rare, never mind a person actually being falsely charged with rape. On the other hand, 98% of rapists are never convicted as it is. There are already laws against lying about being the victim of any crime, including rape. I fail to understand the justification for adding additional risk and burden to victims in service of trying to defend against a crime that is already so rare (lying about rape)
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u/shockpaws 1d ago
There already is it is literally illegal to commit perjury, you can already be sued for slander or libel, etc. It’s just as illegal as lying about any other crime and it’s genuinely baffling that people pretend as though it isn’t.
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u/Zzzuccini 23h ago
The risk and punishment is still ridiculously asymmetrical. Life ruining accusations can be made easily and are extremely hard to disprove (devil’s proof). Even if a false accusation is successfully debunked, it is invariably after the falsely accused has suffered irreparable social damage.
The punishment the false accuser receives is just a slap on the wrist in comparison as often people will just blindly support the accuser despite any evidence against them anyway also people stop caring about someone lying like after a month. Hell, they might even do a fund raiser for their legal and reparation fees.
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u/workieworkwork 23h ago
I just don't think this is as much of a problem as reddit thinks it is.
I know a number of people who have been raped and I don't believe any of the rapists suffered any consequences at all. I know women who have had their reputations and lives ruined by saying a man raped them when he raped them.
It just seems like the consequences for saying something about being raped are greater than being a rapist most of the time.
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u/pixxelkick 1d ago
A false rape accusation is bad, but actually physically raping a person is obviously way more damaging.
A false rape accusation has to jump through several hoops to successfully result in damaging the victims life and resulting in harm.
Raping someone always causes harm, immediately.
Also, physically violating a person is much worse than harming a persons reputation.
You have many ways to recover your reputation.
While it can cause permanent harm, it doesn't always.
Whereas rape pretty much always has its harm as a permanent impact.
Therefore, raping someone is a more grievous act.
I dont think rapists should be killed though. That lets them off the hook easy... simply killing people frees them from further punishment.
It also removes your ability to ever correct for a mistake. What happens if new information surfaces exonerating the accused?
You cant unkill someone, but you can exonerate a prisoner and free them.
And people get exonerated every single day. So you must accept theres a non zero chance no matter what that you might be falsely imprisoning someone. So you must always leave yourself the logical safety escape hatch of being able to free them and pay reparations for a false imprisonment.
If you just kill someone, even with plenty if evidence, you have assumed you are completely and utterly infallible.
Thats a road towards fascism, sooner than later.
Also, what happens if you found out they raped a second person? You cant kill them twice...
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u/OldSarge02 1d ago edited 23h ago
It would be an unmitigated disaster of public policy, so immoral.
I’ve prosecuted sexual assault. The most common scenario is that the victim is being truthful, but there is insufficient evidence to prove the case. Almost none of those cases would be reported if the victim was worried about the death penalty if she was perceived as being a false accuser.
Beyond that, victims commonly tell white lies in their reporting, even when the gist of their account is true. They often understate things that would make them look bad, and it’s human nature to do so. People also report things falsely because they are legitimately mistaken on the details.
Further, a great many victims honestly believe they were sexually assaulted, but the actual things that transpired don’t technically fit the definition of the crime. For example, maybe she was drunk, but not so drunk that she couldn’t consent.
We also know alcohol is frequently involved, and alcohol inhibits memory formation. I’ve see a case where a woman swore she “never would have done that even while drunk,” but when she saw the video of the event, she was shocked that she did indeed do that. She wasn’t lying, but her statements had been false.
There are a ton of gray areas, which is why it’s rare for a victim to be prosecuted for making a false report. Introducing the death penalty to that is just going to mess up the whole process.
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u/benjamintobinfan1850 23h ago
“none of these cases would be reported if the wictim was worried about the death penalty” wise words. additionally even making SA commonly punished with the death penalty would also make people less inclined to report it, as SA is commonly committed by friends and family members. most victims wouldnt want their abusers to die and there would be a huge social stigma around reporting it
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u/MoreRule2153 1d ago
As a man
I would rather get false accusations any day of the week then be raped
Do with that information whatever you will
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u/RUDRAGON8 1d ago
Feels somewhat relevant to use here
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u/ObsessionObsessor 1d ago
Where is this statistic from?
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u/Environmental_Drama3 1d ago
source: just trust me and stop questioning my arguments.
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u/razyyy_01 23h ago
So 16% of rape reports are false? Got it.
Not to mention that one week is a pretty small sample. No serious person would take this data into consideration.
