r/OpenDogTraining • u/chopsouwee • 1d ago
Dog fixation
Let's have a healthy discussion about dog fixation.
Let's say I got a dog, that'll fixate on other dogs during a walk. Not every time and not all the time. We'll use a 2 year old Austrailian shepherd.. for the sake of using a bread.
Walks off leash or on leash.. Can heel, recall and also pays attention and engages to me or handler when need be BUT if we are walking, he is on a heel and he decide to fixate on a dog passing by while maintaining a heel then engages back to you when the other dog gains distance...
Would you consider it a negative trait? If so why?
Would you correct that behavior? If so, how?
Would you do somethin, else? If so, what?
(If this is a focused heel, ofcourse dog will be corrected for looking away)
If you would leave him be, why?
That being said, what if he was on his "break" or "free" command to do whatever he pleases.. would you correct/fix behavior or would you leave him be?
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u/chrisjones1960 1d ago
I do not insist on controlling every aspect of my dog's thoughts and attention. she can look ar another dig, even stare (provided her doing so does not come off as a challenge that the other dog feels the need to respond to), or a squirrel or whatever, as long as she does not pitch a fit and responds when i tell her to do something.
my reason is simply that i like her to have pleasure (looking at things, sniffing, etc) and feel no need to be the sole source of pleasure for her. she is reactive to other dogs, so if i see her staring at another dog in a way that indicates that she is likely to pitch a fit, then, yeah, i ask her for eye contact, put her on heel, and we go elsewhere. but if she is just looking, and we aren't actively training, i am fine with her doing so. I actually like to give her opportunities to look ar dogsvand manage her big feelings
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u/chopsouwee 1d ago
Totally agree. They're not robots and need some autonomy. Its the only thing that gives these dogs some character. How is she during those moments when shes about to pitch a fit? Stubborn and will listen after and or 3rd command, with or without correction? (If using them)
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u/fillysunray 23h ago
Absolutely agree. It's important to let dogs look at things and to give them the opportunity to decide how they feel about it and what the appropriate reaction should be.
If they look like they're about to pitch a fit, I step on and guide them to a safer baseline.
I've met a few dog owners who've had reactive dogs and they're a little panicked when their dogs start looking at other people/dogs. Or they really want their dog to focus so they correct whenever their dog looks away. This is a good way to build an anxious mess of a dog.
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u/Elrohwen 13h ago
I don’t allow fixation or staring. Looking at other dogs is fine, but as another commenter said staring is pressure and it’s not fair to the other dog. It kind of depends on the length and intensity, etc but I would say as a general thing no, I don’t allow it and will redirect or train away from it.
Edit: Fixating is often the precursor to reactivity or other undesirable behavior. It is very rarely neutral
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u/chopsouwee 13h ago
Would you consider it different or the same if he was maintaining the heel or loose leash vs he is on his break? What you consider it the same if the dog chooses to actively disengage from whatever hes fixating at?
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u/Elrohwen 13h ago
I don’t allow it even if my dog is on a break. It’s not a matter of obedience, it’s rude behavior to the other dog and it’s not fair to the other dog to be stared at so I end it immediately. That doesn’t mean I harshly correct my dog or anything, it might just mean I move away or subtly call them if that’s all it takes to redirect.
If it takes more than that for them to disengage then I do consider that reactivity and would be doing pattern games or something to work on their ability to not fixate
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u/chopsouwee 12h ago
Pattern games? Why should you need to control your dog though, just because you feel its unfair to the other dog?
What if your and your dogs presence alone triggers the other dog? Would you go out of your way to distance from ever dog or dogs you encounter? When I personally find other dogs triggered by us, I dont create distance because of the dog. I create it because I empathize with the owner when the dog, barks, pulls or lunges... in my opinion. Why should I alter my walk or pay area just because other dogs choose to be reactive or triggered by us?
