r/boeing • u/GratefulnaLover • 3d ago
Update on Integrity
/r/boeing/comments/1uuizhq/new_rewritten_post_on_integrity/?share_id=2nlhifBsFrDFLK-ZDal5v&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1I just want to provide our Boeing community with an update regarding one of the cheating incidents that occurred during my time in FTC.
Apparently, an individual was caught red handed recording the PDD final exit exam. He was caught and escorted out, but ultimately, the union intervened and he was able to keep his job because he was past his 60 day probationary period. From what I understand, he believed he was untouchable and may have had connections within corporate.
Regardless of someone’s position or connections, integrity should always matter. If someone is caught cheating or engaging in serious violations of testing integrity, there should be meaningful consequences. In my opinion, this should include removing the referrer’s future ability to refer candidates. The integrity of our hiring and training processes depends on it. We never want to allow wolves in sheep skin into our gates!
Thankfully, enough of us spoke up and reached out to Ethics, and it appears Boeing finally took action. According to what I’ve heard, the individual was escorted off the premises and terminated finally! Ethics thoroughly investigated the situation and identified others who were involved, and they were reportedly removed from Boeing as well. 👏 Thank you Ethics/Boeing for doing what’s right.
How embarrassing 😳 for them.
Obviously, this is only one incident and just a drop in the bucket, but I do see it as a step in the right direction.
Accountability and integrity have to mean something, and I’m glad to see that concerns raised by us were ultimately taken seriously.
That said, if Boeing simply made everyone take a comprehensive, in person Math, Reading, and Writing test before giving out offer letters, we would not have such a high turnover of people who fail, cheat, or simply are not qualified for the work.
And I want to put a HUGE emphasis on the in person part. A government ID should be required, and the testing should be completed under controlled conditions so there is no opportunity for someone else to take an exam on a candidate’s behalf during the hiring process.
Not only would this help ensure that the people being hired actually possess the basic skills required for the job, but it could also save Boeing a significant amount of money in company resources spent training and skilling up individuals who ultimately have no business even looking at our airplanes.
Hiring the right people from the beginning benefits everyone. I want to work with people of high morale character and people who are smarter than me.
Anyways I finished training. It was easy peasy lemon squeezeee, never ever even used a life. Never failed, always was on time and respected the rules of FTC and Boeing. Now I get to go build planes for 18 months and figure out what I really want to do within Boeing after I serve my time.
😅
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u/silsum 2d ago
what you saw was the tip of the iceberg. Most have no idea how most pass their entry tests or make it pass the training.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
Boeing really needs to introduce standardized writing, reading, and math tests for all direct and contract hires. The testing doesn't need to be high level, just enough to prove a candidate is capable of learning the job requirements. To stop people from cheating or having others interview for them, new hires should take a proctored exam with government-issued IDs before an offer letter is sent out.
I know of several people from the Renton site who reportedly cheated and are now up in Everett. I didn't report it at the time because I only overheard it and lacked physical proof, though I did strictly warn one individual to stop.
Agree that this issue is just the tip of the iceberg because Boeing lacks a rigorous vetting process.We recently had a supposed "software engineer" who admitted he didn't know what he was doing and constantly asked how to navigate CMES on day one. He eventually failed out, which is exactly why we need better screening. We all figured he lied to us saying he was a software engineer. I’m sure he told the same sap story during the Boeing interview process.
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u/airmech1776 2d ago
I think Boeing is using the training in place of the screening you suggest. They definitely need a better way to screen for English proficiency though.
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u/Rainyfeel 3d ago
What is PDD final exit ?
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u/poopitypong 3d ago
I think it's a class for IAM 751 members to be able to read the production drawings - Production Drawings / Data or something? I have no idea why you'd cheat on that, it's incredibly easy.
