Capitalism: a system so great it needs to be bailed out every 10 years
Edit: for those of you who refuse to look anywhere outside the US, the Nordic model has existed for over 90 years and is extremely successful. The countries that use it consistently rank highest in happiness, quality of life, work life balance, has low rates of corruption, and are economically competitive
capitalism is when the corporations are by themselves private entities with a superable bureaucracy from the government. It's the difference between Amtrak and Union pacific.
Chinese corporations are government owned and managed. Nearly all are practically like Amtrak. In addition, privat property doens't exist.
Private property does exist - see Civil Code of the People's Republic of China. You can own a home, or an iPhone for example. Private businesses (Chinese owned like Temu or foreign owned like, say, Amazon China) also exist as well as the State Owned Enterprises that mostly cover key infrastructure. Its state capitalist, but it's capitalist.
Personal property: toothbrush, flatware, clothes, a PC, a home, a personal business like a cafe
Private property: utility providers, factories, farms, grocery stores, possibly even retail outlets selling personal property
See the difference?
China is strange; they have different "economic zones." Places like Hong Kong are a "capitalist zone," where foreign enterprises, like Amazon China, are allowed to incorporate and operate.
People have a hard time understanding what capital actually is. The biggest scam we've been sold is that our personal possessions are private property.
It's only land which cannot be privately owned in china. You can own a factory, so you can own a means of production and you can extract profit within a competitive market. Americans seem to have a peculiar view that if you don't own the land it's not private property. That view doesn't colour how the rest of the world operates!
Sooo... if Chinese government decides they want the land the factory you own is currently on, then what? Do you get to tell them to pound sand and figure somewhere else? Or do they simply take it, bulldoze your factory, and say "better luck next time?" If the government can annihilate your "means of production" without recourse any time it wants to, you don't "own" any private property. You operate at the pleasure of the government.
True enough. Eminent domain has been challenged often enough though that there would be recompense or recourse for the factory (and land) owner at that point. In fact, the Fifth Amendment requires that just compensation be provided in such instances. I doubt there is any in China.
What on earth has that got to do with capitalism/state capitalism? Do you think business all own their factories and offices? Do you think leasehold housing only exists in China? You get a legal agreement to use the land for the term of the lease.
Most businesses do own their factories if they produce something that is proprietary or of value. Most do not lease office space because plenty of others have built office buildings for lease and it makes more business sense to lease rather than buy. An office is an office, regardless of where it is located.
The point is that if you do not own the land, then you have to renew the lease and BOTH parties have to agree to the lease renewal. You could live somewhere for 20 years and suddenly the owner decide they don't want to lease to you anymore and you are SOL. The same thing can happen in other countries, sure, but in other countries there is an option to buy land so that you can avoid that possibility in the future. That is not the case in China. That's the problem the other poster is trying to convey. That's what makes it not capitalism. You have personal property, but not private property. That is a major component of capitalism, and it's absence means the economy is not capitalism, though it may adopt some ideas from it.
China is probably closest to state managed capitalism. The government chooses the battleground and the rules of engagement but then it a free for all from there. The US is currently suffering from being warped into a Capitalistic managed state where the businesses have controlled the government.
Arguably China has parts of it that are the most true form of capitalism on the planet. All systems have issues but right now China's is utilizing the best parts of capitalism better than almost anyone else.
China's state capitalism is still capitalism, and North Korea doesn't need to be sabotaged because it's already failing horribly (and no reasonable person would put forth North Korea's fucked up hyperauthoritarianism as a suggestion anyway).
You're gonna get hated on for suggesting that capitalism somehow isn't the great evil. At the end of the day, you're right -- it's always the powers that be exploiting a system, not the economic model itself.
That doesn't change the fact that some systems are more vulnerable to exploitation than others.
Any system that allows the concentration of power, be it capitalism, authoritarianism, or whatever, will end up in the situation we're dealing with now where those with the power will fuck everybody else over to hold on to it, regardless of how much suffering and death they cause.
Systems with flatter power curves are objectively better, the problem is implementing them in the shadow of the current wielders of power. This is why "eat the rich" is such a common sentiment, we can't move forward until we topple the power structures that are currently preventing us from having a chance to even try.
