r/Ultralight • u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com • 19d ago
Skills Most r/ultralight Members Aren't Actually Ultralight, but They're Close?
I scraped 233 r/ultralight lighterpack URLs made up of shakedown requests, trip reports, and gear discussions then ran an analysis. I supplemented the analysis with 88 community wiki reference lists for a point of comparison. The parsing and categorization isn't perfect, but the overall takeaways seem fairly robust.
Median base weight across 233 scraped posts is 11.6 lb / 5.2 kg. Only 33% of lists met the traditional UL threshold (<10 lb / 4.5 kg).
| Tier | Threshold | Lists | % |
|---|---|---|---|
| SUL | < 5 lb / 2.3 kg | 4 | 1.7% |
| UL | < 10 lb / 4.5 kg | 73 | 31.3% |
| Light | < 20 lb / 9.1 kg | 146 | 62.7% |
| Traditional | 20 lb + | 10 | 4.3% |
Interquartile range: 9.2 to 14.2 lb — most packs cluster solidly in the light-but-not-quite-ultralight zone.
The wiki reference lists are noticeably lighter: 8.7 lb / 4.0 kg median, 66% hitting the UL threshold. The gap between the wiki's curated showcase and actual subreddit posts is about 3 lb.
What's actually in these packs?
Frequency of specific items across the 233 scraped lists (unique lists, not total item mentions):
| Item | Lists | % |
|---|---|---|
| Extra socks (any) | 200 | 85.8% |
| Insulation layer (down/puffy/fleece) | 175 | 75.1% |
| Toothbrush | 169 | 72.5% |
| Rain jacket | 149 | 63.9% |
| BIC Mini lighter | 120 | 51.5% |
| iPhone (any model) | 109 | 46.8% |
| SmartWater 1L bottle | 103 | 44.2% |
| Garmin inReach Mini | 81 | 34.8% |
| NeoAir XLite sleeping pad | 81 | 34.8% |
| Darn Tough socks | 80 | 34.3% |
| Sawyer Squeeze | 70 | 30.0% |
| Durston X-Mid | 65 | 27.9% |
| TOAKS 750ml Ti pot | 56 | 24.0% |
| BRS-3000T stove | 48 | 20.6% |
Quilts outnumber sleeping bags roughly 2:1 (50% vs 28% of lists). Quilt median: 607g / 21.4 oz. Sleeping bag median: 756g / 26.7 oz. Sleeping pad median: 369g / 13.0 oz.
Where the weight is vs. a reference UL benchmark:
| Category | Community median | Benchmark | % of lists heavier than bechmark |
|---|---|---|---|
| Hygiene | 179g / 6.3 oz | 100g | 77% |
| Sleep system | ~1,123g / 39.6 oz | 900g | 70% |
| Shelter | ~850g / 30.0 oz | 600g | 70% |
| Clothing + rain | 666g / 23.5 oz | 650g | 51% |
| Pack | 790g / 27.9 oz | 800g | 49% |
| Cooking | 293g / 10.3 oz | 300g | 49% |
| Electronics | 423g / 14.9 oz | 450g | 45% |
Pack and cooking are the categories where r/ultralight has actually figured it out. Sleep system and shelter are where the most room remains.
Methodology: Pulled lighterpack URLs from r/ultralight's RSS feed. Base weight uses lighterpack's worn and consumable flags (worn weight = shoes + on-body clothing, excluded). Brand and item counts search item name + description fields; each list counted once per list.
Full write-up with per-category breakdowns, additional brand frequencies, and the full, not-parsed lighterpack dataset for download, plus much, much much better content presentation: https://trailpeaches.com/2026/08/11/lighterpackdata/
Happy to dig into any category or answer methodology questions.
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u/ChthonicIrrigation 19d ago
Ultralight is a methodology not a goal imo.
Edit: but interesting stats of course!
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u/barryg123 19d ago
> Ultralight is a methodology not a goal imo.
Great way of looking at it. And teachable
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u/Prestigious-Forte909 19d ago
Yes, I agree on the methodology. I dont want to be <10 lbs, but ultralight is helping me greatly reduce my initial 22lb pack.
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u/Already-asleep 19d ago
Yep, I was just on a week-long trip where my total weight with food/water was 32lbs (17lb base weight). Last year, I took a two night trip where I left the house with almost the same weight. Considering that I packed heavy duty rain gear for the BC rainforest and I brought sandals for beach camping, I'm sure I can get my BW even lower for our next trip (probably 15-16). I've already decided it's not worth the compromised sleep to go for a colder quilt or a narrower, lower R value pad (ETA: I'm begging someone to make a wide, short pad for those of us under 5'6!). I'm at the stage now where I've whittled down my gear list and the best way for me to cut weight on my pack is replacing gear for lighter options and I've already spent well over a grand on that already. That might be nothing to some folks but it's an investment for me.
On top of that, realistically the only way for me to go UL or even just very LW is to hike solo. My partner doesn't care about weight at all and doesn't really make the connection between a heavy pack and fatigue, pains, speed, etc. He already hates our 3P Tiger Wall for not being as spacious as a heavier free-standing tent and for having such fragile-feeling material, and he doesn't want to eat out of a pot!
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u/Huntsmitch 19d ago
Time for a new partner. Jk! Wild that a 3P tent is not spacious enough for two lol. Maybe let them know if they brought less crap they wouldn’t need more space! Good luck to y’all!