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u/Elrohwen 11h ago
Why would you allow your dog to be an asshole to other dogs? Staring is rude. As someone else said it’s like the dog equivalent of giving the middle finger. Whether the other dog is triggered by it or not it’s not polite
It’s also a gateway behavior to reactivity. Dogs who do this may or may not escalate the behavior, but it is arousal and it is a precursor to reactivity. Non-reactive dogs do not fixate on other dogs. So why would I allow this behavior to continue and for it to potentially get worse?
Also if you think pattern games are “control” I don’t think you know what pattern games are.
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u/chopsouwee 10h ago
I dont think pattern games are "control" I was genuinely wondering what pattern games are.
Again, what if your and your dogs presence alone tiggers the other dog. Why should I alter my walk or what I do outside because of the other dog?
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u/Elrohwen 10h ago
I’m not talking about your dog’s existence triggering the other dog, I’m talking about your dog fixating and staring at another dog. In the first example of your dog just existing and not focusing on the other dog there’s nothing you can do, it’s on the other person to move their dog away. In the second example your dog is the instigator, your dog is being rude and “aggressive” for lack of a better word by hard staring at the other dog. So it’s on you to break that behavior by calling your dog, distracting them, moving them away, etc. Your dog needs to learn that he can look without fixating
Pattern games were developed by Leslie McDevitt for reactive dogs. Essentially they’re a simple pattern, a basic one being dog looks at you, you mark and put cookie on the ground, dog eats it and looks back at you, you mark and put cookie on ground, repeat. There are a bunch of other simple games, the movement based ones have been very useful for my dog while watching other dogs do agility for example, because her body is still moving.
They work because the dog learns the pattern of the game in easy environments and then can apply it in triggering environments - the pattern is soothing, they know what to do, their brain has something to do while they take in their surroundings. They’re allowed to look, but the game should be done at a level of difficulty where they can look at their triggers and then refocus on the game. If they can’t refocus on the game you’re too close or it’s too hard. Think of it like you’re trying to get over something you’re afraid of (or really excited about) and you have some mindless phone came you play all the time. You can play your mindless phone game and notice the scary thing in the distance, but you can’t fret about it or stare at it, the mindless phone game relaxes you while allowing you to still be aware of it. Over time you don’t need the mindless phone game anymore.
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u/chopsouwee 10h ago
Think of it like you’re trying to get over something you’re afraid of (or really excited about) and you have some mindless phone came you play all the time. You can play your mindless phone game and notice the scary thing in the distance, but you can’t fret about it or stare at it, the mindless phone game relaxes you while allowing you to still be aware of it. Over time you don’t need the mindless phone game anymore.
Wouldn't you consider this the same as desensitization? Let's say playing tug around the dogs threshold untill that stimulus becomes positive from the association of play...
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u/Elrohwen 10h ago
It is, it’s just one structured way to do it.
But your example is associating a positive thing with a negative. That’s kind of what’s going on, but more so that you’re helping their brain to remain under threshold while they take in the stimulus. If a dog is playing tug they aren’t looking at the thing and I would argue that’s more management than anything else - generally a dog who is taught to do this can’t handle the situation if they don’t have their tug. Like telling your dog to stare at you while they walk past other dogs - they aren’t reacting, they’re being obedient, but often it’s just management and not actually getting them comfortable with the thing they weren’t comfortable with in the first place.
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u/BadBorzoi 8h ago
There’s a dog on my street that does not like my dog at all. I have my theories on why but it doesn’t matter, if this dog sees my dog he barks and lunges. It’s a rather large and powerful breed. If I see the dog out anywhere I get the hell out of there. My dog already has medical problems, I’m still paying off my last $4000 vet bill I don’t need another and this other dog is capable of severely injuring or even killing my dog. I trust the dog to be a dog, I don’t trust the handler for shit. Generally if I see someone with a reactive dog I give them space so that they have a better chance of maintaining control of their dog, so my dog’s presence doesn’t make things worse and because I don’t trust people. People misread their dogs alllll the time. I don’t trust that they can hold a leash properly either. I’ve just seen too much stuff I guess.
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u/chopsouwee 8h ago
Totally understand what you mean. I got a dog that does and feel the same way. Lunges and barks while the owner wraps the leash around his hand at least 7 times and this dog is being choked just to get a grip of this GS while Im walking my dude offleash and hes paying no attention. I try to avoid just cuz im empathize but this dude is too oblivious. Walking with his face locked on his phone.
