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u/Excellent_Sweet7270 22h ago
It's crazy that capitalism has ruined hundreds of lives and yet bots and govt officials and president and their cornball fans praise capitalism and anything else is the devil. it's wild. because they never see these homeless cities and see people sleeping in their cars working 2-3 jobs because capitalism is unchecked and it has only gotten worse. it's like the kneejerk reaction to protect capitalism is insanity.
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u/Boneraventura 18h ago
capitalism needs guardrails. what america has done is effectively melted those guardrails down and gave them to corporations in the form of a chain. your literal well-being is chained up to your work (health insurance). how the fuck did this ever become a thing is beyond comprehension. but beyond that, the exchange of power from the people (voting for politicians to enact specific policies) to corporations which has been happening for decades now will take a monumental effort to change.
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u/Capitalisticdisease 16h ago
Capitalism is the system that rewards and required greed. You can't expect guardrails to stay on a system that promotes greed over human development
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u/sword_of_longinus 17h ago
Guardrails for capitalism inevitably, every time, will get dismantled to place more power in the hands of the capitalists. There is no limit to capitalism, the capitalists can always own more. Unless you want to have a giant cyclical upheaval every century or so where the proletariat is brought to their knees, the only solution is to dismantle capitalism.
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u/KrabbyMccrab 11h ago
You can also do what China does and have a heavy handed government that takes out billionaires themselves.
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u/sword_of_longinus 10h ago
China's guardrails against capitalist influences in their own government will inevitably fail too. There are already cracks, check out the tobacco industry over there. They are just early in the boom bust cycle as capitalism is a relatively new concept over there.
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u/KunJee 21h ago
The ones who benefits from the system / on the top slice of the system will sing praises of the system, while the ones who suffer speaks out against the system.
For both capitalism and communism.
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u/notashroom 14h ago
Or any system for that matter. It's the same with patriarchy, religion, money, bureaucracy, etc.
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u/DrowningKrown 17h ago
Give a man hope that he can be a billionaire under capitalism too is a crazy thing.
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u/Reeves626 18h ago
I’m no capitalist as I do agree that, capitalism cannot exist without exploitation. However I just don’t think having governments(even state governments, think Florida in direct control of property) have even more control and power over property and income is a good idea. Too much power in too few hands. There has to be a good medium between these options. I propose a mixed market economy as we currently have but with a heavier skew towards socialism similar to what many European countries have. The U.S. just needs a lot more industries where profit isn’t the driving factor, primarily higher education and healthcare.
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u/LucianCanad 15h ago
A socialist government requires social upheaval to be established. It requires that a good amount of the population to be organized militants driven to change things.
At the same time, you need a large swathe of the people to be educated in socialist principles, the most central of which is: "The current system doesn't work, for a number of reasons".
So I get your distrust of governments, but it's important to know that they suck now because they're capitalist, not because government is inherently evil.
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u/killrtaco 12h ago
Government doesn’t work if you don’t want it to. Thats why red states are run how they are and officials are considered incompetent, they’re not incompetent they’re doing exactly what is intended
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u/hyasbawlz 15h ago
Do you think ownership of property is maintained by anything other than a state...?
If a government is truly democratic, then government ownership puts property in the hands of the people.
Otherwise, the people who own the property also own the government, so its still way too much power in too few hands.
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u/notashroom 14h ago
The problem is not so much which institution has the most property or power, government or business (or church, or other). It's that the institutions with power outgrow the reach of accountability to the people (or were never right-sized to begin with).
If we had a fully democratic economy -- all businesses either very small, like a sole proprietorship, partnership, or family business or else owned by the workers, workers and customers together, or the community -- then all the businesses would be accountable to the community in which they operate, motivated to support the workers and community rather than just extract value from them, and would lack incentives for regulatory capture.