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u/Already-asleep 19d ago
Honestly, he doesn't even bring THAT much stuff, other than maybe a few layers he doesn't need haha. I think he likes the feeling of roominess more than actually needing the space. We also sometimes backpack with our dog who is like 45lbs, which can make it a little more squishy, but even then I think it's fine even with us both using wide pads. At the end of the day I'm happy to have a partner who likes to backpack at all, but I might be a smidge more tolerant of "discomfort" lol.
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
On the wide short pad front: I used neoair xlite torso pads for years. They then stopped making them after mine finally failed after 13k miles of use. I've learned that despite the sketchy feeling of it, cutting down a neoair and resealing it with an iron works crazy well! Feels sketchy, but totally works. Can now just get regular sized whatever, cut it to roughly the length you want. You'll lose warranty... But you get the kit you want.
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u/_Bourbon 19d ago
Agreed! Im on my own journey with it - I was at an honest 9.5 lb early this summer and had some absolutely miserable trips. Im at 11.5 lb now - adding those two lbs was hard to swallow, but I'm having fun again and sleeping like a king. Im actually quite proud of how luxurious my 11.5 lb kit is, and definitely couldn't have gotten there without this sub.
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u/joakim1024 7d ago
Very much so. For me its about enjoying the walking more. Lower weight does that. But if i sleep bad that has more negative impact than 200g extra in sleep system. I would also rather carry a more efficient stove like the windmaster than a BRS. The weight penalty on the stove is likely compensated in less gas carried (depending a bit on conditions) and much nicer and safer to use imo. Just some examples. I want to be as light as possible but not at any expense. As said, the purpose of saving weight for me is to be more comfortable over all. Not to have low numbers in a list.
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
I agree in theory, but it literally is a goal, lol. The common definition of Ultralight is 10 lbs or less. It's been so before this sub was around.
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u/ChthonicIrrigation 19d ago
I just don't agree or care
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
That's fine. Just funny that "UL is not a goal" is getting upvoted in a sub where UL is defined as a goal in the description, lol.
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u/grumpsaboy 19d ago
Someone who is 6'5" will find it far harder than someone 5' to reach 10lbs.
Similarly if in very cold temperatures you need more equipment than a nice room temperature.
It's very much a methodology. 10 lbs was decided for an average person in normal conditions. But would you say a tall person in the arctic who's taken ever possible measure to reduce weight but sits at 14 lbs isn't ultra light?
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u/DeputySean Lighterpack.com/r/nmcxuo - TahoeHighRoute.com - @Deputy_Sean 19d ago
It doesn't matter how tall you are, going ultralight is always incredibly easy (under normal 3 season conditions).
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u/Alexsen56 19d ago
This is unsurprising to me. Most of these lighterpacks are from shakedown requests, which are mostly posted by people who are not quite ultralight and want to shed some weight. Cool to see the data laid out like this.
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u/goddamnpancakes 19d ago
I'm curious to see this split between region stated in the shakedown. are northerly, wet biomes inducing heavier lists than PCT desert trips?
...I say having just added rain pants, bear spray, my warmer vest....
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
Would love for a more robust dataset to do that!! Umm... I guess I could loose some agentic models to stalk each user that submitted a lighterpack URL and crawl their comment history to see if there's any past comments providing information or signal for the region they live in.... I don't think I have the compute tokens nor reddit API availability to make that viable or worthwhile though? Happier if you have a different suggestion to more easily get at that questions!!
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u/alligatorsmyfriend 18d ago
A lot of lighter pack posts name a major trail they're planning for or region in the post with the link don't they? no stalking needed? it's part of the shakedown request guidelines
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u/Foldedtree 18d ago
Probably not enough entries, but here are a few lighter packs of people that have “figured it out”: https://www.reddit.com/r/Ultralight/s/PDp6Q5RVH0
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u/Marinlik 19d ago
Honestly people need to stop calling the SoCal part of the PCT "desert". I got snowed on more there than any other section. I had rain every three days on average. People I hiked with had to get rescued by trail angels because they sent away their rain gear "because it's the desert". Others spent a morning breaking into an unlocked car and sitting in there because they didn't have warm clothes. I think it's become a real issue where people go so UL that if the weather turns bad their only option is to call for rescue
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u/shaunpmcadams 19d ago
OK, fess up. Who are the 13.3% that can take an extra pair of socks, but is unwilling to brush their teeth.
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u/Alternative_Swing829 3d ago
Haha this comment is sending me. Not me btw I'm bringing two pairs of socks and a full length toothbrush
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u/trimbandit 19d ago edited 19d ago
I think your assumption is flawed. Those at UL weights are much less likely to be posting lighterpacks and looking for feedback
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u/Mammoth-Pineapple62 19d ago
This right here ^
People most often are here asking for advice on getting lighter- not “look at my UL setup and clap”7
u/Cold_Rhubarb_6783 19d ago
While this is true - I do wish more truly UL folk would post their packs. I think it would be a nice reference even if it’s not something I’ll attain lol
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
I totally agree. I love getting feedback from experienced ULers and from people who have familiarity with the area I’ll be hiking in. I’ve posted shakedown requests with 6.3 lb base weights and gotten lots of useful feedback on this sub. I wish others would do the same.
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
Pretty, cool. Thanks for sharing.
