Not taking notes?

[u/Loud-Inevitable5338]

I teach 8th grade biology ( first year at this school) I have a kid (8th grade) that explicitly said he doesn’t take notes for any classes!

I have my lecture and he is as disinterested as can be. How can I accommodate him to still make sure he is included and learn the content. As predicted when given work he’s lost.

Update: OMG the replies have been so helpful. So a little more backstory. No, he does not have an IEP or 504. I DONT REQUIRE NOTE TAKING. I understand all children learn differently ( as I always include visuals in my lectures) and I only do Instruction for about 20-30 minutes in a 90 minute block, and I show them what to actually write in their books. The issue is where there is no note taking, no interest and confused when work is given whether a worksheet or project. I called home this week and explained the situation to build that connection. I’ll monitor and test to see if his “theory” will work out.

[u/jlambert1422]

He doesn’t prepare for work and is lost when work is given to him? Wild. I’m a fan of natural consequences. If he doesn’t want to take them, great. Enjoy the zeroes. As a first year you want to help all students. 8th grade is the perfect time to help the student understand personal responsibility and consequences for their actions

[u/Birdybird9900 → u/jlambert1422]

I 2nd this.

[u/schlarmander → u/Birdybird9900]

I third it. But document it and let the parents know his choice.

[u/PrintedMills → u/jlambert1422]

Let them fail, and if your grading platform allows comments, state that they disobeyed the instruction to take notes. My school uses Genesis SIS and it allows me to select “viewable to parents and administrators” on each comment. It’s been enough CYA for me, and I do it when I’m inputting grades, so it doesn’t add any extra time, since time is the most valuable resource for me.

[u/FiddleKat12 → u/PrintedMills]

always leave comments with grading. can not recommend what above person said enough.

[u/More_Branch_5579 → u/jlambert1422]

I agree with this.

[u/prag513 → u/jlambert1422]

I think you may be reading him all wrong. First off, he doesn't see it as his responsibility. And, like most MAGA, he ignores the unintended consequences of his own actions.  

Do you know for a fact that he can take notes? Can he write? Does he have the cognitive ability to take notes? Or, is he one of those kids who takes it all in orally?

His disinterested look does not mean he isn't taking it all in. In your upcoming lecture, ask him his opinion of what you just discussed. Do it several times. Making him participate in the lecture will do two things: 1) expose whether or not he is listening, and 2) make him feel important or embarrass him in front of everyone to make him want to pay attention

Forcing him to do it won't work; he has to want to participate on his own, and welcoming him to express an opinion, no matter how bad it becomes, is a start in the right direction.

BTW, I am not a school teacher. As a marketing communications manager, I faced similar adults in dealer training sessions who felt they didn't need the training.

[u/jlambert1422 → u/prag513]

As a science teacher, respectfully, stay in your lane. Spend a few years teaching students and then you can share an opinion about how to manage a classroom.

[u/PrintedMills → u/prag513]

Respectfully, what does MAGA have to do with this? Your attempt to make this political is just plain stupid. Any respected teacher should be able to separate their work from their political beliefs. Political opinion has no place in the science classroom. And before you assume that I am pro-MAGA, think again, as my political beliefs, whichever way they might lean, have nothing to do with this thread, or my classroom.

Like the other person that replied, stay in your lane. Based on your reply, you are probably one of those people that doesn’t pay attention on the road and can’t stay in their own lane…

[u/prag513 → u/PrintedMills]

I was not making it a political issue. However, the MAGA atitude fit an example of avoiding responsibility; that I was trying to communicate about the student's attitude, not the teacher's attitude. As I quote....

"like most MAGA, he [the student] ignores the unintended consequences of his own actions."  

Where is there a reference to a teacher in that statement? And I did not refer to you, or any teacher, in regard to their political beliefs. So get your facts straight. And you are challenging a former politician who supported education with millions of dollars in capital appropriation as chairman of the Education Committee of the Common Council. Did you, as a teacher, ever have meetings with both the Superintendent of Schools and members of the Board of Education on a monthly basis in a non-public setting? Well, I did, and we achieved great things for education.

As for being in my lane, I am in my own lane, just not the one you prefer. In your lifetime, you educated a few thousand kids, while my educational website, MyReadingMapped educated over 750,000 worldwide in its first 4 years of it's 15 year lifespan.

Plus, I was one of those kids your classroom failed. So, I earned the right to tell you how to reach us troubled kids. With all your degrees and billions of dollars spent trying to reach us troubled kids, you still have kids like me who blossomed after we left school.

