I argue that it is not reasonable to blame the husband or providers in this case
If they would have ripped the kids away and put them in somebody else's custody, which was the only other thing that could have done besides the things they were already doing (a nanny, daycare for the two older kids, husband had to stay at home job and took 12 weeks off which is the maximum available in America, family and friends came over to babysit and help out regularly), people would have lost their fucking minds and said that depression is not a reason to separate a mother from her children because millions of mothers with way less support than she had suffer from postpartum depression without harming their children. So the entire world would have argued there was no reason to separate them prior. And she was only left alone for a half hour when she killed them. She took that half hour that she was left alone with nobody expected to come help as her chance. And she had to squeeze that chance in because they was not a whole lot of time that she was left alone
Her concerns were very much taken seriously. She was given therapy, medication, and actual assistance. Her diary made it clear that she did not feel that having 10 times the resources and help that most other women have was not good enough. Because at the end of the day she had something she wanted to do. All the help she was getting be damned
I didnt even list everything she had. She was CUSHY. And had help out the WAZOO. She didnt want it. Her diary knowing all that reads like she wanted to be the poor little rich girl no one loved and everyone is feeding that fantasy of hers now.
Its upsetting because this is a terrible, horrible, absolutely vile case to point to and advocate for PPD and PPP with. She is not the victim, let a lone a victim worth championing for the cause if you want it taken seriously.
She had all the help she was supposed to get. And still made the decision women who dont have resisted making. With intent. With knowledge. Without any confusion of WHAT she was doing. Just a twisted sense of right and wrong and why.
And if we are letting people out because they killed somebody, let alone a child, because they had a twisted sense of right and wrong and could not tell you why they did it, there are a whole lot of men that would not be in jail. A whole lot of men who had Netflix specials about them even. We absolutely cannot allow such a flimsy excuse to become precedence.
Somebody receiving but rejecting assistance with mental health who goes on to murder their own children, let alone anybody, should not be able to use mental health as an excuse that warrants a reduced consequence
Everyone in this damn thread needs to see your comment above this... I'm still seeing some arguing that all of that wasn't enough and it was still the husband's fault even after seeing this. So unbelievably fucked up
It’s the typical, “im going to come to a conclusion based on stereotypes or prejudiced views and then find evidence to support my hunch based on distaste of this person based on how I group them instead of trying to find the truth”
These are the first people to go silent when conflicting evidence disproves their alternative facts or they ride the disinformation train all the way to crazy town. It seems more common than not honestly.
Except not, because this poster isn’t part of her mental health team and therefore has no idea how well tailored that mental health care was. And whatever mental health resources are offered, they need to diagnose the correct issue and be appropriately tailored. Granted I wasn’t part of her mental health team either, but as a psychologist purely reading what seem to be pretty unbiased articles, it really doesn’t seem that the support was adequate. A proper admission to a mother and baby unit for assessment and treatment would have been a start.
Having said that, all the conspiracy theories make me feel quite nauseous.
You don't get off from murder because your numerous mental health resources weren't good enough. Most murderers have mental health issues that aren't treated properly. She checked herself out of a mental health hospital. They had numerous people watching her and the kids throughout the day for weeks leading up to it. She waited until the 30 minutes window where everyone had left before she murdered her kids.
Why is it only in the case of a well of suburban white woman that she's not fully responsible for her crimes?
It’s not a case of “getting off from murder”, but if she was truly out of touch with reality due to her mental state then culpability should be viewed differently. Ftr I have worked with mental unwell offenders in medium secure units in the UK (solely men, predominantly MoC) and I hold exactly the same views. In cases where they committed crimes when mentally well and then became very unwell in prison -they should continue to be considered as legally culpable of their index offences. In some cases the index offences happened when they were floridly psychotic - the assessment of culpability changes but they still need detainment under criminal clauses of the MHA due to their potential risk. IME, those who have committed truly awful crimes when very unwell, particularly when they have been towards family members, tend to stay longer in institutions because when they get clarity again, they’re so horrified at what they’ve done they automatically relapse.
