r/RPGdesign • u/Tharkun140 • 1d ago
Mechanics Three kinds of fear
In my system, willpower is determined by three separate stats; Intelligence, Charisma and Toughness. I want each of these attributes to serve as a "saving throw" for a different kind of fear, induced by a different kind of creature.
The problem? I'm not sure how to divide sources of fear between these three characteristics. I was thinking of dividing enemies into Bullies (Toughness), Monsters (Intelligence) and Horrors (Charisma) but it doesn't quite sit right with me. Is there a more elegant way to do this, or should I give up on the idea altogether?
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u/marintkael 1d ago
The reason it does not sit right is probably that you are sorting by cause while the stat has to sort by response. Bullies, Monsters and Horrors is a taxonomy of who is in the room. A save is a question about what happens inside the character, and one creature can easily produce two of those at once.
Try cutting it by what the fear makes a person do. Toughness against fear that says run, where the body wants out and the check is whether you hold position. Intelligence against fear that says freeze, where nothing in front of you parses and the check is whether you can still act on an incomplete model. Charisma against fear that says submit, where you accept the other thing's claim to stand above you, which covers intimidation and awe and also the ghoul that is simply certain it owns the corridor.
The advantage is you never have to partition the bestiary. The same creature can call for a different save depending on what it is doing in that scene, and your three hundred pages survive.
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u/Gaeel 1d ago
Does it have to be charisma?
In one of my games, the non-magic stats are Poise, Brawn, and Grind. Poise is anything to do with intelligence and charisma. Brawn is everything that has to do with having a healthy body, strength, agility. Grind is self-control, determination, courage.
If your charisma stat is something closer to my grind stat, then it might make sense in your framework.
Toughness gives you confidence in the face of something you can punch. Intelligence gives you confidence in the face of something you can outsmart. And charisma/courage/grind gives you courage when confronted with things that prey on your sense of self and connection to reality.
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u/Tharkun140 1d ago
I might use Charisma that way, I guess, but I want all stats to have some use against enemies, so Toughness defense needs a far narrower definition.
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u/Gaeel 1d ago
The way I'd frame it is that there are different ways for an enemy to hurt you.
Some are just plain strong, they hit hard, and there's nothing much you can do about it, if you're tough, you'll survive.
Others are sneaky and go for your weak points or holes in your defense, if you're smart, you can predict their attacks, otherwise you're getting stabbed.
And then there are those that growl at you, lunge at you, spit at you, all to destabilise you and cause you to panic and make mistakes, but if you're courageous you can stand your ground.1
u/Sapient-ASD Designer - As Stars Decay 1d ago
Out of curiosity why did you choose the word poise? Intelligence and charisma are very mental and although you may mean it as a sort of mental balance or Fortitude, poise tends to have a very physical connotation and denotation.
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u/Gaeel 1d ago
The game is on pause, so I've not really tweaked it since the first play sessions. The original idea I had in mind was a wise wizard sort of character has poise. Their confidence stems from the fact that they know more than other people and can manipulate or seduce them. The word "poise" as in "calm composure" came to mind.
But you're right, that word probably falls under what I'm calling "grind" in this game, and I should pick a better word that fits what I actually mean.1
u/Sapient-ASD Designer - As Stars Decay 1d ago
Appreciate the reply! I hope you'll pick it up again. And although poise tends to lean physical, you can reinforce its mental aspects. Especially around a wizard. A wizards poise would be different than a knights, so i get it. I think there may be better wording, for me personally, but my opinion doesnt make your choices wrong or bad at all! Have a great day!
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u/Gaeel 1d ago
There aren't any wizards in this game, at least not in the classical sense. When I said "wizard" here, I meant in the behavioural trope sense, so that could be someone like Gandalf, Obi-Wan Kenobi, or Walter White.
The meaning of the stats shifted around though, and I hadn't really considered that the shifted gameplay role was now unaligned with the vocabulary.