While politics should have no place in the science classroom, tell that to all the parents who show up at school board and Common Council public meetings demanding an end to teaching evolution, demanding an end to teaching climate change, and demanding an end to vaccinations in schools. You can't possibly get politics out of the science classroom with all the indoctrination going on at home.

[u/PrintedMills → u/prag513]

Spoken like a true politician that is far removed from what actually occurs. Sitting behind a desk and microphone making decisions without the experience of what real student/teacher interaction is like. 12 years as a principal attending closed door meetings with the Board of Education, 3 years working as head of my state’s department of science curriculum and instruction, and then chose to go back to the classroom. People like you are the exact reason why I chose to go back to the classroom. If you have kids, I feel bad for them.

[u/prag513 → u/PrintedMills]

Instead of attacking me personally, which I have not done to you, why don't you prove me wrong? Prove you have the expertise to solve troubled kids like the OP has and those like me.

No matter how much experience you have, we will always have troubled kids like me because life for them leaves them with little hope when there is no one to love and care for them. No one to guide them. They then lose all respect for authority and teachers like you. Their life is going to be miserable whether they get good grades or not, so why bother? Once that kid walks out that school door, each day he or she is on their own to survive. It's not a matter of what their future is like, when what happens overnight matters more.

For example, one February night, when I was only 13, I hand-washed my jeans in the bathroom sink and hung them out to dry on the clothesline. The next morning they were stiff as a board. I tried to heat them up by ironing them, but I still ended up wearing my only pants, which were still damp. When I got to school, all the kids made fun of me because my jeans were still stiff and I was freezing wearing them. When I was in fourth grade, I went to school in a blizzard because going to school that day was safer than staying home. Luckily, the school janitor was there to let me in. When I was 15, I poured my father's beer down the sink at 8 AM because he was already drunk. He hit me in the head with a pipe, and I had to fight for my survival. When the police showed up, they tried to arrest me, the victim of his drinking. So why would I trust you with the attitude you have?

[u/therealzacchai → u/prag513]

What does MAGA have to do with some 8th grader?

[u/Superb_Post6815]

Don't accommodate him. It would be one thing if he was one of the rare students who don't need to take notes, remembers it all, and can prove it on the tests/ final, so he doesn't need to take notes. But, he doesn't know the material bc he wasn't paying attention. Email/ call home now, let parents know he is not taking notes and the lack of notes is hurting his daily performance in class.

Unless he has an IEP or a 504. Then maybe use fill in the blank notes he can fill in.

[u/watermelonlollies → u/Superb_Post6815]

Absolutely this. Former 8th grade teacher and I fought notes with a lot of kids because up until that point they’ve been handheld and accommodated. Let parents know what he said then if he continues to not take notes that’s between him and his parents. You can’t care more than the students and any attempt otherwise will just be burnout for you and weaponizing incompetence for them.

As I always say, you can lead a horse to water and even shove its head in, but if it chooses to drown instead of drink that’s not your fault.

[u/Sorry-Vanilla2354 → u/Superb_Post6815]

100% this. All day and every day.

[u/PrintedMills → u/Superb_Post6815]

Agreed.

I’ve been fortunate to have quite of few of the kids that don’t need to take notes. It’s bugs me quite a bit, but I care about their growth of knowledge, so if they can learn the material and prove it on graded assignments, and routinely score near the top of the class, why should we make their lives more difficult? The whole point of graded assignments is to check their understanding of a concept. The need to provide evidence of that with the graded assignments, and they either can or cannot prove their knowledge. Grading based on completion just inflates their grades, and grades represent their knowledge level.

[u/Glass-Gold-2940]

It is his problem ultimately. You will burn out trying to save everyone.

[u/Distinct-Guitar-3314]

Don’t accommodate him. You can’t care more than them

[u/PrettySureIAmRight]

I think more info is needed.

Is he just making a personal choice not to take notes? Does his parents know? How are the other teachers handling it? Does he carry a bookbag and notebook? Does he have an IEP for a scribe or tech?

Assuming this is just a kid being diffilcult... one thing I do to help with notes is I color code things students need to copy, vocab words, and thing I want students to answer or do in my slideshow... its work upfront but makes it easier for the kids that "dont know how" to take notes... I also grade notebooks and vocabulary once a semester.