As I’ve said in the other comment I’ve just replied to, I’m stepping back from this conversation now. There is too much that replies on speculation to be able to continue, but I will keep an open mind about her mental state at the time of the offences until the verdict. More broadly there is an interesting, more general conversation to be had about when intrusive anxious thoughts cross the line into full blown delusion but I don’t think that’s going to be had here, at least with the balance and curiosity that I think that conversation requires.
Her psychiatrist was never even made aware of homicidal thoughts. From one doc to another, on what fucking basis would you have involuntarily admitted her to a hospital. She and her collateral information only ever expressed passive SI. Nothing active. And no HI. You know damn well half your patient panel or more meets that criteria and you’re not involuntarily admitting all of them. Fuck off your high horse- you worsen the medical community for all involved.
What makes you think it needed to be an involuntary admission? From what I have read, she was actively requesting further mental health support. Mother and baby units can be absolutely brilliant resources in these sorts of circumstances where mother’s feel too torn to be admitted away from their babies.
But honestly, because of the exact need to remain mindful that even those of us in mental health can only ever have limited details about these cases, the only assertion I’ve made is that for whatever myriad of reasons, the care she was receiving wasn’t sufficient for her needs. Which it evidently wasn’t because of how things spiralled into its tragic conclusion. That could be for a variety of reasons which I’m deliberately not speculating on, but I do think it’s fair to challenge the simplistic narrative of “poor ungrateful rich woman not satisfied with her more than ample treatment”, which was being taken here by some as fact. As someone who works with people who are often failed by more basic/manualised therapy approaches, I tend to find it’s a narrative that at least benefits from challenging.
She was 8 months out from delivery. What mother-baby unit would have taken her?
She was admitted once to an inpatient stay and self-discharged. She didn’t meet criteria for a hold.
If someone has a stroke despite maximal medical therapy, we don’t consider the system as having failed them. We look at whether they got the right treatment, and recognize that sometimes everything can be done right and a bad outcome occurs. Medicine isn’t “solved”. People have bad outcomes despite the right steps being taken. And this is true in psychiatry too. The blame her care team is receiving when there is nothing factually to argue for bad care is laughable. This is why every physician argues that malpractice cases are a hoax- a jury of peers would consist only of other physicians, not lay people who can’t understand whether standard care was applied or not.
In the UK women with 8 month old babies have definitely been admitted to M&B units. Specific postnatal MHS cover from dedicated services cover the first year of a baby’s life. If that’s not the case in the USA then perhaps that’s a useful conversion in itself?
We’re getting into speculative territory here for what the reasons for discharge were. I have seen suggestions that this situation was not nearly as straight forward as you’re suggesting -however as neither of us have been in that courtroom, that will presumably have to come out in the proceedings both Clancy and her ex husband have started against medical facilities.
However there are definitely times when MHS (and physical health, social care etc) can mess up, with a lack of professional coordination and failing to join the dots being a fairly common theme when it happens. Whether that is the case here will have to come out in time, but automatically assuming that MHS can never do any wrong in situations like this doesn’t help care. All systems in general deserve scrutiny, particularly when something goes wrong like this.
I am stepping back from this conversation now because the only way any further conversation about this particular case can happen is through speculation that I am not prepared to do online.
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u/HobbyHoardingHoney 13d ago
I argue that it is not reasonable to blame the husband or providers in this case
If they would have ripped the kids away and put them in somebody else's custody, which was the only other thing that could have done besides the things they were already doing (a nanny, daycare for the two older kids, husband had to stay at home job and took 12 weeks off which is the maximum available in America, family and friends came over to babysit and help out regularly), people would have lost their fucking minds and said that depression is not a reason to separate a mother from her children because millions of mothers with way less support than she had suffer from postpartum depression without harming their children. So the entire world would have argued there was no reason to separate them prior. And she was only left alone for a half hour when she killed them. She took that half hour that she was left alone with nobody expected to come help as her chance. And she had to squeeze that chance in because they was not a whole lot of time that she was left alone
Her concerns were very much taken seriously. She was given therapy, medication, and actual assistance. Her diary made it clear that she did not feel that having 10 times the resources and help that most other women have was not good enough. Because at the end of the day she had something she wanted to do. All the help she was getting be damned