Ok but after covid, prices skyrocketed compared to pre-covid levels and we got massive inflation. Wages didn't suddenly skyrocket at the same time, hiring rates didn't go through the roof, corporate profits did though. So why would prices suddenly returning to pre-covid levels require everyone to be fired and customers to disappear when the economy was working great before? Would it just be that companies would start mass layoffs to prevent a short term decline in quarter on quarter profits which would start a negative feedback loop?
Because of how corps react to lower prices. They would just lay everyone off. Deflation itself isn't the issue, it's how little protections actual working people have and how much incentive corps have to keep their stock price high. Being able to sell something for less means less profit for the corps which is a big problem for corp leadership. So the solution is to temporally increase profits by getting rid of staff.
Ahh ok so basically it all just comes down to corporate greed determining how much we should all suffer and be punished for even considering the idea that their stock price doesn't have to keep going up every 3 months and that they might be able to survive on 5% less profit this year compared to last year. Got it.
Keep in mind this is just the tip of the iceberg. Corporations actively lobby for these policies that ensure they get protections and bailouts while workers and citizens foot the bill and they largely get passed as a result of things like Citizen United, and that these lobbies also own and operate the media, which makes them the Kingmakers of your elected officials.
In history classes, we typically call this form of Oligopoly “Feudalism”, not Democracy.
The rich have gotten so rich they have essentially taken over the most important parts of government, and they’re using that power to funnel your tax money AND spending money directly to themselves.
If you sit around and complain, nothing happens. That's just nature, the strong ones get to live.
Nobody is stopping anyone from joining the corps or open a business. Unfortunately, those without talent or unlucky have to live at subsistence level. Communism doesn't work.
I mean sure, nobody is stopping anybody from opening a business or joining the corps, but we can’t all do that, if we all did society wouldn’t function. So isn’t the model in and of itself flawed? Sounds to me like Corps just need to give back to society more, whether that’s directly sending funds, or helping restructure things for the better for the “commoners” if you will.
I feel like people don't realize when a corp posts their profit, that number is after it's already paid all its employees, built new warehouses, etc.. They're kinda just removing that money from the economy and sitting on it.
"The strong ones get to live get to live" isn't an argument for capitalism; it’s social Darwinism.
"Anyone can start a business" doesn’t answer the criticism that concentrated wealth can buy political influence and shape the rules in its own favor. Jumping from "oligarchic capture is bad" to "communism doesn't work" is such a spectacular non sequitur that it practically proves the point about ideological conditioning.
Yup. Though in a very real sense it is less corporate greed and more individual greed. I don’t think any of these cunts need the unreasonable amount of wealth they have accumulated: https://www.forbes.com/billionaires/
I’d say it’s more the focus on short term results and the knee jerk reactions than boiling it down to just greed. Corporations are going to be “greedy” by default, but the current incentive structure is so focused on immediate term profitability they take actions that are with little thought to the long term health of the company or economy at large.
To me, a lot of it is upper management trying to save themselves. Their job is to make profit/stock price go up, and if that doesn’t happen, their job is on the line. So a quick way to make more money is to cut the most expendable expense which is labor, even if it’s a bad idea in the long run. These guys don’t think about the long run, by the way, it’s 5-year plans at best.
You're right, but the problem arises when even corporates are the similar engine that if their revenue drops, they cease and another takes over.
It's the playing in debt system. Everyone is borrowing money from the future to use now, and when the inflation drops, everything follows the same rate. It all started when FIAT currency was introduced, or maybe it was introduced because they already put the debt system in place and gold standard couldn't handle the amount of debt w/o breaking away from it. Who knows?
But isn't the reason people aren't buying as many things due to the high prices? If prices go down and people have more money to spend don't they naturally just end up buying more things like when the government provides stimulus cheques? I used to buy heaps of random treats for myself when it was affordable, new shoes all the time, new suits for work each summer/winter, random shit I saw on Amazon I liked, stuff for my hobbies etc. Now shit is so expensive I'm wearing my old suits until they literally tear and become unwearable, I haven't bought any new sneakers in at least 2 years, I only make essential purchases on Amazon and my hobbies have sat dormant because I just can't justify spending the money because rent, bills and groceries are eating 90% of my paycheck. If prices went back down to 2019 levels overnight I'd start buying more shit almost immediately. So I'm just confused how higher prices are better for the economy than lower prices.
So I'm just confused how higher prices are better for the economy than lower prices.