[u/Loud-Inevitable5338 → u/PrettySureIAmRight]

Hey!! No IEP, spoke to mom literally two days ago about it and the expectation of the course. I use annotation on the board for the students to know what to write. I think it’s a personal choice. Not too bad of a kid but just one of them where he thinks he can scoot by

[u/Spock-1701 → u/Loud-Inevitable5338]

He may change his tune after the first assessment or two.

[u/PrettySureIAmRight → u/Loud-Inevitable5338]

Got it! Yeah we all have those kids. I asked about the bag because I have students who literally come to school without a bag, notebook or writing utensil. We can only do so much. I used to give out notebooks and really try my best to engage them. Sometimes I would let them leave their books in my room... but at the end of the day if a kid doesnt want to do the work, you cant force it. Someone here mentioned burn out and thats a serious thing! After I feel like I made a serious effort... I move on.

[u/Mean-Objective-2022]

Not a problem if he doesn’t take notes make notes mandatory that you review the notes before any test can be retaken for a better grade. Then when he can’t produce notes, then whatever grade he gets on the test is what he gets and if he’s a genius and can ace all the test then so be it

[u/BrainsLovePatterns]

Maybe not an option now, since homework seems to be “disappearing” …but teachers of core subjects at the private school where I spent most of my career were expected to assign a moderate amount of it…so I often assigned my 7th grade life science students to attempt to outline a short lesson from their textbook - and I counted all genuine attempts as a homework credit. The 1-minute video clarifies why i did this, and how I supported students in this regard (and now am trying to make it easier for teachers to do likewise). https://youtu.be/5xw1jgU317o?is=Tv7sT3uhHIoJlGAQ

[u/babyornobaby11]

I agree not to accommodate him.

If you want to force the issue, make some quizzes or tests open notes. Notes must be handwritten (you will want to explicitly state that) No notes, no help.

I’m not a huge fan for older students doing open notes but for 8th grade it might be ok.

[u/Curious_Instance_971]

The best thing you can do for this student is continue to encourage him to take notes and let him suffer the natural consequences if he doesn’t. I might even get give the class a notebook quiz here and there.

[u/alax_12345]

Honestly? You need to have regular quizzes on the notes. If you let this habit fester, everyone will blame you.

Friday quiz. 5-10 questions. Yes to notes. “Copy the KPCOFGSV diagram from Tuesday’s notes” and “what was the third item in the list I gave you yesterday.”

It’ll probably take a few weeks but at least you have evidence that it’s on him and that the only kids who passed were ones that took even minimal notes. Or you find out he doesn’t need to.

[u/Realistic-Might4985]

See how he does on the first test. If he aces it, carry on. A low grade? Then we need to talk about note taking and study habits.

[u/blackdog1212]

This kid doesn't have an IEP or a 504, so I don't know if it is just laziness or some one who is undiagnosed. For me I have dyslexia and dysgraphia ADHD and a few other things going on.Taking notes was damed if you do damed if you don't for me. Taking notes took so much effort to make the letters into words I would have no idea what I was writing. I could have been copying down history or biology and I would not have actually known the difference because I did hear anything that was said. That is how much effort it took for me just to copy from the board. I was so focused on writing down what was on the board. I would only get half the notes before the teacher changed slides because I write so slowly. At best I would get half the notes.

If I didn't take notes I had a better chance of being able to fallow along with the general topic but my dyslexia with its memory issues ment I was only going to remember a small portion of what got said 15 minutes later. Then you add in the ADHD. If I was having a bad day I would be off in left field some place in my mind thinking about who knows what instead of being able to concentrate on the lecture.

I don't know if this kid has any of these things going on. If he cares about doing the work or his grades then I would say he cares in general.

I do remember in a few classes being so lost and far behind that I knew I would never be able to dig my self out. I had just given up and excepted my fate that I was going to fail.

[u/Loud-Inevitable5338 → u/blackdog1212]

Oh my, that’s terrible. Were you able to overcome this during school years? Did you get diagnosed and accommodated?

[u/blackdog1212 → u/Loud-Inevitable5338]

I had note takers later on or the teacher would give me a copy of the lecture. I had been diagnosed in 1st grade so it was a matter of adding it to my accommodations. I was reluctant to ask for accommodations. I was really self conscious about my disabilities in grade school. I didn't want any one finding out. I got bullied really bad in elementary school and middle school because of my disabilities. I have found even teachers and professors can be condescending and less than understanding when it comes to people with disabilities.

Having the notes helped but ther is still the matter of reading them with the dyslexia. There's not much they can do about the memory problems. The ADHD I got medicine for. It helped some but I was still lost in space frequently. All that helped but it didn't make the problems go away. I still struggle in adult hood whare there is not much in life that gives you accommodations. I just do the best I can with what I have.

