She-Hulk absolutely had flaws, but it absolutely killed me when she just, instead of wrapping the season by doing something, does it by fourth wall break and just declares herself the winner.
That, and the entire thing of "I'm a woman so I know how to control my emotions" not when you're a being of literal rage but okay. The rest of the show was honestly fine, nothing I'm clamoring for a season 2 of, but yeah, feels vastly overhated
I have issues when a property makes other properties, that were already good, less good in retrospect (because of lazyness or ideology in this case I don't care which).
Their explanation of her having complete control of an other worldy rage monster that lives insider her because shes a woman that gets cat called sometimes undermined a 15 year arch of bruce banner going through the most unspeakable tragedies and coming out the other side.
In a vacuum where the hulk doesn't exist, sure whatever i don't care. But now every movie with hulk is a little bit worse because it turns out bruce banner is just a fragile baby and doesn't understand how to handle a sidewise comment from a stranger.
Honestly, the best explaination for She-Hulk not having the issue was right there but they completely ignored it/wanted to claim she was some savant of 'controlling her rage' and that men are rage machines.
Bruce and the Hulk are two separate entities in one body. The hulk isn't just 'mad bruce,' he's another consciousness that takes over and gets stronger the madder he gets. It's not that Bruce loses control of his emotions and flies into a rage, it's that he gets taken over by a being of pure rage.
She-Hulk gets the powers and can change, but she doesn't have aHulkliving in the back of her head rent-free. If she gets mad, she may lose control over herself, but there's nothing there that is going to take over her body and send her on a rampage.
Red Hulk will be an interesting case if/when we get to see more of him, as to whether or not he actually has a 'hulk' in him or if he is just Ross losing control and flying into a rage.
I think you missed the point. The Hulk is NOT Bruce Banner and that is the entire point of his presence in Ragnarok and Infinity War. They're not the same person. They only share a body.
Congrats, you learned that Banner and the hulk have rage issues. How many years did that take you? You’re pissed off at a comedy for having an offbeat premise entirely because you assumed this was a Hulk show
The point is banner was brutally abused as a child, and had to deal with the fact he turned into a monster whenever he got angry due to the incompetence of a nuclear testing facility. And Gen got cat called. Of the 2 who should have experienced anger consistently enough to be able to hold control over the hulk? It sure as shit isn't she hulk.
Come up with any other reason for why she can control it, say gen being a 2nd generation hulk gives her a more diluted version of the hulk, say because banner finally gained control over the hulk when she was infected, she got a controllable version of the hulk. Don't claim the abused child whos murdered people against his will isn't as in control of his emotions as a woman who got cat called.
I would expect a women who gets cat called and comes from a healthy home to be much more in control of her emotions than the guy that was abused as a child.
Yeah but she's not. We never see the mcu banner losing his cool, its clear he's pissed at Wanda and still doesn't transform. Jen on the other hand transforms into she hulk just because banner told her she needs a handle on her emotions. He's clearly got a handle on his emotions in banner form, so the excuse of Jen controlling her emotions letting her have complete control over the hulk clearly just doesn't track.
Idk why we're trying to defend marvel here for literally going the complete opposite of comic hulk every step of the way. Strongest avenger? Loses every battle. Highly resistant to mind control? He's the one avenger that gets his mind controlled in age of ultron and brand new day.
Sorry, but you're not gonna be able to convince me marvel is right in any capacity to do with hulk.
Bruce is the one with anger issues BECAUSE of the abuse.
Jen didn’t get abused and doesn’t have anger issues. It’s not nearly the trigger that Bruce has. For Bruce it’s a defense mechanism and so is the Hulk persona. It’s why when Jen changes she’s still Jen.
Yes, her getting catcalled isn’t the same as the abuse, but they’re also operating under the faulty assumption that anger is a trigger for her with the same outcomes as it is for Bruce. It isn’t.
When Bruce gets angry because of his trauma, he is overtaken by a different personality (Hulk). When Jen gets angry, she’s still Jen, just an angry version.
This is true…but the show doesn’t seem to get that. The show is saying that she knows how to control her emotions because she has to deal with getting catcalled. And that is absolutely insane.
It literally doesn't do that. Jen is confident she can control her anger, and then a few episodes later absolutely loses her cool and blows up, causing herself a lot of trouble.