I'd be curious to know how many of the 10 lb lighterpack lists are missing essential or very common items. I mean, 27.5% of the total don't have a toothbrush. Toothpaste didn't make the list?
Many example budget UL lists are missing items (I know the ones in the wiki are pretty good).
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
Yeah, the toothbrushes specifically flagged for me too. Obviously almost 100% of folks are bringing that shit, so what else is being left off or not included? I think if I grab lighterpacks from user's flair, I can probably get a good dataset of "almost everything included", and then can maybe estimate what's missing from the scraped lists, and model an "additional weight" category from often excluded items.
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u/Pfundi 19d ago
Your "problems" all come from including shakedown posts.
There's so many half finished pack lists, so many 30lb lists and ¾ of posters never answer or update their list. And that's with the worst offenders usually getting deleted by the mod team.
Use trip reports only and you'd probably be looking at something entirely different.
This subreddit is a vocal minority and 90% "normal" hikers.
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
Yes: gear lists from trip reports would be a better data set. I wish more ultralighters would post shakedown requests, but it’s usually people trying to get advice on how to get closer to ultralight. Or just looking for tips to get lighter without being that interested in being ultralight.
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u/Pfundi 19d ago
I mean I get why they don't. If I look at my list I know exactly where I could save, but I either want to keep the luxury or I don't want to spend the money. And I'm sure you're exactly the same.
If I ask it's more about local conditions, weather, temperature, resupplies, stuff I should pack in addition that isn't needed at home. Things like that.
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
Right, that latter part — adapting one’s kit to the trail & environment— is where I have always found shakedowns valuable despite being well in UL territory already.
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u/alligatorsmyfriend 18d ago
I've been trying to study GDT pack lists and I keep finding people bringing zero underwear for instance. I'm not sure commando is that popular
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u/Organic_Creme_5692 19d ago
how do you work out what is a toothbrush? do you look for the word directly? in my current WIP LP (not shared anywhere) for an up coming trip I have "tooth stuff, bamboo brush, toothpaste tabs, floss pick" as an entry i wonder if that kind of stuff gets picked up. I guess people can be a loose with language making stuff harder to detect as well
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
Even that is pretty much always suspicious. It's just not clear. Like, were all those items put on the scale at the same time? Were they in a bag? Does the weight include that bag? What if you need to swap one of those items but not others? You put them all back in a bag and weight them together again?
Almost always that kind of logging is indicative of estimates rather than real data. Every single item should be its own entry imo.
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
I suppose I disagree. I create small kits — e.g. hygiene kit or first aid & repair kit — and weigh each as a single thing in its little zip pouch. Counting tiny things as separate items aggregates small measurement errors. It’s more accurate to weigh the small kits as a unit. Doing it that way also leads to a more readable lighterpack, imho.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
Counting tiny things as separate items aggregates small measurement errors
Yeah, you need a precise scale to do it that was I suppose.
What do you do then if you want to swap out a single item from those kits?
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
Re-weigh the kit.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
But then don't you need to have N different entries for the same "hygiene kit", for example, in LighterPack? Or do you just update the value and accept that your previous lists won't be correct anymore?
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
My method is pretty inefficient, I guess. I copy and paste the description from another list, make any changes, then weigh the kit. My hygiene kit is almost always exactly the same though: thumbprint toothbrush, head cover, 0.35 ml tube of toothpaste, flossers (2) in a 1” x 2” plastic zip bag. I don’t actually like the feature of lighterpack that makes changes across your various lists. I do a new lighterpack for every trip.
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u/GoSox2525 18d ago
Gotcha. I also do a new list per trip, of course, but I try to minimize duplicating items. I guess yours are technically not duplicates though.
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u/liveslight https://lighterpack.com/r/ny89al 19d ago
This is a nice idea. Thanks! Are you scraping lighterpacks given in user flairs?
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u/Alexsen56 19d ago
This would be interesting to see. If your lighterpack is in your flair, it’s probably pretty dialed
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
No -- although that's a good idea, but slightly harder to do systematically!
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u/kanakukk0 19d ago
Sorry had to click and intrude. "Lightload towel, 12" x 24"UL option used to dry condensation inside the tent; 18g" Try "Swedish cloth" as they say in your part of the world. Better and lighter; mine weights 7g.
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u/liveslight https://lighterpack.com/r/ny89al 19d ago edited 19d ago
Thanks for the suggestion. What are the dimensions of 7 g of "Swedish cloth"? How much does it weigh when wet and NOT dripping? That is, how much water does it hold? And is it large enough to prevent a stove from rattling around in a 900 mL pot when a fuel canister is in there, too?
Again: thanks for checking out my lighterpack! :)
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u/patrickpdk 19d ago edited 19d ago
I'll say it again and I'll say it forever no matter how many people disagree. I started UL decades ago and it was always a philosophy as i knew it. There is no weight range for ultralight. Ultralight means this lightest possible weight you can carry while still achieving your trip objectives.
Also everyone forgot that you can carry 35 lbs with an 18 oz pack that's durable and comfortable. Going to die on that hill too.
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u/kelp_forests 5d ago
As an OG one bagger (similiar to you and UL) I just wanted to say thank you and I agree with you because I have had the same experience on other subs. I also used to ride bikes and there were plenty of “weight weenies” in thst community too.