[u/ScienceSeuss]

Parent contact!

[u/KiwasiGames]

You must be in a nicer area than me. This describes about half of my year 8s and year 9s.

There is no effective solution. 8s are old enough to realise that they there really isn’t any immediate punishment the adults can give them if they don’t comply. And they are too young to care about the long term consequences of being uneducated.

Document the behaviour. Report it up the chain. Then let the kid get a failing grade.

[u/con-la-bruja]

Documentation for both admin and parents!

[u/Gullible_Travel_4135]

I dont know any 8th graders that take notes

[u/Fickle-Copy-2186]

As hard as it is for you to suffer through, every student has a right to fail.

[u/nnzcnth]

Why would you accommodate him? I would 💯 meet with parents and maybe a counselor/admin and document in writing that student chooses not to take notes.
And if/when he has a question regarding work, refer him to his notes first, textbook or PPT second (if you provide them online or something for him) and you LAST. When he asks a question he needs to ask a specific question and tell you what answer he thinks it is and why before you help him (that is how I would accommodate him). It’s not a refusal to help, it a procedure on how to approach problem solving skills - which by the way is a part of science.

[u/MasterCrumb]

So a couple of thoughts.

I am not generally someone who writes notes. It actually makes it harder for me to listen- so generally even for a lecture class- I would just listen (and I did fine). The goal of your course (I presume) is to learn biology, so that should be the focus, not on note taking. I find the comments about requiring notes for class strange- if someone can learn the material without notes- why is that a problem?

Now, I don’t think this means you need to preemptively accommodate him either. I liked the recommendation about waiting till after first assessment. Then it makes sense to follow up with those kids who didn’t do well. Are there strategies that would help them? (And maybe that is even learning to take notes first this kid).

Final thought. Engagement. Once again, not for this kid specifically- but inclusive. I might be reading between the lines, but it seems like your base practice is a lot of direct lecture. (Obviously I could be wrong). I don’t think this is a great way to learn for more folks (even adults). I would encourage exploring strategies (especially as a new teacher). Start small, but grow with time.

Best of luck to you.

[u/Loud-Inevitable5338 → u/MasterCrumb]

Hey!! Notes isn’t a requirement per se, and I do 20-25 minutes of talking/direct instruction MAX. It’s a 90 minute class. If you can get the material without taking notes that’s fine, no issue. What kind of strategies would you suggest that I can implement? Open to suggestions

[u/WizardsMyName]

The general vibe in here is not to accommodate, and I'd agree, but... Be careful because he's young enough that he may be a sharp kid with undiagnosed ADHD or something that makes note taking a) difficult to engage with and b) not strictly necessary if he's been able to keep on top of the material so far up to grade 8. Especially if he seems disinterested in the lecture.

This was how I got through a lot of school and it only failed me at about 17.

[u/ilovescoutanddaisy → u/WizardsMyName]

i kind of agree with this. notes were hard for me to do. i do better just focusing on listening instead of frantically trying to take notes. fill in notes would be a dream!

[u/More_Branch_5579]

Why would you accommodate him or give him any special treatment?

He seems to choose this vs it being an IEP thing which would call for accommodation.

Lazy doesn’t. Let natural consequences happen. Please don’t do anything extra to help him. You will be hindering his growth

[u/AggravatingBed7135]

I don’t take notes” at 13 usually means “I can’t keep up,” “I don’t know what’s worth writing down,” or “I’ve decided I’m bad at school and not trying is safer than trying and failing” — so grab two minutes with him one-on-one, not during class and not as a correction, and just ask what does work for him. Meanwhile, the cheap fixes: skeleton notes with blanks and pre-drawn diagrams to label (a blank page is the real barrier for a lot of these kids), letting him draw instead of write since bio is the easiest subject in the building for that, chunking your lecture into 8-minute blocks with 60 seconds of doing something in between, and giving him an actual job in class — being needed feels very different from being watched. Since you’re new there, also pull his file and find whoever taught him last year, because there may already be a 504, a reading level, or a home situation you don’t know about. And keep the pressure on the right problem: it isn’t the notes, it’s that he’s lost when the work starts. Hand him back something he couldn’t finish and ask what would have helped — that’s a much harder question to shrug off than “you should be taking notes.

[u/MessyEndings]

Do you record your lectures? Does the kid have an IEP? I think it's cool that you are asking for possible alternatives! Good luck.