My games are constantly in flux until they've been thoroughly played, re-evaluating the vocabulary was going to happen eventually, so thanks for pointing it out, I've made a note in the design docs.
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u/Sapient-ASD Designer - As Stars Decay 1d ago
No problem happy to help! The taxonomy of my system was a very fun puzzle i struggled with for 6 or 7 years and I'm finally 99% satisfied with it.
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u/TheRpgBard 1d ago
I think you need to establish the true sources of fear. I would consider them rational, primal, and irrational.
From there, I would assign an attribute to counter those. Intelligence for Irrational, Spirit for Primal, and Wisdom for Rational.
Once you categorize them, you have a way to determine how to fight them.
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u/DeadlyDeadpan 1d ago
It doesn't have to be three different types of fear, Toughness can be physical resistance like to illness, poisons and even magical effects altering your body agaisnt your will. You could check Masks emotional Conditions to get some inspiration I think, but intelligence could be to keep composure to enemies taunting you into anger, mind control and charisma could be the resistance to fear and possession, for example.
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u/Drudenfusz Curator of Roleplay Experiences 1d ago
May I suggest renaming toughness into resilience? Then sure, that could be used against intimidation.
Monsters and horrors probably should be the same, but I don't think intelligence would be useful against that. Maybe bravery or courage instead?
Charisma, or better framed as composure for a defensive trait, would probably be best against anxiety or embarrassment.
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u/Tharkun140 1d ago
May I suggest renaming toughness into resilience? Then sure, that could be used against intimidation.
I've already written three hundred pages of the corebook, so changing the basic stats is kinda out of the question. They are referenced countless times, and have many uses beyond fear defense. Even changing the names into synonyms would require a lot of editing.
Monsters and horrors probably should be the same, but I don't think intelligence would be useful against that. Maybe bravery or courage instead?
When I write "horror" I mean a cosmic horror, Lovecraft style, something alien and disturbing on a metaphysical level. That's quite distinct from monsters that just want to bite your head off.
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u/Gaeel 1d ago
If you've written 300 pages and things have solidified before you've figured out some basic things like how characters resist fear, I'm afraid you might have painted yourself into a corner.
TTRPGs are games, they need to be played. You can't design a game (and certainly not a 300-pager) in a vacuum.I recommend paring down what you have, and running a session or two. See what works, what doesn't. See what the players mesh with and what they rub up against. See what rules are over-engineered or lacking substance.
And prepare yourself to throw out a good chunk of what you have. If it's never been played, you have no idea how it'll play.1
u/Tharkun140 1d ago
I've done four test sessions thus far. Fear resistance didn't really come up, because it's not a "basic thing" in the way character generation and action economy are, and because the original rules made it hard to remember when a fear check was supposed to be made. Hence the new system.
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u/SardScroll Dabbler 1d ago
Find & Replace are your friends, in editing, I find.
Also, how much do "bullies"(humans/possibly humanoids, presumably), "monsters"(aliens, presumably), and "horrors"(cosmic, presumably?) come up in your space faring game?
How much do these stats get used outside of this? Is there are a reason you wish to use three separate stats for fear checks?
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u/Tharkun140 1d ago
Also, how much do "bullies"(humans/possibly humanoids, presumably), "monsters"(aliens, presumably), and "horrors"(cosmic, presumably?) come up in your space faring game?
My bestiary has all three, and in roughly similar numbers. How much they actually appear depends on the campaign.
How much do these stats get used outside of this?
Quite a lot. I'm working in a d100 paradigm, where difficulty is determined by both the skill and its corresponding attribute, so every attribute has multiple uses.
Is there are a reason you wish to use three separate stats for fear checks?
I fear (heh) that picking one stat and using it for fear tests would make it the most important thing in the game. I also want to give players a reason to raise their mental attributes, even though they don't make anyone better at casting spells. I originally added these three attributes together to form a "Will" stat and used that for fear, but it was kind of clumsy and could lead to death spirals when combined with other mechanics.
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u/outbacksam34 1d ago
What’s the rest of your game about?