More than that, a democratic economy would have no incentives or simple mechanisms to create extreme inequality through resource hoarding, as capitalism does. Different workplaces could choose different compensation plans, as cooperatively owned businesses do now, some paying all workers the same and others differentiating according to various metrics like training, education, experience, responsibility, etc., so there would be some inequality of income and assets, but not enough for anyone to be lifted beyond the reach of accountability, where they simply pay for the privilege to get away with doing what others would be incarcerated, enslaved, and possibly killed for doing (or being found guilty of, anyway).
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u/frisbm3 11h ago
You're right that capitalism has ruined hundreds of lives. But it has also been incredibly prosperous for billions of lives.
Communism has helped hundreds of people but also impoverished millions and killed millions more.
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u/what-isthis-even 7h ago
Authoritarianism has killed millions. The common thread is control, not economics.
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u/frisbm3 6h ago
Capitalism gives up control to the people. So I agree, it's superior to communism. It's not perfect, but it's the best system we've got.
Eventually, we'll have robots doing all the work and we can all reap the same rewards. But we're not there yet.
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u/what-isthis-even 6h ago
In theory maybe? In practice the power is held by a thousand or so ultra wealthy that exploit everyone else.
There is no path to robots doing all the work while billions live in luxury while capitalism still exists. Any situation like that would by definition be the opposite of capitalism.
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u/klippklar 19h ago
It's funny that the dystopic visions of communism always describe capitalism for the bottom %. It's because fear of relegation is ingrained in all the workers to keep them in line.
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u/-l0Lz- 21h ago
Bro I literally live in 110m2 flat that will outlive me problem thanks to communism.
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u/JackRabbit- 21h ago
No but you see the building's made of concrete and all the apartments in it are identical, so its bad.
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u/MariaVanillaUwU 21h ago
Have these people seen american suburbs lol
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u/notashroom 14h ago
Little boxes on the hillside
Little boxes made of ticky-tacky
Little boxes on the hillside
Little boxes all the sameThere's a pink one and a green one
And a blue one and a yellow one
And they're all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same9
u/-l0Lz- 21h ago edited 20h ago
Not in my case. Also places here that were built back then are better quality then what's built now.
Communist era apts, flats etc cost more and are wanted more when you buying own place here. Almost double per m2.
I am from ex Yugoslavia so it's not exactly old USSR mass type flats/apts.
Damn sure it's concrete though. It will outlive everything lol. They really built it better and didn't spare on concrete and everything because corruption.
My flat is from like start of 80s. It still like new. New small buildings built a bit over 5y ago literally across me are falling apart already. It's depressing...
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u/IAmNotARobotNoReally 20h ago
They were being facetious, and don’t actually think efficient concrete housing is bad.
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u/leetzor 20h ago
Thanks to communism my family's house and plot were taken, an apartment building was built and they were given a single apartment (70 m2) that my grandparents had to pay for for the next 20 or so years.
There are always 2 sides of these coins.
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u/No_Anxiety_454 19h ago
Damn that's awful . Can't believe they'd just use land to house hundreds of people instead of like 6.
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u/leetzor 19h ago
Yes i really wish you to experience the joy of having 6 people live in a 70 m2 apartment. Its like these meat farms we are so against but for humans.
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u/PneumaMonado 18h ago
Comparing the living area of an average 2-Bedroom house to factory farming sure is a fucking take.
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u/leetzor 18h ago edited 18h ago
Less than 12 m2 per person is the average? Lol ok my bad
Edit: and this is with the common area. You have 3 people per tiny bedroom. Yes factory farming is exactly what it comapres to. And im not even sure why are random clowns trying to convince me otherwise when i have experienced this first person lmao.
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u/PneumaMonado 18h ago
You've really latched onto this 6 person number that the original person that replied to you pulled out of their arse huh?
But yes, 70m2 is an average 2-Bedroom house size, and while it wouldn't exactly be luxury living, it's enough space for 6 people if required (I would know from University accommodation).