It helps to remember that "the economy" as the media defines it means "rich people's money." Not our money. As long as the stock market is going up, "the economy" is good. It doesn't matter if the rest of us are living in poverty, especially now that the stock market has fully decoupled from actual company performance. Tesla could shut down all its factories and never sell another car again, and the stock price would only drop like 5% before turning around and going back up again.
If prices went back down to 2019 levels overnight I'd start buying more shit almost immediately.
If a 40% (!!!) deflation happened?! No, you wouldn't, because you'd have no money because you'd have no job. Oh and also enjoy your student debt/mortgage being almost doubled! That would be a crisis far beyond the Great Depression, probably the collapse of the Western world.
The whole point of my comment was not "I don't think people would lose their jobs" but more "why would people have to lose their jobs" when a massive price drop would promote a huge amount of spending and economic activity when right now people are very limited in what they can afford outside of essentials. It's asking why did the economy work perfectly before covid at 40% lower prices and why would the economy basically explode and self destruct if prices went back to those levels and companies just made a bit less profit. If a company had 1000 staff in 2019 and was profitable and making good money, now they still have 1000 staff and are making way better money without any significant increase in labor spending as we all know wages haven't been going up, why would they need to suddenly fire half their staff if they had to go back to only making "good" money and not "great" money if firing all their staff just turns into a negative feedback loop if all the companies do it and now no one can buy anything. Isn't it better for companies to not just look towards the next earnings calls and accept a loss in profits while still making millions rather than do some knee jerk layoffs that may save their profit margins in the very short term but tank the economy and their business in the medium-long term?
Because in order for companies to make "good money", employee wages would also have to go down to pre-COVID levels. And - despite what grifters may say, wages have been rising faster than prices - real wages (aka wages with inflation counted in) have increased since 2019.
If we stay away from magical thinking where a 40% deflation happens tomorrow and take into account that it would happen over years, then the reason you wouldn't buy things is because tomorrow they will be cheaper and the next day cheaper still. While your debts rise at giant speeds and the economy tanks.
Ahh ok so basically it all just comes down to corporate greed determining how much we should all suffer and be punished
Yes. That's also what inflation is. With a fiat currency, the amount of little paper slips in the world shouldn't make them any less valuable, since they're worthless to begin with except for the faith we have in them.
If the mint had a top-secret extra basement with a 1000 off-the-books printing machines going 24/7, and none of the corpos knew about it, prices wouldn't budge even 1%. As soon as some CEO found out, though, prices would jump even if that money was just sitting in a pile without going anywhere.
since they're worthless to begin with except for the faith we have in them.
That doesn't change the mechanics of supply and demand.
As soon as some CEO found out, though, prices would jump even if that money was just sitting in a pile without going anywhere.
If I, a non-CEO, found out the government was, by all appearances, getting ready to blow the money supply wide open I'd expect big changes in prices too.
My point is, it's not a law of the universe. It requires specifically rich people to know about it before any effects happen at all. It's literally Schroedinger's Inflation. Until someone with power observes the state of the money supply, nothing at all changes.
I still don't have any more money than I did before I saw the hidden money pile, dipshit. Only rich people can just start buying willy-nilly on a tip, which is my fuckin' point.
Well, never thought my calling for an end to unregulated capitalism would be misread as excusing unregulated capitalism. This is why I don't like the term "corporate greed" because it inherently separates our failed economic system of capitalism from the behavior that in encourages.
Like it or not, currently big business is legally obligated to their shareholders to generate as much profit as possible. I do not believe greed is moral, but recognize that it is not a moral choice when the law forces a decision on a person or entity. I don't want my taxes to fund the war in Iran, but they do - I do not think that is my moral failing. It is, however, my country's failure to understand the issues, be engaged in civic society, and approach issues with nuance and subtlety.
To be clear, I am on your side and think we should tax billionaires and corporations. I just think the blame / target should be the system that allows or encourages this type of behavior, more than the people who do what is expected and instructed of them. (Of course this is not hard and fast either, lobbyists definitely push for favorable regulation for profit. Again a product of unregulated capitalism)
I get you man. Youre speaking more to the failure of the system. I got you. Sounds like we're on the same side from diff angles and I'm ok with that completely. 💪💪
i think you find relatively few serious people who advocate for the second thing you say over the first.
the propaganda that works against the interests of the working class are the ones pushing that "the Left" want the latter instead of the former, and that lie is what pushes the most economically vulnerable to vote against their own interests when it comes to electing a government that will operate in the best interest of the citizenry, instead of the ones at the top profiting off of the system.
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u/leconteur 6h ago
If you get to keep your job or customers.