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u/hallucination9000 1d ago
Wait, are these statistics just rapes that occurred between October 12th and 19th? Because it mentions posts from that time period, but I have no idea where they're getting numbers from. This whole picture just seems to leave out all of its actual data.
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u/Admiral45-06 23h ago
I'm sorry, but I don't exactly see this as viable statistic:
- It has no date and provides no methodology (i.e. which subreddits were checked)
- It shows two completely different legends.
- It doesn't include (or clearly state) cases that result with no outcome.
I can imagine it being true; maybe, I don't have the data or evidence to disprove that claim, but it doesn't seem well-made, and appears rather manipulated.
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u/BlessdRTheFreaks 22h ago
Yeah but this also so much of this is dependent on subjective cultural processing, that now over generalizes the messy primalness of human mammalian sexuality into the terms of assault and rape. We now overcategorize primally charged interactions that aren't strictly non consensual or consensual into this strict legalistic categoties that don't actual correspond to the animal nature of the interaction.
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u/enbyBunn 1d ago
Wow, both of these people suck. However, it should be obvious that the replier sucks more.
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u/Thecrowfan 1d ago
Immoral
Unpopular opinion: death penalty will never be a moral consequence to any crime.
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u/BruhWaitWut 1d ago
A universal death sentence for making false allegations seems... Extreme. For example, the law would have to account for extenuating circumstances, such as hallucinations caused by psychological issues, or complex, mutually abusive relationships where both parties have 0 boundaries for their manipulations.
That's not to say those circumstances justify a false allegation, and they should certainly face legal consequences.But they muddy the waters regarding outright execution.
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u/deadeyeamtheone 1d ago
The idea that slander should face the death sentence is wild, regardless of the kind of slander.
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u/HammyxHammy 1d ago
If you bare false witness to get someone executed that's very clearly attempted murder and can simply be treated as such without being considered in great complexity a uniquely different crime.
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u/SquirrelFluffy7469 1d ago
Hot take, no one should die! Crazy i know, its like we have prisons for a reason or something
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u/Good-Discussion-9238 1d ago
immoral for both
I don't think either should die, they should be jailed, convicted rapists can later be found innocent due to being falsely accused, and someone attempting to ruin someone's life by making a false accusation should have their life ruined with jail time and not with death.
I also just don't support the death penalty since it's irreversible.
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u/Mundane-Run6179 1d ago
Both are immoral imo. I do believe all rapists and people who falsely accuse someone of rape should get life in prison though.
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u/Gaidax 1d ago
Honestly, I am a big enjoyer of an idea that people who falsely accuse of such crimes should get equal penalty.
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u/R0bbieR0tt3n 1d ago
False accusations especially if it's caused destruction to the accused's life should at least get a prison sentence of a Few years
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u/EinDerVolltrottel851 1d ago
I say that the accuser should get the amount of time the person they accused would've faced
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u/Poppy-Sweetheartt 1d ago
Yeah, prison time makes way more sense than jumping straight to medieval revenge mode
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u/Due_Enthusiasm1145 1d ago
The problem with this is that emotionally its very cathartic but logistically its a nightmare, especially for sex crimes.
Its complicated and I don't want to write 8 paragraphs, so I'll just give an example:
Someone has been raped. That person goes and reports it, and the accusation becomes public. Unfortunately, after an investigation, the police found there is no way to prove it. There was no physical evidence because they waited a week to report it (understandable, its one of the most traumatizing things a person can experience). And there were no witnesses (common). It is entirely he-said she-said. Thus, the case is dropped.
This is not a random hypothetical. This is the most common result for rape allegations. It is a tragedy how many cases get thrown out.
Now imagine how much worse it'll be if those victims who don't get justice then get prosecuted for false accusations against their rapist, with the fear of getting the sentence their rapist never got.
And if someone wants to argue "well only go after the ones that obviously falsely accused", unfortunately that's just not how laws work. There is no easy way to distinguish, and malicious prosecutions WILL happen.
It will lower the rates of real reports significantly.
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u/thomsenite256 1d ago
Eh they should both be major crimes but I am not going to put them quite on the same footing.
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u/justsomedudeiguess_ 1d ago
I really hate the manosphere. The amount of rape reports that end up being false are such a small percentage of the total reports and yet men will constantly have this argument online as if the ratio was much higher
There will always be bad actors for anything. Men or women it doesn't matter. People will use and abuse the system to hurt others in any way they can (look at stalkers. Many of them will do just enough to cause distress but also nothing overtly menacing so the police do not act).