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u/Cheap-Board-2873 11h ago
You can do whatever you want and it seems like you're leaning towards that punishing fixating is wrong. I agree. There's not really a strong criteria for punishment here. So the dog can't look, for how long? 5 seconds, 10? Or can't look ever? If the other dog is reacting and jumping, can it look then? Or can it just never look? When it's on break, can it look? Or maybe only under obedience it can't look. Seems hella confusing to punish this.
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u/chopsouwee 11h ago
Ofcourse. Everyone is different with their own training styles. In my opinion, the ONLY time i personally will punish my dog is for either breaking a command or not performing said command. I would rather have the dog choose to disengage rather than me nagging or punishing with a -R or ecollar tap. Otherwise like you've mentioned. The criteria for punishment is very subjective and personal. Some people/trainers will punish and some will not.. I feel its okay for a dog to observe as long its healthy within reason. I made this post to get some insight on how people will feel about it. Not to gain advice..
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u/Cheap-Board-2873 10h ago
Some trainers will punish fixation when there's a chain of event. Like dog fixates and will lunge 95% of the time. So they nip it right in the butt. The no bad dogs guy does that sometimes. Whereas Larry krohn and other people, don't. Although I think the cases are different. The no bad dogs guy seems to work on reactivity vs. how krohn/hamiltion go for the whole picture and seems to see reactivity as a byproduct of just poor boundaries. I agree with both. But trained my dog for the whole picture vs just reactivity.
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u/chopsouwee 10h ago
Interesting way to frame it. I personally see it as a bigger picture a byproduct or poor boundaries etc.
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u/No-Accountant-7613 1d ago
I mean it really depends on the individual dog and why they are fixating. Any herding breed is naturally going to stare at other creatures, because they were bred to. It also depends on the context - where we are, what the other dog is doing etc. I have two dogs and they are quite different but both will sometimes fixate on other dogs. With one of them she can be reactive sometimes although it’s very rare now with the work we’ve done. She usually fixates because she does not want the dog coming into her space, or because she’s a bit curious and wants to check them out. I will mark and reinforce when she looks and doesn’t react. Or I’ll create movement, so say we are standing still I will start walking and cue her to walk with me. If I have a toy on me and it’s a wide open space I’ll play with her. Sometimes I’ll just ask her for a known cue. It took a long time for her to even be able to respond to cues when she had spotted another dog. Then my other dog, he will stare sometimes but he doesn’t really care about other dogs. So I’ll just use a “good boy” marker and he’ll normally look at me. He’s more likely to fixate on birds to be fair and we do a lot more work on that where I cue him to watch calmly so he learns that screaming at them isn’t acceptable.
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u/chopsouwee 1d ago
Totally understandable and youre right with the herding breeds.. My guy fixates once in a while, not to bark or pull but out of curiosity(i feel) he can and usually disengages especially when I create movement from a standstill. If we are walking and hes in a heel. Hell look, fixate for a bit then disengage. Which i dont mind as long as he maintains position. Jogging... doesnt even have time to look lol if he does. Its just for a second or 2. Totally fine. He pays almost no attention to reactive dogs barking at him or in the open air I allow him to have the freedom of choice and when he makes a good decision, ofcourse I mark and reward. During play, he almost pays no attention to the public... dogs and people. I feel because I dont allow my boy to chase, ill let him observe wildlife. Totally fine imo.
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u/Mojojojo3030 1d ago edited 23h ago
Is this a fictitious world where the staring doesn't lead to breaking command, ignoring commands, reactivity, pulling, or any other behavioral issues?
Still yes, because fixating is the middle finger of the dog world and it will trigger other dogs. I'd e collar tap. Edit: Yes yes, downvote for mentioning e collar. E collar, e collar, e collar.
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u/Haunting-Love-9333 19h ago
Are you asking the dog to do something before you e collar tap?