The only way to flatten the power curve is to constantly suppress any deviations. At what point in your ideal threshold does someone stop being a successful underdog and transitions to an oppressor?
The system is irrelevant. Even if the power curve is flatter, someone(s) are going to try to exploit that system -- in order to keep everyone on the same level, you have to actively take away resources from anyone that dips above the median while still allocating resources to underperforming entities.
That means an entity has to exist with the power to strip and provide responsibility and resources at will. Unless you're suggesting everybody starts tearing everybody down for having more.
Don't get me wrong, our society is getting more and more exploitative. It's a huge problem and it needs to be addressed. Just tearing down the infrastructure won't solve the problem as written.
There is a fucking galaxy of space between "dips above the median" and "three guys own 75% of the world".
This is the problem I have with trying to have this discussion. Everybody opposed to flattening power curves seems to think that there are two options: crush anyone who grows an inch above anybody else, or allow anybody to take everything for themselves regardless of who it hurts. This is a fucking child's understanding of politics, economics, and power structures. We can absolutely build a system where some people have more than others for a variety of reasons, but nobody goes without the necessities for survival and nobody is allowed to have so much that they can rule over everyone else.
I'm not saying it's going to be easy, but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.
Hold on. I'm talking about a theoretically flat society. There's a fundamental flaw in the system where some entity needs to exist to control excess, and that be definition creates an organization that inevitably has de facto power to control resources available to people to prevent excess. Right? Unless you have an alternative.
My problem with 'capitalism is evil' is that it's universally unhelpful. It's just one economic system among others alongside its respective government. Any time you have a grouping of people -- including a collection of workers aggregating the power of their production -- you inevitably create a gradient, and it is typically in the collective's best interest to increase that gradient and centralize wealth as much as possible.
But yes, the current umbrella or corporations and billionaires is insane. They have reached heights the robber barons couldn't have begun to imagine.
I wish I could remember the book or essay, but an author made an excellent point about how any organization almost inevitably corrupts to its lobbyists, because the centralization of interest is in the affected party and not the broader public.
How then would you model such a society? This isn't a rhetorical question. What is your suggestion for an ideal society where the economic model, government model, and social structure builds real equality? "Tear down capitalism" doesn't suggest an alternative, it's only destructive on its own.
I don't know. The problem is that we can't even get most people to admit there's a problem that needs fixing to begin with, which makes it impossible to have the chance to sit down and have a discussion about ways we can try to move forward. I don't have all the answers to fix society, but I know that if we don't start looking for some soon we're fucked. If we can't even get to the point where people understand why capitalism's aggressive consolidation of power inevitably leads to disaster then we're never even going to have the chance to find something better.
Personally I'm an anarchist at heart, but I'm also old and experienced enough to know that the vast majority of people probably aren't ready for that yet, if we ever will be. I still think it's the best way to structure things, but if it's ever gonna happen we're going to need to do a lot of work getting humanity to the point where empathy, compassion, and community are the default.
But until then, I know that moving in that direction will still make things better even if we can't ever make it all the way to utopia.
Personally I'm an anarchist at heart, but I'm also old and experienced enough to know that the vast majority of people probably aren't ready for that yet, if we ever will be. I still think it's the best way to structure things, but if it's ever gonna happen we're going to need to do a lot of work getting humanity to the point where empathy, compassion, and community are the default.
Anarchism will always be doomed to failure.
It's inherent flaw is, much like communism, it ignores basic human nature. No amount of empathy or compassion will override the fact that humans are animals.
On a side note
I still think it's the best way to structure things
Is anarchy not defined by it's lack of centralized structure? What sort of structure are you imagining for your hypothetical anarchic society?
Greed and cruelty are not "basic human nature", they are things that have been drilled into us in various ways over centuries.
Reversing the damage caused by these things isn't going to be easy and it's going to take a long time, but to think that we could never possibly move past such things is defeatist and pointless. If you truly believe that this is "basic human nature", that we can never be better than our worst qualities, why bother ever trying to make anything better? Why not just burn it all down and let humanity die out?
Nah, fuck that. We can be better... and eventually we will be.