Obviously a false rape report is immoral but can we all stop pretending that they happen constantly? They don't. They are incredibly rare and there's a real tangible issue with rape culture all over the world.
Woman are already pressured into not filing a lot of the time by police and they are often told nothing can be done. Police all over seem to avoid using rape kits when necessary and often equate a rape to "boys being boys".
The more this conversation happens the more men think this is a prevalent issue when it's not. Which I would argue is just as immoral as a false report because you're building a culture where women are not as likely to report their rapes for fear of retaliation.
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u/RabbitWiilli 1d ago edited 23h ago
Immoral, the death penalty is immoral point blank.
Common misconceptions:
It’s saves money. False. The death penalty costs taxpayers 2.5 to 5 times more money than life in prison depending on the method and state.
It deters further crime. False. Countless studies have shows that instilling fear through punishment is less effective at deterring crime than attempts at rehabilitation or nonviolent incarceration.
It gives closure to the victims. False. Research has shown that the death penalty can actually worsen the trauma and prolong the healing for victims families.
And finally, countless people have been killed by the death penalty that were later proven innocent
The death penalty has no practical arguments for it. It’s literally just chuds with a revenge boner that salivate at the thought of vengeful violence.
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u/Jukebox-X_X 1d ago
As a guy i'm not sure I can agree with this. Considering the state of the world, alot of rapists get away with their crimes, through connections, plausible deniability, and money as it is already. Not just in the US but in other places accusing someone can already be a death sentence even if they committed the crime.
More than just this being an obvious problem that can't be fixed easily in our world, we already have women being trafficked, kidnapped and killed and nothing substantial being done
. Do we really need another way for these fucks to wipe their hands clean of allegations?
Its really not that hard to see how this could backfire very fast
Someone just threaten their family and tells the victim to confess to making it up or their entire family dies, or goes bankrupt from the legal fees , etc
Look, as someone who literally has been falsely accused before, its hell. Yes. I'm thankful she admitted to lying.
But if im honest with myself truly, fuck my reputation for real lmao
It can take a hit occasionally if that means innocent people aren't going to die more to these bastards
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u/theowlwastaken 1d ago
Seems like an extremely abuseable system. "What, I Peter File would never do such a thing. I guess your going too have too hang this wicked witch."
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u/Tablesafety 1d ago
An eye for an eye. But giving the state the power to kill is generally a bad idea when things like false imprisonment happen so frequently.
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u/ForktUtwTT 1d ago
I don’t think anyone “should die”, there’s always a more favorable solution that’s at least thinkable. That isn’t to say I don’t think when speaking practically that I don’t think violence is ever warranted, but what I’m saying is that death is never something we should strive for even when it’s someone deplorable. A rapist “should” be striped of their power over others and be detained until they have proven themselves to have truly grown as a person. This is practically very difficult if not improbable to do fully, but it still stands that the ideal outcome here is not death.
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u/gorambrowncoat 1d ago
Agree with both. (Though only if the false accusation can be proven to be malicious, not every rape case should lead to either the accused or the defender getting the chair)
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u/MothashipQ 1d ago
If there was a perfect way to identify these things 100%, possibly. In practice, it's already hard enough to prosecute a rape, we don't need the chilling effect of "if your case doesn't win they kill you"
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u/Ser_Daniel_The_1st 1d ago
These mentalities are extreme but understandable, but the main part of this is to ensure the mentality of “innocent until proven guilty” is followed through.
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u/BIPotter69 1d ago
Both! You will be shocked to see how few accusers die and how many men drop dead. Men are more likely to be raped than they are to be falsely accused.
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u/anuslitt 1d ago
There’s many problems that come with death penalty for falsely accusing someone, but I think with the way rape cases are treated, it’s not a good idea at all. First of all, accusing someone of a crime is not the same as doing the crime. If someone falsely accuses someone I think they should get therapy + jail for a long time, but the death penalty is too harsh for someone that didn’t actually harm anyone that bad.
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u/Glittering_Bag9929 1d ago
Both of these are terrible lol. The death penalty is not a good thing to have. If someone knows they will be killed for their crime they wont leave a living witness. The Death penalty makes it "correct" to kill the victim because you will be killed for your crimes anyway.
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u/Kevandre 23h ago
I just feel like this is a slippery-ass slope.
like, I agree, if you legitimately falsely accuse rape, you should be in jailed or fined REAL bad.
buuuuut, instituting something like that is only going to serve to help rapists. women will be less likely to speak out, especially against people who are richer and more powerful than them. They can be outspent into jail for doing the right thing. More shitheads will be enboldened to rape.