I’m currently making an ultralight camping kit and I can’t easily get it down below 12lbs (probably be 15 when I add clothes) Well, I could, if I spent way more money on a backpack and a bag style tent that used my pole. Which I’d consider if I was hiking long distance, but I’m not. I also want to be comfortable and not rescued. Im curious how accurate the spreadsheet is as my usual pack can get almost to 20 without any special equipment (just cut camera gear). And in making these packing lists thinking there is no way to get sub 10 without sacrificing basic functionality, convenience, comfort or safety. I’m sure there is but I don’t see it. Also i think its easier to hike with an extra lb then spend $1000. Especially when i am adding food and water later.
If you would like to use poles for your tent, how do you hike with poles for a day hike? Just leave the tent partially down at camp, hope it doesn’t blow away, and re set up? Take and pack the whole tent with you for no reason then set it up when you get back? Or just do without poles? What if you break a hiking pole, you can’t camp? Obviously people use hiking poles as tentpoles without issue, but to me seems like a safety issue if you are remote. Being able to use a hiking pole as a backup seems a lot smarter.
I usually hike witha 35lb pack. Not through hiking. A 12 lb pack and a 10lb pack are going to feel the same to me. Especially when the 2lbs is in comforts. If I was through hiking and that that 2lbs was in safety/durability I’d take it. Also smaller people really do have an advantage…everything is smaller.
My old riding partner would laugh when someone spent an extra $200 to shave 100g. Then ride with an iphone and car keys. Meanwhile easiest way to cut weight on a bike is to go to the bathroom and ditch a water bottle/cage. Or lose a few lbs yourself.
I’m interested in being UL but 10lbs to me seems an arbitrary choice. I’ll go as light as I can and no further. If you can go lighter, kudos to you, I’m happy to learn what you do and happy trails to you.
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u/SkurkaCuckedMe 19d ago
Who’s over 20 i want names
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
Download the linked dataset and check. I have summary stats on the csv file
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u/JustALittleSunshine 18d ago
you are insane if you aren't taking two pairs of socks. I would skip underwear first.
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 18d ago
Probably depends on the trip. I'll often forego them for weekend trips
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u/Plenty-Tailor5316 14d ago
my feet hardly sweat, and I wear a liner sock and darn tough so I could debate bringing the 2nd pair (still would) If I were a serious foot sweater I would have more pairs. Me, well, my hat, shirt and backpack are in for a sweat soaking. Hmmm extra hat and pack? LOL. no.
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u/RiccardoGilblas 18d ago
Important bias of these stats: by simply comparing the lists, you are assuming the trip conditions/objectives to be the same. While different objectives and expected conditions have a huge impact on final weight.
More, you are including benchmark weight for the various categories: what is this benchmark based on? For which conditions is it calibrated?
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u/PNWDIY 19d ago
Remember, the absolute most interesting definition of Ultralight is how lightweight can you make an item while still maintaining core functionality. Everyone's core functionality can be quite different; are you traveling in the summer or winter, are you going to the coast or a 10,000 foot peak, do you have allergic reactions that require you to carry an EpiPen, etc?. I think the absolute most boring generic conversation of ultralight how lightweight your pack is in the end. I'd much rather like to know the reasons why people are making the gear choices they do.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago edited 19d ago
The definition you're talking about is entirely uninteresting when it turns into people trying to find the lightest chair, the lightest e-reader, the lightest freestanding tent...
I agree with the core of what you're saying, but the total baseweight will always be a crucial part of what defines this sport, necessarily.
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u/SuddenSeasons 19d ago
And yet, because they cannot be as light as non-freestanding, you get a lot of people who say you can't discuss freestanding tents at all here. Or ever choose to take one when not absolutely necessary. So less gatekeeping is better than more, though I realize there absolutely has to be a line.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago edited 19d ago
First of all, I reject that what you mean by "gatekeeping" is actually gatekeeping. There is no gate being kept when people are being educated, and are free to read and learn all they'd like here.
But even if I grant that "gatekeeping" means what you're implying it means, less isn't really better than more. There are a few zealous users that are doing that. The mods sort of do it, but not enough. We have 234 thousand users here. Most of them have zero interest in ever actually hiking ultralight. We have a firehose of off-topic posts. On on-topic posts, we have a firehose of off-topic comments. Constant mockery of ultralight hiking, in the comment sections on an ultralight forum.
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u/SuddenSeasons 19d ago
I don't really think we disagree, I think we see where the line is differently, and that makes sense. I don't think either is correct - like I have no argument that my way is better, it's mostly my personal vibes. I fully agree there needs to be a line, and suspect there isn't that much daylight between our two preferences.
And because we're all complex and contradictory, I bet that line may be different depending on the topic! It's all good, I am just glad there are still real people out there to have these discussions with.
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u/Life-Diver-4280 19d ago
Hiking and camping are the sports, being ultralight is to enable you to achieve goals for these
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
r/Ultralight is the largest online Ultralight Backcountry Backpacking community!
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u/Life-Diver-4280 19d ago edited 19d ago
A community isn’t a sport so not sure your point. Backpacking is the sport and ultralight is a style to do it.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
Sorry, I misread your previous comment. I agree. I didn't mean to imply as much with the word "sport" as you interpreted.
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u/Electrical_Emu1875 19d ago
Cool! I love me a good analysis !