Pretty much. The show says: "I'm a woman, so I'm better."
The actually facts are: "Bruce has suffered so much and has had to relearn how to control himself. Having Hulk be a part of him initially made it more important for him to exercise further control over himself and that's why he's so careful about it. She-Hulk never had to relearn something so important because she didn't suffer the way he did."
Exactly, isn't there a scene in the show where Bruce traps Jen in a torture room to essentially figure out what her trigger is since it isn't rage but rather fear?
I think She-Hulk also suffered from the wrong audience. Obligatory "it has its flaws" sentence clause, but a lot of people's criticisms seem to revolve around things that are just how She-Hulk operates. The 4th wall breaks (she was doing that before Deadpool was even a character), having muuuuuuuuuch better control of her powers, hell the infamous twerking scene is wildly in character. It's totally fine to dislike the character She-Hulk, I know some people who hate the whole dorky, quirky personality, and therefore really don't like Kamala Khan. But I think the show got some unnecessary flak.
Yeah that's my main issue, I can point out these flaws but I still loved most of the humor and other moments in the show, it wasn't utter trash like everyone online keeps making it out to be.
The whole point of the “I know anger” bit was to be a set up with the climactic scene being the punch line. It was entirely intended to be a holier than thou moment. Pride comes before the fall, as they say.
It’s very amusing how you seem to know absolutely nothing about the character.
Everything you’re complaining about is exactly what she is lol.
In one comic she wins by “escaping” the comic, scrunching it up and tossing it in the trash. She breaks the 4th wall in more spectacular ways than even Deadpool does, it’s what she does.
And the notion about her controlling her emotions, yeah no shit Sherlock, it’s what makes her different from Bruce Banner.
She Hulk did alright considering the source material but... the source material was also pretty bad. It was a bad character concept with a bad series based off of it, and I respect them for having done as well with it as they did but dont understand why they had to do anything with it at all.
Because people form their opinions without seeing the show and from bandwagons. Most of the people parroting this have never seen She-Hulk, they saw some 19 year old reviewer roast it on youtube and that 19 year old probably only watched it because hating on it was a way to get clicks. Usually if you follow back the train for this stuff you'll find it was started by some vaguely culture war related right wing stuff. But 90% of the comments you can safely assume are from people who have never actually watched the show, I know I didn't, but if this show generated half as much viewership as it did youtube hate videos then their would have been a second season already.
The incredible thing about She-Hulk was the negative viewer reviews were out even before the series was shown. They even parodied it inside the actual show itself.
I liked it. It wasn't Earth shatteringly good but I enjoyed watching it. It was a nice change of pace.
A self aware character who wants to be in an Ally McBeal type lawyer TV show but who constantly gets pulled into a "Marvel" one. She even breaks into the Netflix app so she can find and berate the Marvel writers for constantly messing with her life.
It's a great concept that unfortunately fell foul of the right wing hate grift.
Honestly, I feel like there was also a difference of expectations.
It was okay. Different tone but then again, so was Wandavision or Loki.
What felt weird for me was how... cheap... it looked. All the TV shows had weaker moments but She Hulk especially really didn't look like 25 million per episode. Inflation adjusted they spent more per minute of runtime than Game of Thrones during their peak. The other two shows were smarter with their budget allocation and did look better in my opinion.
But She Hulk specifically feels like they had more issues than usual during production. With this steep of a budget, it should have been higher quality overall. Or it was one of the victims of "let's turn the movie into a series", like Obi-Wan.
We've seen right wing hysteria before but it tends to not stick, if the movie / series is actually great. See KPop Demon Hunters. Which the grifters also really didn't like but no one cares because god damn did that slap.
Not far right tard here, thats just you and maybe two other people if we are keeping it a buck. The comedy is painfully bad and the lawyer aspect of the show is handled terribly. It was written by a team too incompetent to understand law and it shows.
Well that’s kind of the problem. I enjoyed the show as a self-contained thing. I think it could be funny and looked forward to the new episodes. It wasn’t the show of my life or anything reminisce about, but it was a little fun pleasure.
But that’s all it could be.