Is anarchy not defined by it's lack of centralized structure?
Anarchism literally just means "no rulers", just like "monarchy" means "rule by one". There are many ways to structure an anarchist society, but the primary concept isn't that there is no structure, or even that there is no centralized structure, just that nobody is arbitrarily making rules that everybody else has to follow. Anarchism is basically the purest form of democracy, the only real requirement is that everybody gets to have a say in how things are run.
What sort of structure are you imagining for your hypothetical anarchic society?
A voluntary one. Just as a quick example, on a large project the people might decide (generally by vote, though a more informal consensus can be reached during discussion) that Bob is the most knowledgeable person on this subject, so for this project everybody agrees to follow Bob's lead. The important part is that nobody is deciding they get to make the rules for everyone else, everyone is agreeing that this person's expertise is worth relying on. And if Bob starts fucking up they can just vote him out again.
Personally I'm an anarchist at heart, but I'm also old and experienced enough to know that the vast majority of people probably aren't ready for that yet
See, that's kind of the thing. For an anarchist structure to persist and succeed, it needs buy-in from every member of that society. Otherwise, the exact same gradient and organization I described starts taking place in the form of gangs and local warlords. If you have anarchists grouping together, organizing, to prevent that.... you cease to have anarchy and then have government again.
Unless I'm mistaken in your philosophy here. I welcome additional insight, because I've met a handful of anarchists and it's been pretty rare for these anecdotal experiences to really paint a cohesive picture beyond 'government and economy bad'.
Anarchy is just as doomed to fail as capitalism is doomed to concentration of excess. The real solution is installing democracy, ranked choice voting, and ensuring that military power doesn't fall into the catechisms of the privately wealthy and the exclusion of wealth-based lobbying.
Anarchism doesn't mean "no rules", it means "no rulers". It also doesn't mean "no government", it just means that any sort of government would have to consist of the people it governs, and would also be primarily administerial in nature. There can even be hierarchical positions so long as those positions are voted on by the people they'd be administrating over, and subject to removal should they fail to fulfill their duties. It's entirely possible for anarchists to say "Bob knows this subject best, so we all agree that Bob can manage the day-to-day operations of this subject and we'll just check in with him now and then."
There are some nominal anarchists who believe that any form of organization or governance or even rules are unacceptable, but middle schoolers don't really have much political pull so they're not really a concern.
There's a reason I said humanity isn't ready for anarchist society, and might never be. My entire point was that even if we never get there, moving in that direction is a good thing. Flattening power structures in any amount will be a net benefit for everyone, even if we can never make them perfectly flat.
The real solution is installing democracy, ranked choice voting, and ensuring that military power doesn't fall into the catechisms of the privately wealthy and the exclusion of wealth-based lobbying.
And you will be incapable of doing this under a system that allows the rampant accumulation of power.
Hell, even in flatter power structures you can't completely prevent the accumulation of power, but with systems designed to inhibit that accumulation you have time to react to it when it starts to happen, and the damage done by people who manage to get more than they should have is lower than in a system that actively encourages people to vacuum up as much wealth and power as humanly possible.
It's like the whole gun control debate, where people say "If you get rid of guns people will just use knives!" while completely ignoring the fact that a gun makes it easier by a fucking mile to do great amounts of harm to many people in a short period of time. We can never create a perfect world, but we can recognize that some systems are more prone to corruption than others and proceed accordingly.
they do exist under complete hostility from the global hegemony. the us busts in it sleep over the idea of over throwing them to get at those sweet sweet resources
There is a lot of right wing propaganda to convince Americans the Chinese can’t be trusted and wants to fight. This is bogus. But, the Chinese do steal corporate tech and methods from any and all who try to do business in China and they see it as their birthright. So there is Chinese anti-western sentiment for sure. We also sell more to China than to anyone else, food, tech, finished goods, etc. It’s a two-way street and China is more of a friend and partner than a country like North Korea or Russia but many Americans think Russia could one day be our friend and that’s naive and imbecilic.
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u/Own_Policy8854 9h ago
We could redistribute wealth to prevent it from pooling and creating economic disasters in the first place.