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u/Ryunokuz 3d ago
Its a series of tests in order to 'graduate', some people take 6 exit exams and some take 3. They encompass, drawings, psds, CMES, Electrical, i think Tech data and BPI if I remember correctly. I only had to take 3.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
Yes it was incredibly easy. I’m not sure why they gave us 4 lives to go through the entire training. I heard in Everett you only get 2.
In any case I finished all 4 exams within a few hours because navigating and finding answers or even being able to read engineering drawings didn’t come as surprise.
Boeing does a good job of training you and teaching you that stuff throughout the 8 weeks of training. Being in electrical we had a longer journey than the mechanical folks.
However, sadly it was a 50% turnout for our group as 3 of the other electrical folks didn’t make it. Only 3 survive.
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u/YMBFKM 2d ago
For all the online training -- ethics, insider trading, computing security, etc -- many people have discovered that if you select the ADA version of the training in a 2nd browser tab, you get access to a document version of the training module that you can do quick "find" commands to take them to where the answers to every test question can be found. A 90 minute training module and test can be completed with 100 correct answers in about 5-10 minutes.
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u/Thin_Firefighter_693 2d ago
Someone needs to submit a ‘speak up’ for this so it can get investigated and fixed. That sounds like a problem for sure.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
If this is just the web base training you are speaking of it’s stupid to have to cheat thru that. It’s not even graded.
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u/Tigerpaw_240550 3d ago
It’s a final exit exams after the new hires completed the training in FTC before they can report to the shop floor.
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u/Rckn-Metal 3d ago
Ok, I have been around for a hot minute. But what is FTC and PDD in this reference?
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u/GratefulnaLover 3d ago
To be honest I don’t know what PDD stands for it’s just what FTC refers to as their final exams. It’s a series of exit exams that consist of CMES, psds, redars, engineering drawings, just depends on your job code etc.
FTC is foundational training center. Can’t miss it inside of Boeing facilities. It’s also where we get our recerts done and labs, etc or ert classes.
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u/Rckn-Metal 3d ago
I see now. I was thinking FTC was Federal Trade Commision with a reference to cheating being insider trading.
PDD is Product Data Definition. Which is all of the items (drawings, PSDS, and CMES) use to build the product being worked on.
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u/Gerbert946 2d ago edited 2d ago
Part of the problem is that our education system, especially at the collegiate level, has operated on broken metrics and open cheating for many years (decades). The publish or perish requirement at research universities created an atmosphere were profs take credit as primary authors on papers their grad students write. Peer reviewed papers are routinely not reviewed because of the volume, which has resulted in a veritable flood of retracted papers every year, even by the more prestigious journals. In the business sector, selling crap products as though they were high quality has become so common that enshitification has become a commonly used term. Then there is the whole tech sector and their targeted advertising. There are also a couple of monster frauds that are accepted as standard in corporate governance and the equity markets. In politics ... well that one needs no explanation. In religion, covering up the deeds of misbehaving clergy was routine for at least a century, probably a lot longer than that. Ethics is a never ending battle. It's discouraging at times, but one must never give up the fight.
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u/Commercial-Honey721 3d ago edited 3d ago
integrity starts with management. So many managing personnel is not being held accountable for their actions it’s pathetic. Im unsure of the PDD exam in your area but the one in the non-Union area is useless. If he/she is cheating during the PDD, they won’t last a month on the production floor. They should have been released immediately. Secondly, management is so corrupt , if he is a kid of on of the executives they are definitely not getting fire. No one should escape accountability because of who you are related to. Yet, this is what Boeing management is becoming. I have watched a young lady lost her livelihood because her team lead didn’t like her. I have watch 2 ranking managers and a team lead gather random people to write statements to get this 24yr old fired. 3 months later, I watched the same crew of managers helped a team lead who had pushed an employee out of anger and watched them cover it up for her because of the friendship with them . The young lady who was pushed got suspended for stalking . They got 5 random people as usual to document the stalking because ethics never allow you to face your accuser so they get away with the statement as facts and all 5 statements were lies by friends of the lead. If I didn’t witnessed it myself I would have never believed it. I reached out to ethics and asked them to pull footage from the days of the lead statement because everything was fraudulent. It was a made up story to save the lead job. I hate when a person in charge of others become dishonest. I’m currently looking for another position because I totally lost all respect for the Boeing manager and lead in my area.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
I am sorry you are dealing with that. Nobody should have to walk on eggshells at work, and you definitely did the right thing by speaking up.