At risk of enraging folks, I have an honest question : does anyone know why the benchmark is a fixed weight instead of a percentage of body weight or a combination of a fixed + variable weight? Incidentally, as a smaller bodied person, I would « lose » if it were variable…it has just always struck me as really odd not to consider the weight relative to the person carrying it since many items literally scale (most obviously clothes, bag/quilt)
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u/86tuning 19d ago
i think at some point it becomes a game. for sure, if you're 90kg then the <5kg benchmark is a bigger advantage than if you're 60kg. but weight is weight, so a <5kg pack feels a lot better than a 10kg baseweight, regardless of your bodyweight.
if you're 60kg bodyweight, perhaps look for ways to fringe on SUL so you'd not lose the % advantage to heavier peeps.
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u/Electrical_Emu1875 19d ago
Im happy where im at, the basis just seems odd to me. And you’re right - lighter feels better regardless!
I had to do a little eye roll though when a guy literally a foot taller than me and double my weight (and super athletic) kept flexing about his 65lb pack (flexing that he was carrying more than his share) evidently not realizing that my 40 lb pack was a bigger % of my body weight (and taking one for the team!)
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u/WhereDidAllTheSnowGo 19d ago
Simplicity
That’s also why they’re at 5, 10, 20# not 7, 12, and 22#
You’re point about body weight percentage is HUGE with youth.
I try my best to get Scouts (parents) to buy 35L, not 65L packs at age 12 simply because they’ll fill them up because not UL trained yet, are then even more slower than the older scouts, and then hate hiking more
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u/Electrical_Emu1875 19d ago
At some % of body weight, it’s also not great for their bodies to be lugging the weight.
I just remember 25 years ago we routinely split the load to balance by % body weight, but this seems to have dropped away from the conversation these days
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u/WhereDidAllTheSnowGo 19d ago
Truth
Our Crews adjust weight by speed, usually. The skinny cross country runner sometimes ends up carrying the full pack of the slowest, heavier youth. They work it out, aiming to get all to arrive at the same time
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u/Seidhr96 19d ago
I see ultralight as more of a philosophy than way of life, and I think most people feel the same. The goal is to try and be ultralight, but accepting that you’ll just get close because at the end of the day, we backpack to have fun, not suffer
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
<20 lbs is "light"? Might wanna change that.
Even /r/lightweight defines it as <15 lbs baseweight
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
Where is light defined as 15 lbs?
As in where at in that sub? Seriously asking because I was looking if there was a definition somewhere. Not that it matters, just curious.
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u/Any_Trail https://lighterpack.com/r/esnntx 19d ago
It's in the sidebar for the subs description.
A community about Lightweight Backpacking with our goal weight being approximately 15 pounds without food or water
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
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u/schmorgie https://lighterpack.com/r/3942wn 19d ago
Looks like there's a difference between the new and old reddit UI:
https://old.reddit.com/r/lightweight/
https://www.reddit.com/r/lightweight/
PS: I prefer old reddit
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19d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
I think 20 lbs is a good spot for "light". Anyone with a 20 lb BW has put thought into keeping their weight down. They likely have done a trip or two already. I think it is is attainable for almost everyone.
I made an example lighterpack of decent affordable off-the-shelf gear (noob friendly) and came up with about 18.5 lbs - https://lighterpack.com/r/ytr3rq
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
Anyone with a 20 lb BW has put thought into keeping their weight down
I really don't think you can defend this. 20 lbs is a lot. Modern gear isn't that heavy. Someone could walk into REI, buy a full traditional backpacking kit, and be under 20 lbs no doubt. 20 lbs, imo, is categorically heavy.
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
You are wrong. I defended it in the post you just replied to. Look at that lighter pack. Packs are commonly much heavier (pounds), tents are commonly much heavier (pounds), pads are commonly a pound or more heavier. Then, I was pretty selective with the rest of the gear, which saved pounds.
You cannot walk into REI as a noob and get under 20lbs unless you have some knowledge and that is your goal. As I said, thought has to be put into it.
Please try to prove me wrong, I'd like to have better options to offer.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
I guess it depends what you mean by "put thought into it". I absolutely believe that a noob who has done no research could walk into REI, and simply follow the marketing and employee advice to purchase an Osprey pack, a Nemo tent, a Thermarest pad, whatever sleeping bag, and be below 20 lbs.
Doesn't your LP you linked demonstrate exactly that?? As you say, everything there is affordable and off-the-shelf.
Maybe all you mean is that a complete idiot who walks into REI and buys a bunch of car camping gear with the delusion of shoving it into a backpack and hiking will be over 20 lbs? In which case, sure.
I just don't think that 20 lbs is light by ay means.
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
I agree that 15 lbs is a better goal for anyone remotely serious about backpacking. It costs 20% more though and that is a lot to many people.
I'm a Scout leader so I'm faced with "complete idiots" (parents that have never backpacked, some have never camped) fairly regularly.
- I just looked up backpacking tents at REI, sorted by popular, then looked for the first affordable 1 person - MSR Elixir - $290 - 5 LBS. It says "Ideal for newer backpackers..."
- The most popular Osprey pack - 4.75 lbs.
- Most of the stuff labeled "Ultralight" on Amazon is very heavy - stainless steel even.
- Then you've got clothes. Just a fleece hoodie for a kid can be 3 lbs.
Sorry, I'm just a little offput when someone says it's "easy". I put a lot of prep and work into teaching Scouts to get their packs under 20 lbs (total for a weekend). Some of their base weights are 15 lbs but again, it's a lot of work and cost.