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u/leetzor 18h ago
It was 5 person for me because i dont have siblings but im sure there are plenty of families with 6 or more. And yes its enough to survive but so are the 1x1 cattle cages. I dont even know what point you are trying to make anymore.
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u/PneumaMonado 17h ago edited 17h ago
My god, the victim complex is insane. Factory animals are packed so tightly they can't even turn around. The average footprint of a human is 0.1sqm vs the 14sqm per person in your 5 person example. This is not in any way comparable to factory farming.
14sqm is a pretty standard size for a 1 person studio apartment, and considering a shared apartment wouldn't need individual kitchen facilities and bathrooms for everyone the actual living space would be more. Comparing this in any way to the conditions inflicted on factory animals is an insult to them, as well as humans that have to endure actual hardship.
Edit: They blocked me lmao. Though apparently I'm the entitled one for thinking 14sqm isn't an unreasonable living space??
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u/leetzor 17h ago
You are either trolling or stupuid and trying to convince me that its ok to have people living in the kitchen or bathroom or something. Either way theres no point in continuing this, as i said its sad that your entitled asses need to experience the wonders of the communist regimen instead of learning from the pretty-much-recent history.
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u/notaredditer13 17h ago
That's roughly 1/3 the size of the average American house.
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u/PneumaMonado 17h ago
American McMansions are the outlier, not the rule.
Edit: It actually isn't anyway, I assume you're confused since we're using sqm not sqft.
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u/notaredditer13 17h ago
American McMansions are the outlier, not the rule.
If you want median, it's 1/2.5.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEDSQUFEEUS
Edit: It actually isn't anyway, I assume you're confused since we're using sqm not sqft.
I can do math. Surprising, isn't it, how big our houses are. And with much smaller households too.
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u/Rain1984 17h ago
Americans in reddit don't know how good they have it compared to communist countries, don't even bother.
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u/Tolerantantichrist 19h ago
Same here. They took half my grandparents' house and built ugly ass blocks in front of them out of spite and envy.
The current problem is neither communists nor capitalist. It's a mixture of over regulation, lack of land, materials and labor and NIMBYS.
In a more communist or capitalist world they'd build shit. But we currently have a perverted mix of the downsides of both these systems.
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u/SamboTheGr8 22h ago
Why is sub so full of capitalist bootlickers?
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u/Bezulba 19h ago
50 years of indoctrination that Communism is the Great Evil of our times so anything that remotely can be connected to socialism is suspect.
But it gave America their Big Freedom or whatever, so it's all good.
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u/JustStraightUpTired 8h ago
Look, last time someone tried to push communism on my country, they tried cultural genocide then just regular genocide. I'm sorry if I'm a little bit squeamish about it.
And Russia is a great example of both capitalism and communism having the same exact downside. Human greed. Greed for power, money or both, doesn't matter as the result is the same.
So instead of trying to redo the world economic model and cultures, how about we just regulate the hell out of capitalism like we should and see how things progress? We don't need a economic model war on top of the cultural war we already didn't need, we should just focus on the eternal class war.
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u/notaredditer13 17h ago
We're rich so we have a lot of free time.
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u/SamboTheGr8 17h ago
So maybe you should spend your time and money on something useful?
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u/notaredditer13 15h ago edited 15h ago
Flying lessons and African safaris are fun!
[Edit] Oh, wow, you're an actual reddit moderator! Perfectly on brand! The irony makes your head spin:
-Les Mis mod
-Not an exploited slave to a billionaire if you volunteer for it.
-Mad at other people for earning good money at real jobs.
Hilarious.
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u/SamboTheGr8 14h ago
Haha you're exactly as pathetic as expected. If you have to talk about your wealth on the internet you must be super fulfilled and happy with your life. Enjoy, dude.
And yes, I'm a moderator of a sub with 0 members. So much slavery, I can't handle it
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u/BoarHermit 18h ago
The slogan of communism is: to each according to his needs, from each according to his ability.
Communism is a society of abundance, where work is not necessary at all, but at the same time, labor becomes something important in a person's life.