As one of the new header titles of the biggest transition of the biggest cinematic universe ever with a very dedicated fanbase… it failed spectacularly. We go from the juicy tension between an uncontainable being of primal rage and a well intended genius trying to save the world to… a navel gazing self-aware lawyer who is “better than the hulk at handling the tension because of being a woman” and her biggest problem in life are men. Like, come on. That can be a valid, funny, or different angle for something else, but here I can understand why it comes across obnoxious.
Doesn’t help how it all was mismanaged, with an over inflated budget and a controversial reception, and of course, the never ending “is criticism because of gender or because of writing” noise that just makes any public discussion a mud swinging contest.
i loved the wall-breaking last episode lol, everything was going to shit and i was starting to think what is going on with the series atm and then i was like lol even she-hulk was like wtf is going on
It's because the internet made decisions about the show based on reporting from bad faith reviewers who turned it into a gender issue and then turned it into a pit fight. From there it slowly got revealed how many people hated the show because they had been told to, not because they had actually watched it.
The show is a B- at worst and issues with the writing, effects, and themes are pretty purposed once you dig deep enough.
Because at least in shehulks case, it's specifically designed to push a narrative.
The franchise was huge enough for the feminazi leeches to try to corrupt it, simply for the awareness. It flopped most expectantly.
She had no personality. No struggles. No challenges. She was "perfect" (dogshit personality, 0 maturity, 0 clue about the reality she lives in, but otherwise perfectly capable and equipped to face any and all adversity with ease), unlike every other character you've grown to love to watch.
Overall a failure of writing, the mistake of preaching leftist/feminazi slop and a smaller interest I'm the universe after people had enough of it, especially after how impotent they made the actual Hulk. (most likely gutted him to shoehorn this thing in)
tbh, its not only the shit writing, its the excecutives fucking writers up forcing them to make the charcters suppousedly "appealing" to specific sectors and audiences to cover the market shares. I hate the "forced inclusion" argument used by racists and mysoginists, but lets be honest, while it is amazing to have representation in media, it is so fucking awful when this representation is only done to cover a market share because disney execs think people will only watch it because "Oh! hulk and ironman are girls now" or "captain is now black".... which is super stupid for execs to expect that, because the succesful films already had diverse representations which were not there just to cover a market share, characters fell consistent in their own ways. These characters feel forced because the poor writers have to find an excuse to make them "inclusive" ... (i know i sound crazy, but i really do like diverse media, but i do not like it when it is done just as an excuse to cover marketshares)
Totally agree but I don't understand how that criticism is different from the "forced inclusion" criticism of "racists and misogynists". Not saying you're one, rather how are they that for having the same opinion.
I know there's shitty people who scream at the sight of a minority but I don't think we're talking about them here. The "forced inclusion" criticism which I hear a lot is about bad writing resulting from exec-imposed quotas and messaging.
yeah, that's why i hate this take so much, because in the end there is no difference. The end product is terrible for a various amount of reasons, but because it has minorities included, it is blamed on that fact, because it is the most notable difference from the previous successful materials.
In the end, people usually blame the failure of a cultural product on the most notable of its lackings, in this case, the writing brought down by corporate greed, which in this case is displayed as the inclusion of a diverse cast, which is not diverse for the right reasons:
People appreciate authenticity, and when a cultural product feels like its only trying to sell, instead of telling an actual story, people tend to dislike it. It is the lack of Soul in them, that people hate, not the diverse cast.
So, if we both agree that the reason the product is bad is because of a culture of forcing writers to add messaging into their work, and not the presence of minorities which are part of this messaging, are we still racists and misogynists for calling it out?
well, the product is not bad because of culture forcing per-se, it is bad for using the minorities as an excuse for the expansion of the potential customers (and therefore revenue).
Racists hate it because the minorities are included. We hate it, because it is a blatant example of the colonialist nature of capitalism, in which non-dominant groups of people are used for the benefit of privileged individuals.
In this case, they are misusing the identities and cultures for the sake of revenue. which is why it feels void and bland.
therefore why racists still hate things like the spiderverse movies, but they are widely loved by much more people. Because it actually embraces the identities and cultures of the characters as part of them, instead of just being an excuse to sell tickets or disney+ subscriptions
I said "culture of forcing" but in any case I still kind of agree with what you said.