The parents that come in with their first pack... >30 lbs.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
Fair enough; you obviously have more experience with new backpackers than I do. Maybe I've been <10 lbs for too long and forgot what it's like to be green...
I do agree that clothing is often the achilles heel for newbies. Some people come with a pound of clothes, some come with 8 pounds.
I'm a Scout leader so I'm faced with "complete idiots" fairly regularly.
lol
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u/Fun_With_Math 19d ago
"lol" - yeah, its true without the parentheses. Kids are great. Some adults are not.
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u/barryg123 19d ago
we used to call less than 14-15 lbs ultralight. yeah im an old head. times have changed
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u/Abominable_Weasel 19d ago
I think this makes a good deal of sense - I dug pretty hard into ultralight stuff when I replaced a bunch of gear a few years ago, but I found that at a base weight of about 11 lb I essentially never thought about my backpack, and so I never actually pushed to cut the last 1-1.5 lbs.
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u/pasteurs-maxim 19d ago
I'm sure there's a lot of variance related to time of year, part of the world etc.
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u/mlite_ Am I UL? 19d ago
OP, great analysis and you clearly have data skills. One Lighterpack data question I’ve always had is:
Is there a correlation between the total number of items and the total weight?
I’ve been mulling this theory that streamlining gear should both simplify the experience and also lower weight. Can you tell?
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
Impossible to tell that, really, since some people log every single item, and other people just enter "FAK" as a single item.
If anything, the LPs with more items will probably skew to lower baseweights, since the people logging that way are the ones that are the most obsessed. And that apparent result would almost certainly be the opposite of reality.
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
Can you discuss your UL benchmarks and how you arrived at those numbers? I’d be interested is see the actual median numbers for each, but limiting your data set to gear lists that are under the UL threshold. I’d also like to see those median numbers for kits that are in the lightweight range. It would be interesting to see where the lists most diverge.
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
Check the complete write-up on my site. Largely I looked at staples, my own pack preferences, rounding numbers, and set them based on "what's reasonable" to an average backpacker. I also have medians from the submitted ultralight lists on the wiki page. The figure I have on my site will give you a better sense.
Like, my backpack target is higher than it "needs to be", because folks are largely fine doing frameless packs -- which is surprising to me. Yet my tent assumptions are more aggressive, which I think is maybe because people don't want to shell out $600 on dyneema tents, and really are not ready to adopt tarps.
You could argue for different benchmarks, but I largely think these are fine based on the sorts of reasonable things that fall into each category around that rounded benchmark number
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u/Belangia65 19d ago
I’m not criticizing the benchmarks per se. Those are arbitrary and don’t affect the larger analysis. But I’m still interested in how UL gear lists differs from Lightweight gear lists. What does a backpack weigh in the average UL gear list vs the average in a LW data set, for instance? I think the real numbers would be good to know.
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u/parrotia78 19d ago edited 19d ago
6'5" 220 lbs. My 3 season BW wt varies depending on the trip. It's between 3-4 lbs for a weekender to 12 lbs thru hiking say an XYZ trail. And, that's ok. I enjoyably without guilt get my miles and days done.
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u/PracticeMammoth387 18d ago
Only some noob here, but it's logical, given the list is posted with shakedown advice. Still amazing data collection
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u/ReplyIllustrious1455 18d ago edited 18d ago
I also find that body measurements also have an impact. Clothes etc. are heavier in large sizes... I travel with dogs for this purpose. I am at edit: 4.8kg, but on average on relaxed travel 5.x kg base weight. I am very satisfied with that. I know that I can still buy new rain clothes and thus save a lot of weight. On the other hand, I wait until she breaks down to replace. Sustainability is also important nowadays. We all love nature 😊🧘♂️☀️
And my companion on four paws also wants to sleep dry, so instead of a two-person tent, I use a tarp. It's easier with more space for both of us.
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u/Geomichi 17d ago
I don't think I'll ever get to Ultralight (I like my X-Dome 2 and Jetboil too much and don't trust any water filter that can't deal with viruses). I try to aim for under 9kg, often hover at around 7-7.5kg but if I end up at 10 for longer trips then that's ok as most of it is consumable.
But I love this sub because it helps me stay 'Light' even with food and water weight, helps me stay in the mindset of not packing things for the sake of it and has some great suggestions.
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u/F_NN_C 19d ago
Honestly the "sub 10 pounds" metric for being UL is pretty artificial for me.
Firstly, this value is US-centric, in Europe we are more on the 5kg BW (so 11 pounds). Why one would be more valid than another.
Secondly, and more important, sub-10 pounds is absolutely not the same "perceived" body weight if you are a big 1m90/95kg hiker or a small 1m55/45g hiker. The big ppl consume much more food and use much weavier items (shelter, sleeping bag/quilt, clothes...) but in exchange 10 pounds are more like 5% of the body weight instead of 10%.
It's a MASSIVE difference and therefore I believe that the criteria of being UL or not should not be that rigid.
It also depends on your physical shape, I've seen ppl with massive backpacks destroying the pace of UL hikers.
Being UL is a process of taking less, not a milestone to achieve to get a medal from the internet. So I'm not sure whether the stats here are relevant or not, especially since there is a HUGE biais which is that lighterpacks are often shared for improvement, meaning that there are far from "optimal" even from the point of view of the owner.