And at the same time, people do not engage in overconsumption; for them, work, knowledge, and creativity are the most important things in life. That is communism.
The closest society to communism is shown in the American series Star Trek.
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u/notaredditer13 17h ago edited 17h ago
Good communism only exists in fantasy fiction, yes that's true. Not sure why people still follow that failed religion.
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u/thekrone 17h ago
And good capitalism doesn't even exist in fantasy fiction.
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u/notaredditer13 15h ago
Good capitalism is the reality in the West. This thread was just started when most Westerners/Americans were still asleep and the butthurt/angry commies were out in force, with nothing else to do while waiting in their bread lines.
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u/avanross 14h ago
Selling out yourself and your neighbours to serve your billionaire capitalist idols
How did conservatives get so pathetic?
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u/MossyMollusc 10h ago
Prison slavery on a 10$ bag of weed is not free
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u/notaredditer13 9h ago
Ok. Are you in the wrong thread/lost?
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u/MossyMollusc 8h ago
The west doesnt have good capitalism. Its a cryptocracy leaning into oligarchy and wage slavery. No time in history has every demographic had the same human rights to wages, marriage, land, laws or water.
Where there is capitalism, there is capital lead wars and assassinations to keep our profits high, as well as terror on marginalized groups in our own nation such as black communities, hispanics, women, queers, low income to poverty based crimes due to no forward mobility.
Capital within families allows few to succeed while other families are stuck without good education, tricks of the capitalist market, investments for free money, or healing from stress.
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u/notaredditer13 7h ago
The west doesnt have good capitalism.
It's just the worst except for all the others.
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u/MossyMollusc 2h ago
Wanna explain how capitalism in the west is good?
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u/notaredditer13 1h ago
Highest standard of living ever/in the world and the most peaceful era in known history under the dominance of Western capitalist democracies.
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u/DaaaahWhoosh 16h ago
At this point I don't think 'communism' is ever going to work, it's too tainted by the tens of millions killed in the 20th century in its name. But I think 'capitalism' has swung way too far in the other direction in response. The people at the top have a responsibility to take care of the people at the bottom, that's the only way the system works. Time and again it's been shown that people work harder and create a better world if they feel like they're supported, but now everyone is so scared and empowered by the spectre of communism that they think suffering is better.
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u/StaticSystemShock 16h ago
They keep talking about SoCIaLiSM and always describing current state of capitalism.
Current capitalism isn't even capitalism anymore. This shit is rigged and perverted bullshit pretending to be capitalism. There is no actual free market, everything is owned by mega corporations that have own special rules that exempt them from basically any obligation or liability. They live in their own world where they just straight up bribe their way through everything and it's all legally because they also shape the laws with all the millions they throw lobbying for shit just to protect multi billions. It's fucked up and it will just be worse and worse with every passing year. This shit will never unfuck itself until French Revolution 2.0 happens. That's just the reality.
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u/UrsaMajor7th Ritardando Molto 17h ago
I think that's def socialism because the tents match; they're provided from a bulk government or NGO purchase; capitalist homeless live in hovels made of discarded boxes and boards. They don't even know how their own system works.
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u/avfc4me 21h ago
Yes. So they can round you up faster and cram you in jails for free labor.
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u/HuttStuff_Here 19h ago
Do you mean in the USA? Because the USA has the highest prisoner population relative to the total population. And many states do use them for free labor.
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u/Porn0323 17h ago
The non-free labor ends up being 50 cents a day. These people who think communism is so bad dont even understand capitalism lmao.
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u/ALargeClam1 16h ago
Ah yes, the state locking people in cages is capitalism.
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u/Porn0323 16h ago
Im confused.... thats what a prison is. Which exist in capitalism.
Unlike socialism or communism, or even a society that cares about reforming its offenders, american prisoners are forced to work for 50c a day in some places.
Picking cotton is often a job for prison workers in the capitalist american south.