Although my main point is to be careful when labeling people because our argument can also be reduced to "forced inclusion" and we agree that we're not racist. So if someone says they don't like "forced inclusion" in media, that doesn't make them a raging bigot, gotta be mindful of that.
"I don't like Miles because spiderman isn't black" though? Straight to jail lol
Well, yeah definitely, there is always nuance. But that's why I try not to use the forced inclusion narrative, because it is always associated with hateful rethoric. And instead I go more with a "this series sucks ballz because execs are a bunch of greedy counts, who will paint their mother's faces black if they need to"
I, on the other hand, like to show nuance in rhetoric and try to details my opinions to show they're not hateful even though they might use words co-opted by shitty people.
It kinda feels like Marvel didn't actually care about a lot of these marvel shows. It feels like with She Hulk and Iron heart at least, they just needed to hit a quota of an amount of shows to put onto Disney+ each year. I think that's why minor characters like Ironheart are getting shows in the first place. For Falcon and the Winter Soldier, I actually thought the show was decent. Not perfect but decent.
They were pushing quantity instead of ensuring quality. Some of the shows were absolute hits(Loki, moon knight, What if for those first two seasons, Idk what the fuck happened in the third, they really dropped the ball on that). Others were bad, and some were straight up gaslighting like the main character we were following wasn’t in the wrong completely.
I watched it. Fucking awful. To be fair some of the other marvel movies were shit too. Iron Man 3, Hulk, Thor 2, etc. So it isn’t alone. But it was not good.
She Hulk was worse. That was basically wish fulfilment for the writers that was somehow worse than 80s James Bond films.
Edit: Cool to see someone call me a racist for hating a show most hated. Stay classy, reddit. Iron Man 3 was shit too. I guess I'm also racist against Tony Stark. And Thor. And hulk. Fuck those green people, right?
Nah bro what i really want from a Hulk series is a poorly written romantic comedy about a lawyer sho behaves like a teenager most of the time, with plot lines that would make more sense if she was actually a teenager (bad hair day OMG!) (Boys only like me for this part OMG) and not a post law school professional.
It is not that hulk is a female, it is more that it is a horribly written female, with plot lines that do not belong to the character or setting.
Why the fuck do we have bad hair day plot lines in a series about a super hero who just happens to be female?
It is almost like the writers didn't want to write a she hulk series...
Thor 2 was awesome. Are you sure you're not thinking of Thor 3, where it took genuine effort to waste the talents of Christian Bale, Natalie Portman AND Russel Crowe?
I started it when it came out and I stopped after 2 episodes. I recently picked it back up and the last 2 episodes are really good! I loved the ending! But the first 3-4 weren’t good lol
Not gonna lie, I have no clue who Ironheart is - and I'm assuming it's the Power Rangers villain of the week looking thing in the middle at the bottom. This is the first time I'm seeing it, and I think I saw all the major Marvel studios movies save for few (last Cap'n America and last Black Panther... and looking at wiki, Eternals, and Black Widow...).
Why would anyone watch it? 🤷🏻♂️ I love the idea that you have to watch something to know if it’s good. No, I assure you I don’t. I watched about 1 minute of the trailer and knew it wouldn’t be worth my time. If YOU have to watch more than that to know it was going to be straight up garbage, that’s on you.
She Hulk was good, it was just rushed. They should have hired a few ex-Law & Order writers and given us a few more 'lawyer Hulk defends a super' episodes to space things out a bit.
I wouldn't say it was out of character. Riri spent basically the entire series in the situations she was in because she was reckless and stubborn in achieving her goals. It's a consistent character flaw.
Yes, but the assumed reason for this is of characters being forced because of DEI. I don't know whether that's true or not. Though I'd imagine the best writers are going to turn down a DEI project. And execs are likely more involved making sure they don't get in trouble for a woman Hulk doing something feminine that makes her weak.
The fact the writers weren't half-assed to learn anything about law in order to write compelling episodes is hilarious. Like how bad at your job do you need to be to ignore things like this while also boasting about it
She-Hulk is a cheap procedural slice-of-life comedy. Every character has flaws or subversions that are played for laughs. She has a set-up in the first episode by mostly ignoring Bruce's advice about controlling her anger. The chekov's gun goes off and she loses her shit at the end of the season.