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u/Tharkun140 1d ago
About traversing the Solar System in ramshackle spaceships while getting constantly shot at.
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u/Defilia_Drakedasker Muppet 1d ago
I'd pair intelligence with horror; rationalise it away.
Charisma could go with monsters, at least if connected to a sense of grace. But could also work with bullies, giving the character a sense of authority or sway over them.
Perhaps the saves shouldn't be tied to the type of creature but to the situation, how the characters currently relate to the creature?
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u/RPG-Nerd 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'll tell you how I do it, but it's not attribute based. It's skill based. It's also not just fear, but handles just about any emotion. Since it's emotional, all skills are based on Aura (similar to Charisma), but skills are not bonuses to attribute checks. Skills have their own training and XP and the XP starts at the attribute score, but skills advance independently of each other. Skill advancement raises the attribute, not the other way around. So, you are spreading things between different attributes fot game balance reasons, and I solved that in the core. You don't want to spread these out because you risk making stereotypes, which you basically have. Your physical strength doesn't mean you aren't afraid. The strong guy that feels fear is a much more interesting character than your enforced stereotypes. These are the characters people keep playing beyond session 7!
You have 4 emotional axises, each can be wounded or armored. Each has a saving throw which is a skill check. Skill checks are training + experience. Rolls are based on training (1 die is untrained, 2d6 for journeyman, 3d6 for master, 4 dice is supernatural, 5 is deific). The bonus to the roll is based on experience. If it's not all 1s (crit fail = 0) then add your skill level. Level is based on the experience in the skill. At the end of every scene, add 1 XP to any skill you rolled.
Emotions
Fear of bodily harm and death vs safety and security. Save: Basic Combat Training
Despair and helplessness vs Hope. Save: Faith
Isolation and loneliness vs Community and Inclusion. Save: Culture/Influence
Guilt and Shame vs Affirmation and Sense of Self. Save: Culture/Integrity
The first is the save you make against typical fear effects and is also your save against pain and hesitation when you take damage. Wounds force you to a roll a save against the severity and you lose a small amount of time based on how badly you fail (GM marks off a couple of boxes).
Each wound is a disadvantage die to further checks of that same skill. So, that huge monster might have you roll a save against fear (vs creature horror rating) and failures will cause fear wounds, and these fear wounds cause hesitation as well as penalties on future saves. The fear causes you to hesitate longer each time you are wounded, and it affects your initiative rolls.
Combat isn't done in a fixed order. Whoever has used the least time goes next, with initiative rolls being done to resolve ties of time - declare action before rolling.
A creature with a "supernatural" appearance (4 in the box) switches the typical horror aura from physical fear to despair. Vampires and werewolves are things beyond our understanding. Not even death will save you from the consequences. They make you feel helpless, and where do you turn? Faith! For dieties (appearance 5), they make us feel unworthy and the save is sense of self.
So, those hired mercenaries that are heavily combat trained, experienced, huge morale ratings - that is all combat training. If they see a werewolf, they roll Faith and probably run! But, the priest stands his ground (extra D6 on his roll), emboldened by the power of his faith!
The last two are both culture checks, but cultures are broken into 3 branches: Identity, Influence, and Integrity. Ever had to decide if you should follow your friends and do something stupid, or say "sorry, that's not right"? Going with the flow makes you part of the accepted social group and earns passions from the "Influence" branch to get special favors, etc. These passions count against isolation saves. You are one of "us".
If you take the second approach, you are the kind of person that is taking the Integrity branch - honor and leadership and respect. These passions count towards rolls against shame and guilt.
If you don't make the choice, then you're putting yourself in the background, and taking cultural "identity" passions. You can mix branches.
If an NPC had more emotional wounds on an axis than their intimacy level for opposition, then they leave. For example, if you are fighting to rob someone for money, money is typically an "outer" intimacy which is a 1 die advantage or disadvantage when the intimacy applies. If you get more than 1 wound to any emotional axis or physical wound track (counts major+), the fight ain't worth the risk anymore!