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u/DotaWemps 19d ago
This goes against the ultralight ethos, but at least I realized I dont want to be strictly ultralight. I used to have 4,5kg gearlist, but realized I am doing it for the lighterpack, not because I actually enjoy it. Personally I dont really notice the difference between 4,5kg, 5kg or even 6 kg, but some hundreds of grams let me bring some luxury items that actually make my hikes much more enjoyable.
Could I sleep with only one pillow? Sure, but two make my sleep much better. Could I read books from my phone? Sure, but I enjoy my Kindle more. Could I shave some weight during summer by having different sleeping pads for different seasons? Sure, but I dont want to buy extra stuff.
Maybe if I was there to set FKTs and running every day, it would matter. But I am not, I am trying to enjoy hiking.
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
All you're saying is that you tried UL, you didn't like it, so now you don't do it. Which is completely fine.
But we see this weird phenomenon where people try UL, decide they don't like it, stop doing it, and then continue to insist and argue about the fact that they still are "UL in name". Which I see as some seriously cumbersome and unnecessary mental gymnastics.
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u/wornleathermedia 19d ago
10lbs is an arbitrary number, without consideration for seasons, region, condition, or the hikers size (if you're big/tall your gear weighs more as does your food). That the median is actually that close to that random round number is actually pretty impressive.
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u/Bat-Stuff 19d ago edited 19d ago
My pack weighs over 8 pounds empty and I just did 7 days and started at 53 pounds with full gear and enough water for a few hours of hiking. I'm here for ideas on how to get a little lighter so I can carry more comforts. Edited because it was confusing.
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
I think you should probably carry more water, although I hear there's maybe some "dehydrated H2O tablets" you can buy!!
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u/Orange_Tang 19d ago
Not sure where you hike but if possible drive up along the trail and leave a water cache. That's a lot of water weight to carry.
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u/TheDaysComeAndGone 19d ago
Lots of lists are probably incomplete. According to you only 72% bring a toothbrush.
Did you sort manually? Did you count entries which are listed as optional/alternatives e.g. “alternative jacket if it’s cold” for example? I think this is a great task for an AI because it’s much better than a few search terms.
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
Turns out AI is actually terrible at doing that :). It just hallucinates what it wants to happen, so you have to be pretty specific, and it's hard to check if it's wrong or right.
I ended up just doing kmeans clustering and getting stop words and a bunch of other things manually for improving sorting and characterization. For smaller line items it's good at generating categories, but when going through tons of stuff, it's not great with assessing individually. It also gets lazy and doesn't want to go line by line and make sorting/parsing stuff happen, and of course you can trigger it to do API calls each time.
But overall, fuzzy matching with AI is pretty obnoxious to do systematically and repeatably, but it is good for getting some vibes of the data to then inform a more robust assessment approach.
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u/Sacahari3l 19d ago
People here are often obsessed with the 10 lb base weight while completely ignoring body size.
A gear list for someone who's 5'9" and 150 lb is naturally going to be much lighter than one for a person who's 6'6" and 230 lb. The difference can easily be 2–3 lb simply because larger people need larger shelters, longer/wider sleeping pads, bigger quilts, and clothing that weighs more.
So it's odd when an 8 lb gear list gets universal praise, while a much larger person's 10–11 lb list is met with suggestions for gear that either doesn't fit them or isn't even made in their size.
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u/zakublue 18d ago
Smaller people can also carry more weight proportional to body size than larger people if they are of a similar fitness level because you literally have to carry your own body weight and human bodies become less efficient the larger they get. Universal metrics are meaningless.
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u/Natural_Law https://rmignatius.wordpress.com/gear/ 19d ago edited 19d ago
This is good data. Thanks!
I often feel embarrassed I’m “only” in the 8-10lb range but maybe I shouldn’t!
The talk of making UL sub-8lbs makes me self-conscious I suppose.
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u/SuddenSeasons 19d ago
The talk of making UL sub 8lbs makes me self-conscious I suppose.
There's not like a governing body. It should all be more relative to body mass too. There's plenty of people who have no fitness and spend all of their time buying gear, I'd say get out there and enjoy your 14lb weight over obsessing about online grams. People also are not super truthful. They may not report things that they grab last minute.
I just hiked 45 miles in the Carolina AT using a jansport. It's fine.
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u/anto2554 19d ago
I'm kinda scared if 25% don't bring a toothbrush. Are y'all just stinking it out?
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u/wornleathermedia 19d ago
Exactly this. UL (if we're going to define it) should be 8-10% of body weight ... if you want to get really picky it could even be based on a bmi of 22 for your height.
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u/Natural_Law https://rmignatius.wordpress.com/gear/ 19d ago edited 19d ago
Good points!
What part of NC? I over the weekend I did a quick little sub 24 hour, 30 mile overnight between Wayah and Wesser (out and back).
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u/Spiley_spile 19d ago
UL moving to 8lbs doesnt solve the conflict actually driving that discussion. Because the conflict is only fractionally about how much things weigh.
There are 4 main interests under the UL banner: Exclusivism, minimalism, class/gear snobbery, and gear weight.
These categories overlap in places. But they diverge at important points.
The primary discontent driving the 8lb conversation is the current loss of exclusivism: Because 10lbs is still 10lbs. And minimalism is still minimalism. But the club's gotten less exclusive, due to increased access to lighter-weight materials.
As for the class snobbery interest, the people with plenty of money will be fine either way. Like most things, they can throw money at whichever camp to be included.