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u/ChardImaginary6363 23h ago
I agree with you about no death penalty
But that being said the consequences of a rape should be exceedingly higher than they are now,
And i think if an adult is proven to falsey accuse someone. It should have the exact same punishment
Both are acts that completely remove someones autonomy whether it be physical or mental
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u/OneEyedDireRaven 1d ago
Agreed on both counts. But they need to actually be proven.
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u/quuerdude 1d ago
What does it mean to be proven? Is it proof enough if the cops pressure a confession out of the victim?
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u/Original_Produce_534 1d ago
Who feels the need to say some shit like that, its just digusting and weird. No false-accusations are not as bad as rape?
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u/Level-Bus-5591 1d ago
How is one supposed to take these people seriously when they think that falsely accusing someone of rape is the same as actual rape?
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u/Sotyka94 1d ago
"die" is too strong, but proven false accusations should have the same or similar consequences as the crime itself.
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u/Next_Aardvark8607 1d ago
if youre a hundred percent sure it was a false accusation, then i dont think its so bad. i would just worry that victims wouldnt want to come forward because theyre worried theyll be called liars. also id worry about false confessions of lying, especially if the person is bought out. hopefully if the penalty was death that would deter that.
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u/SasquatchGenius 1d ago
Some incel went to the trouble of creating a fake female profile just to post that.
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u/Gold_Ad8225 1d ago
The death penalty is immoral.
Treating false accusations of rape as if they are as serious as actually raping someone is also immoral.
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u/Sad_Detective7483 1d ago
if there's evidence tht it was fake and done with ill intentions ye kinda coz there's more than a fair no of cases where false allegations lead to su*cide or "mob justice" the allegations do destroy lives even if u clear Ur name there will be ppl who still think u did it n got away with it like the case with vitaly and tht Indian who he called a pedo without proof and even when vitaly admitted he made a mistake and tht the individual wasn't one ppl still believed he was for no reason in particular
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u/UlloaUllae 1d ago
Two things can be true. Rape is a special kind of evil. Lying about rape is also a special kind of evil because false rape accusations harm the credibility of real rape victims, who are already too afraid to come forward, and they can permanently destroy the accused person’s life and reputation.
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u/apupaples 1d ago
Its to dangerous to make false accusations illigal since this would make almost impossible for a real victim to actually send to prison the rapist(most cases are based on a i say you say basis ) so basically now most rapes will not even be reported
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u/Yaboi69-nice 1d ago
I agree with you. No one should be in charge of life and death not even the government.
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u/Viplive 1d ago
Both ruin people's lives so I can see the argument, but SA creates a lasting trauma with that person for the rest of their lives. I'm by no means saying their shouldn't be repercussions for false accusations, but i think morally their is an obligation to distinguish the severity of punishment between the 2.
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u/Prior_Confidence4445 1d ago
I'm no longer pro death penalty. I do support serious and equal punishment for both though.
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u/Drakouan 1d ago
Moral.
If a crime is punishable by death then (knowingly) falsely accusing someone of that crime is the same as trying to kill them through the justice system which is at the bare minimum :
- Attempted murder
- Fraud on the court
- Perjury
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u/Think-Orange3112 1d ago
On the part of death penalty: immoral
On the part about punishing false accusers: I think something that could work is if you require the one being accused to prove the accusation was intentional
It won’t get all of them, but it’s something
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u/BellaInTheGame 1d ago
Immoral because I'm against the death penalty, but replying in that way isn't inherently unreasonable if you're in support of the death penalty
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u/BeebisTheBoy 1d ago
I think that people that purposely do false accusations should be charged as if they did the crime.
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u/somedudeonachair 1d ago
Its like replying "all lives matter" to a person saying "black lives matter"
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u/OnlyAssignment4869 23h ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/hM9zK1qvsrwek
Never been raped or raped anyone, but as someone who's been accused of preying on someone so she could move her friend in (ironically the accuser was a rapist so maybe it worked out for the best) and been molested by multiple creeps. Fuck em' all.
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u/Elarain 23h ago
So first: I think this question removes itself from reality. It’s more of a “magic button” style one. It’s not “people accused of”, it’s omnisciently factual.
The problem is there are definitions of each and even if we are speaking facts here, I’d need a pretty detailed rundown of what constitutes each one before I’d truly feel comfortable pushing that button.