Now, if you're fighting for an "inner" intimacy, that means you need more than 2 wounds (any track) before you quit. A defining intimacy is 4 dice. You only have 4 wound boxes. You can't have more, so you fight to the death! Or argue forever - you will not be convinced otherwise on a 4 dice intimacy. However, when faced with death, some people change intimacies!
Say you are pumping gas and some guy comes up asking for money and going on and on about his kids and how great they are and how disappointed they will be if he doesn't get home, but he needs gas. Why is he talking about his kids?
We'll, this is a guilt tactic with a "child welfare" intimacy because it's an easy target. If you list this is as a 2 dice intimacy, then the attacker gets 2 advantage dice on his attack roll (Deception includes persuasion, acting, lying - how emotionally manipulative are you?). The target save is not "do I believe them?" That is up to you. Your character is not a polygraph. You roll culture against the guilt (your ability to notice tells in body language and speech patterns coupled with your integrity and sense of self). Injuries to your sense of self are disadvantages, armors are advantages.
A failed save determines the severity of the new wound and how long it lasts. This wound may penalize initiative - can't focus, self doubt, etc. If you want the penalty to go away right now, give him enough money for gas. The system does not tell you or the NPC how you react. It tells you the penalties and gives options. It also means you have some basic social tactics - find the weakest emotional axis and slam it with an intimacy they really believe in. Go for maximum emotional impact. Even bad-cop, good-cop works!
You could also choose to defend yourself by getting angry - sort of a "raise shields" tactic. Careful though since adrenaline levels like this will cause emotional wounds and armors to conflict. Basically instead of emotional wounds and emotional armors cancelling you back to zero, you roll them all. It's a special mechanic that causes an inverse bell curve. The more wounds and armors you have, the more dice stack up, and the wider the inverse bell curve. This scoops out the middle values and gives you really high results and really low results. Emotional instability under pressure!
If a person is listed as an intimacy by name, then they bypass a number of emotional armors (the barriers we put up to prevent people from getting too close and hurting us) equal to the intimacy level (1, 2, or 4). The people closest to us are the ones that can hurt us the worst. They can also stabilize us better because they bypass the negative wounds that cause the swing.
Loving your leaders can give you extra bonuses. For example, if the leader gives a speech against fear, your intimacy level makes that new save stronger. Great for party dynamics. The loss of someone named like that causes penalties to the guilt save if they die and you no longer earn light if you risk your life to save them - it's an obligation to avoid the save penalty, not a heroic act - you are doing it to avoid loss. Try to avoid bumping your intimacy to "defining" - which is your "I will die for you" level with creepy cult vibes. Great to describe your kids, not your leaders!
I haven't gotten to dispositions, the power of the shadow (lashing out and turning your wounds and hate into advantages), adrenaline boosts, light, etc, but I think you get the basics. It started out as an attempt to morph the emotional system from Unknown Armies to my advantage/disadvantage D6 system. It ended up basically a complete rewrite with a lot of new stuff as I applied the concepts to what I had. I think it turned out well, but it's not gotten any real testing yet.
Anyway - maybe that gives you some ideas that will help.
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u/Steenan Dabbler 1d ago
There is social fear. Fear of shame, embarrassment, rejection. It makes sense to defend from it with Charisma - one is in control of their image and how they present themselves in interactions with others instead of letting external opinions dictate it.
There is a physical fear. Fear of things that can hurt you and situations that are risky. You defend with Intelligence - rational risk evaluation that lets you decide what is actually too dangerous and what you can handle.
Lastly, there is fear not of things that may happen, but of things you know will happen. You need a surgery to stop the infection - and it will hurt. You want to reject an offer because it goes against your values - and you know it will leave you poor and struggling. You will die at some point and there is no running away from it. You don't defend from this kind of fear by realizing it's not real, because it is. What you do is weather it and move forward anyway - and that's what Toughness allows you to do.