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u/F00TS0re 18d ago
There have been various versions of me. I used to weigh 210lbs when I was racing Ironmans and running marathons. Thats about as light as I get as I carry a lot of muscle (ex semi pro rugby player). I go up hills just fine.
If I get that fit I run up them. 🤣
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u/Dens413 16d ago
Are you pulling UL Lighterpack list or someone asking for weight reduction? Many people who ask wanting advice.
And fast question how many post you notice ignored “I forget to add weight to make sub 10ibs?” Many UL Lighterpack list I see 100% ignore simple things like wallet. Who no carry’s wallet or money or car keys. Or no add bear canister in list then mention they go to bear canister required area.
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u/mammon43 15d ago
Im just here to see options of saving weight so I can bring more stupid stuff. I shaved enough weight that I started bringing a 240whr battery and an ROG Ally and a solar panel so I can play video games in the middle of no where beside a lake and a campfire. Swapping a few more things and I now carry a wet suit to swim in any water I want while remaining a cold water coward
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u/TranquilGunner 13d ago
For my 10 day hike, my base is 13.94 and includes a camp chair weighing 1lb. I'm happy enough calling that UL, but some may disagree and to that I say HYOY.
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u/Snoppfrid 19d ago
Is there any compensation for UL weights if you’re tall? I have to have tall sleeping mat and sleeping bag and bigger sizes on my clothes. It does actually add more weight than most people think
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u/Curious-Act-9130 19d ago
You should have gone hiking instead.
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
At home with a newborn, so have bite sized amount of time where I can't go far but can burn time on little projects. But would absolutely be hiking if I could get those hours out of the house!
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u/dadykhoff 19d ago
I think you need to double check the "% heavier than benchmark" math
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
Whatcha seeing? I can re-run my python scripts -- as I filtered and recategorized stuff changed a bit, but I think it's checking out. Median is 50% lighter/heavier, and so nothing's flagging.
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u/Peaches_offtrail https://trailpeaches.com 19d ago
Just did a check:
Category Benchmark Lists w/data >Benchmark % over benchmark Delta Shelter 600g 220/233 (94%) 154 lists 70.00% 0.00% Sleep 900g 225/233 (97%) 158 lists 70.20% 0.40% Pack 800g 193/233 (83%) 95 lists 49.20% 0.00% Clothing 650g 225/233 (97%) 114 lists 50.70% 0.00% Cooking 300g 205/233 (88%) 100 lists 48.80% 0.00% Electronics 450g 215/233 (92%) 97 lists 45.10% 0.00% Hygiene 100g 222/233 (95%) 171 lists 77.00% 0.00% Water 175g 200/233 (86%) 98 lists 49.00% 0.00%
Category Median (g) Median (oz) Sample Size (n) Shelter 850g 30.0 oz 220 Sleep 1134g 40.0 oz 225 Pack 790g 27.9 oz 193 Clothing 666g 23.5 oz 225 Cooking 293g 10.3 oz 205 Electronics 423g 14.9 oz 215 Hygiene 179g 6.3 oz 222 Water 173g 6.1 oz 200
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u/donkiluminate 19d ago
I guess I’m just “light”. I know I could get lighter with a different backpack but I’m also not willing to give up a few things like my chair.
Where I really need to focus is food. I’m not very efficient with the food I bring
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u/AdvertisingOne1026 18d ago
The only reason I don't usually have a 10 lb baseweight is because bear cans/protection are required nearly anywhere I hike and a lot of times in the Sierra Nevada I'm above tree line or don't want the hassle of bear bagging.
In the desert I can get under 10 lbs pretty easy but the water carry makes the adventure anything but ultralight. Either way, getting close to 10 is a worthy goal in and of itself. Just having a wideranging kit that allows me to cut ounces allows me to enjoy the luxury of other pieces of kit (UL camp chair, larger shelter/tarp, warmer bag/kit etc.). I'm also not mad about my 11.5 baseweight on Sierra trips (since that includes chair and bear cannister)
TLDR: ultralight is more of a mentality than a number but the pursuit of that number breeds good skill/gear acquisition
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u/Stranded_In_A_Desert 19d ago
Honestly I’m definitely not full UL, but I like reading the threads in here because you guys actually spend real time on the trail and have a decent level of experience compared to other subs. The sub still often reminds me of old reddit, where people actually know what they’re talking about and put effort into posts and comments.
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u/megselvogjeg 19d ago
There arev some places where it is just impossible to be ultralight. Like in southern Canada where the temperature goes into the negatives overnight. No way you're hitting a 10lbs pack weight when dealing with negative temperatures.
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u/Any_Trail https://lighterpack.com/r/esnntx 19d ago
Are you talking in Celsius or Fahrenheit? If you're talking in Celsius then putting together a list isn't that hard for below freezing. If you're talking about Fahrenheit then it's significantly harder, but I wouldn't say impossible.
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u/barryg123 19d ago
We were never trying to be ultralight, but my moutnaineering kit has hit 90-95lbs before (including 10 days of food)
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u/GoSox2525 19d ago
What's wrong with that?
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u/megselvogjeg 18d ago
Nothing, I'm just saying that redditors from such places may contribute to OP's observation, myself among them.
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u/Alarmed-Yak-4894 19d ago
Makes sense, assuming that people are posting to ask how to improve and want to become ultralight.