The predatory guy lurking in an ally to physically assault someone? No brainer. The girl who vindictively makes up charges to get back at an ex and watch him get expelled and lose scholar ships? Probably hitting that button.
But there are grey areas here where I wouldn’t feel comfortable, even if it met the current legal definitions of these things.
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u/_Megido_ 23h ago
Only if there's a reliable way to prove that one person fabricated the accusation.
If there's any possible doubt then the death penalty is a fantasy.
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u/Jolly-Growth-1580 23h ago
False rape accusers should face the same prison sentence they were happy to send the person they accused down for. Death is a bit extreme.
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u/Ender1714 23h ago
Part of the problem is many people don't understand the different forms of what rape is. If a woman wasn't fighting for their life and screaming people think it wasn't really rape, and therefore the accusation is "false"
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u/spicy_feather 23h ago
I'll never believe that fake rape accusations are worse than rape. That's the perspective of someone who has either never been raped or is a rapist themself. Yes they're awful but the idea that we'd punish someone for falsely accusing someone the same way as performing the action leads to people simply not reporting since it's really common not to believe victims. I've been raped and falsely accused. One is exponentially worse.
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u/ISuckAtJavaScript12 22h ago
I don't think she should be threatening the president like that on social media
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u/Final-Royal-8037 22h ago
Given that rape is far more common than false accusations, coupled with most true accusations being excused or otherwise swept under the rug, the response tweet is immoral. It suggest that the two acts (rape and false accusations) are equal in terms of harm caused and frequency which simply isn’t true
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u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 22h ago
This is an opinion which I see almost exclusively on this website for some reason, make of that what you will. It's often brought up usually by (but not always) men in this attempt to convince you of how terrible it is being a man. Yes, women may get raped, but men get accused of it!
From the way people talk about it false accusations of rape are so common that every man has to be afraid of it. Of course it isn't common; it's not even rare but in fact almost unheard of. This is because an accusation of rape has been historically and contemporarily almost useless as a weapon against anyone.
When these accusations happen there isn't always some mastermind villain behind them. There is just as often someone who is very confused and terrified who took a step that many wuuld not and is now, if reddit could legislate, be sent to the gas chamber or electric chair.
These sort of threads always reek to me of a misogyny, whether known or not. It's a statement that women should shut up instead of being terribly honest.
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u/throwbackxx 17h ago
How about prosecute rapists first instead of letting them roam freely and rule over countries?
In a realistic scenario - getting blamed for a rape you didn’t commit has no real consequences. You won’t lose your job. You won’t get punished. Your life goes on as usual.
Mind you, there are people out there who DID rape someone and roam around freely and without consequences.
Really think about it. Is it about the crime either you or the false accusatory committed - or is this about class and you fear consequences the elites never have to endure?
Maybe that’s your real problem and not the teeny tiny fraction of false accusators. Maybe looking up you’ll see the real problem. The politicians who can rape YOU and frame YOU for lying.
Imagine enduring both of these crimes at the same time. You think I’m exaggerating? Oh, it’s already what’s happening
This debate is merely a deflection. And you and you angry little emotions pointed at each other fell for it
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u/Honkey85 17h ago
I agree that all people breaking the law should be punished. The dead penalty isn't appropriate. Falsely accusing someone of rape is a crime in most countries, too.
Trump raped children on Epstein island btw.
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u/Gloomy-Soup9715 17h ago
I see it as magical thinking, no legislation thinking.
Meaning "I wish there was a magical rule that kills all the really bad people regardless of them being prosecuted".
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u/schizo-rabbit 16h ago
god why did I make a new Reddit 🤦 “executing pedophiles is bad MEH”… most out of the loop human beings on earth.
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u/Hell_Maybe 15h ago
I very often see people on social media equate sexual assault and false accusations of sexual assault as if they are supposed to be similar degrees of “wrong”, which is a crazy thing to think. And it’s SUPER duper obvious how fucking crazy it is if you just reframe the question a little tiny bit: These people are basically saying that the punishment for RAPE should be the same punishment as defamation…
Personally I am fundamentally against the death penalty for a myriad of reasons, but regardless of whatever the punishment is for making false statements about someone, it should be nowhere near the punishment for violently assaulting someone in one of the most horrific ways that exists. These two things are not remotely on the same planet.
My hypothesis is that the reason why some people have radically warped views on morality this severe is because they hate women and specifically fantasize about carve-outs that would harm women just as much as men for their considerably less egregious mistakes. I think it’s extremely sad.
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u/DarthMMC 1d ago
God I'm glad redditors don't write laws