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u/Mojojojo3030 13h ago edited 13h ago
If it’s my dog, I am asking him to enter avoidance. That was the first step to largely eliminating his reactivity.
I get that people in this comment section don’t understand how e tapping a reactive dog could make them calmer. That is why they are not my trainer.
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u/chopsouwee 23h ago
Care to elaborate?
If my dogs in a downstay, wouldnt he not stare at other prople or potentially fixate on other dogs?
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u/Mojojojo3030 23h ago
Which part?
I don't know your dog 🤷♂️
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u/chopsouwee 23h ago
The first part.
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u/Mojojojo3030 23h ago
Oh. Glad I asked, that wouldn't have been my guess lol. Fixating tends to be ramp up behavior. Most dogs who are fixating are in the process of brewing less responsiveness to commands at best. Or deciding whether the dog is a threat and what they want to do about it. Or preparing to pounce. Even a dog who isn't doing any of that may be growing into that.
Stares are a threat in a lot of the animal kingdom. Dogs healthily greeting each other, for example, tend to circle each other, and greet butt to face, not eye to eye.
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u/chopsouwee 16h ago
Surr but wouldnt this also be dog dependant? Herding dogs for ex. Are more sensitive to movement. So given... they'd stare.
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u/Elrohwen 13h ago
Herding dogs stare while herding and that bleeds into regular life and they tend to stare at other dogs. It’s also why a lot of herding dogs tend to be reactive and why other dogs are triggered by them. Being a breed trait doesn’t mean it’s ok behavior.
All of the non-reactive herding dogs I know can walk down the street and not fixate on other dogs doing normal dog things. If the other dog is chasing a ball or doing agility this gets much harder and the same dog may need a lot more training to deal with that.
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u/chopsouwee 13h ago
I understand what you mean and this is my dog. After a good play sessions hes neutral to other dogs. If he has some pent up energy, he might fixate here and there but general not reactive and he'll actively disengage without a correction. If were on the move. At a standstill he might need a correction.. Like you said, if theres another dog playing with a ball etc or doing agility... his thresholds typically a lot lower.
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u/Mojojojo3030 13h ago
Do you mean an employed herding dog or an unemployed pet? I can’t speak to employed herding dogs. Unemployed pet herding breeds OTOH that I know don’t fixate like that. Fixating then self correcting would be fine. Focusing on another dog for ten seconds with ears up, stiff body, closing mouth, tail doing whatever their particular breed does, etc.? The reactive ones I know do that. The ones about to chase a squirrel into the street do that. The non reactive ones just look.
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u/chopsouwee 13h ago
Nun of the dogs here would be what you consider an employed herding dog. Who here has a farm and their dog is actively herding cattle? If a dog self corrects itself, its obviously not an issue because the dog is actively choosing to disengage where as the latter, her would need a correction... if the dog becomes stiff, postures up and curious but still actively chooses to disengage, would you consider that on the "reactive" side?
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u/Mojojojo3030 5h ago
Bud, I don't know, lol, I didn't check with everyone here, I am trying to be thorough and not make assumptions. Your prompt was "let's say I got a dog." A hypothetical dog could be a herder, or not, or anything.
Is that by itself within the semantic definition of "reactive"? I don't think I have an opinion on that. Again, fixating then self correcting would be fine. If it lingers too long, then at best, it's going to activate other reactive dogs, let alone develop into something else.
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u/chopsouwee 5h ago
Fair enough, you were indeed trynna be thorough otherwise I do agree... if left unmanaged. It could escalate.
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u/Proof_Injury_7668 18h ago
Downvotes aren’t for ecollar, downvotes are for “correcting” a dog for looking.
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u/Mojojojo3030 14h ago
Wrong, some are definitely for e collar, we get e collar crusaders here too, and it’s not correcting for looking. Reread it. It is correcting for fixating. Looking is different than fixating.
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u/sunny_sides 20h ago
Fixating on other dogs is never good because it's not neutral, it's putting pressure on the other dog. I don't allow it.
If it happens that means I have to train more with easier distractions and keep further away from other dogs. In the moment I try to break the behaviour by getting their attention (vocally) or changing direction.