Iron Heart is a fiasco-like tragedy. She is brash, arrogant, and makes awful decisions. This is not a story about growth. She talks shit about Tony in the first episode, and is immediately proven to be just as bad or worse in many ways. Just as she could turn away from it all, she makes the worst possible decision.
Tbf, Disney doesn't need my or anyone else's defending. The shows aren't masterworks of genre-defining fiction. Not all art has to be. I think the writers did a fine job of making interesting, flawed characters and fun, watchable shows. Watch them locally or read the synopsis or smth.
I honestly tried giving the iron heart show a chance but looking back, there was no way people were gonna accept her as tony's successor.
Firstly, they tried introducing an iron man successor in a project that had nothing to do with Iron man.
Her first appearance was in wakanda forever, so there's already homework for anyone soley interested in anything "iron" related.
Then there's the show itself.
It's been a while since i watched it but I remember a few key details from episode one.
The show kicks off with her badmouthing tony, acting high and mighty because he "wouldnt have been where he was without money"
Now theres some validity to this claim, if you ignore the fact that tony's father helped win ww2 and formed shield before starting stark industies. Not exactly like the wealth was unearned.
Then you gotta consider the oh so famous line, "tony stark was able to build this in a cave. With a box of scraps."
Again. Tony likely wouldn't have been in that cave had he not been rich and famous.
But that doesnt take away from the fact that he built a miniature arc reactor and functioning suit of armor outnof scrap metal and various missile parts.
This wouldve already turned alot of people away from the character as is, but the thing that led a really bad taste in my mouth is the hypocrisy.
In the show (idk about the comics) she is building her own suit at MIT, slandering tony about his money, while making use of that same money from a grant that tony started back at the start of civil war.
I dont know what the wroters were thinking but trying to sell a successor to a fan favorite charcter isnt gonna work if you introduce said successor in a project that has nothing to do with the original, and then have said successor talk shit about said fan favorite charcter, hot on the heels of their death and sacrifice
On top of that, she ends up allying herself with Mephisto. They didn’t build a hero’s successor story, they made a successful Villain origin in which the main character allies herself with the devil, and they tried to present it as a hero story. If you wanted a hero’s successor story, you need someone who knows him well to pass the mantle(Ideally Tony would be best for it but he sacrificed himself so that isn’t possible). Rhodey, Pepper, Peter, someone who knows him and can teach her how to be the hero that can live up to and build on Tony’s legacy. They didn’t do that, and in fact did the opposite, they created a villain who spits in the face of everything Tony stands for
The show kicks off with her badmouthing tony, acting high and mighty because he "wouldnt have been where he was without money" Now theres some validity to this claim, if you ignore the fact that tony's father helped win ww2 and formed shield before starting stark industies. Not exactly like the wealth was unearned
What the fuck is even your point here?
Tony didn't make that money his father did, and Riri never claims it was unearned
The shit thing bout Ironheart for me was that the MCU was started by having us watch Tony's struggle to become Iron Man, decades of experience as a weapons engineer and billions of dollars got him to where he was.
Tony builds his MK3 suit weeks after returning home from being kidnapped by terrorists, and that's still leaps and bounds ahead of where Riri is after presumably years of trying to emulate Tony's suit.
I'm sure Tony's bleeding-edge 2008 infrastructure and the resources he had available to him (For the MK3, probably in the range of several millions of dollars of materials as well as access to stark industries' private research) give him a pretty strong headstart over Riri, but you think it's so much so that an engineering prodigy building a cheap imitation of something Tony Stark threw together in less than a month ruins Ironheart as a whole for you?
I don't see how that's relevant to a discussion about whether it's reasonable for Riri to have built her suit.
Also that's not the first thing she does with the suit, just the first thing she does on screen. Tony's first interaction with the US government is to accidentally down an F22.
I don't think she kills any police officers either. She downs a UAV in such a way that it crashes into a police barricade, and the police notice it a few seconds beforehand and clear the area, which is a reasonable thing to assume would probably occur. That's reckless, but then so is punching out a bunch of terrorists who are using civilians as humans shields, and gambling civilian lives on your entirely untested technology working perfectly the first time, which is the first thing Tony does with his MK3 suit.
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u/Big_bat_chunk2475 1d ago
Shit writing. Really shit writing in iron hearts case and She Hulk’s case