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u/cachitonoseastoxico 20h ago
it is, those bastards are planning to provide communities with shared kitchens, and just enough space for bed because why would you need more? if "you will always be working"?
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u/lemons_of_doubt 17h ago
Capitalist: ok yes, but only for the poors, communism will do it to all of us! can you imagine how you would get by without 60k a year passive income from your stock portfolio?
90% of workers: I don't have that!
Capitalist: "well go buy one you really should invest better or it's your own fault you're poor. "
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u/Jarppakarppa 15h ago
Reminds me of that pic of some tents on the side of the road with the caption "America under Biden" and someone replying "Bitch this is America under Trump right now!".
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u/longstrokesharpturn 15h ago
Someone make a meme comparing the capitalist tents vs the communist concrete flats
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u/CapitalDilemma 15h ago
It's incredible how Americans will see anything negative and decide that socialism is to blame while it's usually the opposite.
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u/radbaddad23 14h ago
Keep in mind that Trump’s tariffs on Canadian wood products will make building homes much more expensive. So? Thanks for the tents?
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u/Ambitious-Bird-5927 14h ago
If you live in that bougie pup tent neighborhood maybe, just watch for the HOA
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u/Inevitable-Design107 13h ago
If only a specific generation didnt make it near impossible to build a house so that their prices didnt drop.
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u/ThisIsJegger 13h ago
Its crazy when you realize capitalism is a relatively new concept and thats also failing like pro capitalist people always say about socialism and communism (ngl, communism isnt great but i do fail to see how socialism is inherently bad according to some people)
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u/iFreeiPodNano 12h ago
Gotta love seeing my home town on reddit again. I mean this tent thing was a plan for covid since the shelters were filling up fast and hard to keep social distancing. Covid was the tipping point that made me realize government just makes shit up on the fly and tries to do better the next time.
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u/Rolandscythe 12h ago
No, the current plan under capitalism is that if you don't have a house you go to jail and do free labor for the city until they throw you out so you can get arrested for still being homeless a week later.
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u/Empty-Love-7742 10h ago
People's ability to "predict" the future under an imaginary system, yet cant open their eyes and see we're already experiencing it.
I'm convinced most of this know they're wrong, but their egos won't allow them to admit it.
I'd rather watch the world burn than admit I may have made a bad choice.
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u/Appropriate-Stay4729 9h ago
Sadly, capitalism is actually worse because they've outlawed the tents.
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u/christybird2007 4h ago
Hopefully all those tents are on private land because you get kicked off public spaces now!! 🤦♀️
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u/GodofsomeWorld 22h ago edited 16h ago
I like the positivity that capitalism will provide housing. He might not be correct but hes got spirit.
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u/Wachtwoord 16h ago
I've seen this meme a couple of times now. And the weird thing is, if you want to bash communism, it's pretty easy. The USSR wasn't a great place to live for many reasons
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u/Doomdegree25 15h ago
The way I've always understood it was that capitalism and communism are just different sides of a coin: both offer a promise of flourishing for all people that has to constantly be weighted against the reality that without the proper guardrails, all the power will quickly end up in the hands of a few greedy, short sighted individuals, while everyone else fights over scraps.
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u/Wachtwoord 15h ago
That's a fair point. But in practice, capitalism has proven itself to be pretty decentfor economic prosperity. All countries that were good places to live in the 20th or 21st century were capitalist. For communism, I can't think of any period I would want to live they
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u/sovietarmyfan 18h ago
Example of housing in China under....whatever amalgamation of politics they currently have.
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u/thanksyalll 16h ago
China is capitalist, and I, living in Baltimore, can show you a million boarded up town houses that are falling apart in the US
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u/sovietarmyfan 14h ago
China and the US are both capitalist. Though, China is a bit more "ultra capitalist" than the US these days. With their hyper fast building crappy flats, fast manufacturing of crappy never lasting products, The modern Chinese leadership wipe with Mao Zedong thought papers instead of actually using them. Xi would never help lead the country under him.
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u/CruelAngelsThesaurus 15h ago
I know a soviet dick rider isn't in here talkin shit about China.
What a spectacular waste of chemical reactions.
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u/Memphisbbq 17h ago
The people in this thread are delusional if they think communism is anywhere close to better than what they have
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u/IntegratedFrost 19h ago
Omg so true. We actually have no houses or apartments in the US, only tents.
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u/Made_Human_Music 17h ago
This is a real tent city that exists under our capitalist system. These are becoming more and more common while housing costs continue to rise as wages stagnate
Communism may not be the answer but it’s pretty clear we can’t survive with the greed based system we have today
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u/an_older_meme 22h ago
There is no current capitalist housing plan with tent housing.
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u/RoninActually 14h ago
Wrong. Santa roses in liberal California controlled to run by Democrats for years. This is a democrat problem.
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u/RangerEquivalent4120 12h ago
Hmm I live in a really nice apartment and not a tent. In fact everybody I associate with lives in a house/apartment.
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u/BlueLovag 23h ago
The housing like this is for example in california where left policies makes new housing unaffordable.
I know that and I'm from germany for example. Saw a few times episodes of the living big in my tiny house where the land in california did cost a lot more because you had to check if some kind of gecko or whatever lives on the desert you wanna put your tiny house on.
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u/nof 23h ago
"All I need to know about your country I saw on TV and now I'm an expert."
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u/ctothel 22h ago
Good to know there are right wing idiots with evidence-free opinions in Germany too.
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u/BlueLovag 14h ago
because i know why the supply and demand doesnt work and i watch a youtube channel where people build themselves tiny houses and live a minimalistic live im right wing? XD
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u/MossyMollusc 10h ago
So what about utah burying its public transit lines to force people into buying cars? Thats a capitalist hell hole of a plan
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u/BlueLovag 5h ago
that's a strawman I can dislike and condemn what happens in Utah but it has nothing to do with what is going on in california. Turbo capitalism that you have in the USA isn't good either but california is next level bad.
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u/MossyMollusc 2h ago
How is Cali bad specifically? I know its a boogyman for fox news outlets, but in your words, why?
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u/JTLBlindman 23h ago
I’m really glad you cited a reality TV show as your source because it really highlights the fact that people who think that California is a leftist state are completely misinformed and transparently full of shit.
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u/BlueLovag 14h ago
it's not a TV show its a youtube channel where a guy visits people around the world that build minimalistic tiny houses or modern yurts and live in it to just live minimalistic or escape the housing crisis. Most people in the world do it because they wanna live minimalstic or in peace, everyone someone from california is on the show you hear a horror story about why its 2-3x more expensive than everywhere else and the explaination is always some social or natural conservation policies like i have explained.
i watch every episode of that channel since 2014. there have been a lot of cases in california since then.
it's a supply and demand issue. there is enough free land and apartments could be build more multi level like in germany "row housing" with shared garden.1
u/Grabthars_Coping_Saw 5h ago
Oh a YouTube channel, that’s a great source ! /s
Holy shit this is fucking stupid.
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u/pm_me_fibonaccis 21h ago
>I know that and I'm from germany for example.
Wow, Americans really do spread their culture. Here we have an example of American geopolitical arrogance among a German citizen.
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u/BlueLovag 14h ago
i watch a yt channel since 2014 that visits people all over the world and every episode where someone is from california its social or natural conservation policy horror that increases the price 2-3x
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u/pm_me_fibonaccis 13h ago
I played video games with people from Germany around that time. That makes me an expert on Germany.
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u/Memphisbbq 17h ago
This is the most hilarious "I'm brigading subs to make communism look good" post I've seen in some time.
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u/sten45 23h ago
But you see the difference is in communism the state owns the tent and the trash while in the superior capitalist system you own the tent get fined for the trash and pay rent on the patch of dirt