I would do the exact same thing if I witnessed it. It is frustrating when people protect their friends at work even when those friends are completely in the wrong. I actually had to tell one guy to stop talking to me about cheating, and I warned him that he would not like the consequences if he ever brought it up again. That group ended up cheating their way into roles at the Everett plant. It is unfortunate, but people without real talent or skills eventually get exposed.
It is hard to believe someone cannot read a basic drawing or locate a screw on a blueprint. It was incredibly frustrating to sit next to one of them in manufacturing skills class. They drilled holes incorrectly and put parts together completely backward and upside down. The class was not graded, but it showed how completely unqualified they really are. I think the instructor thought they were my friend since I helped so much that he didn’t fail them for unsafe behavior, just a lot of warnings.
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u/GreatDad13 3d ago
I feel like there are individuals who feel FTC isn’t to be taken seriously. I personally take it seriously and do my best to retain everything I can to pass the PDD exams for my code. I will say the process needs attention as well as the study material to prep for PDD exams. I am coming in on week 4 so we will see.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
Oh that’s great! Trust me the whole process and training is easy. I took notes when the instructor was lecturing but also asked questions where I needed them. I’m going to miss training because I’m going to miss my friends I made along the way. Some of them are already in Everett. These are the good ones not the cheaters but sadly some cheaters did make it to Everett. Like another poster said, they will eventually get removed from the floor.
What job code are you and where will you be working?
I will say this. Boeing is forever evolving and so is the curriculum to how it’s being presented and how it’s being taught. I commend Boeing for even doing all this as I heard from seniors they never did anything remotely close to this during their time.
I guess Boeing got fed up with all the incompetence on the floor they needed to weed them out. Trust me, life is easier when you work with smart people or you go thru life with a smart partner or friends. 😅
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u/GreatDad13 2d ago
That’s good to hear! I am 51406 in Everett.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
Oh nice! Best wishes to you in Everett, that plant is huge!!!
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u/GreatDad13 2d ago
Left a Work from home job to a 15-20 minute walk just to get inside the factory from the parking lot. It is an impressive place to be.
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u/GreatDad13 2d ago
What’s your code and where are you headed?
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u/GratefulnaLover 1d ago
30104, headed to Renton but I’m here now so really I’m going no where 😂. I can’t wait to hit the floor and see if everything I learned translate. Most likely I’ll be learning a lot more from my senior vets or lead and manager.
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u/torchen1 2d ago
I don’t know if you’re talking about a specific test but I just went through 2 months of training to work as a wire assembler and it was the most disorganized BS I’ve ever seen. I don’t blame the instructors but whoever is designing training should be assigned to something else. I made it through without failing any hands on or written tests BUT I can see why someone would want to cheat, they hire people for this job before telling them that if they “fail” the training they will be let go. And that’s after making us wait 2 months doing random BS on the shop floor because there was NO ROOM in classes. They have also outsourced their instructors so half of them have never even touched product. Just unacceptable from a company the size of Boeing.
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u/AreaBackground5339 5h ago
Welcome to the wire shop. I’ve been there 10 years it’s only gotten worse. It’s called the sweatshop for a reason. If you’re worth a grain of sand, You’ll be expected to do more and more while the guy next to you spends a week on one connector. Get out as soon as you can.
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u/torchen1 3h ago
I’m here because they called me back first after being laid off from my office job. I will leave the second I’m offered above $80k.
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u/airmech1776 2d ago
To be fair, failing the same class more than once takes a kind of ineptitude that should never be allowed to touch an airplane. And Boeing only kicks people out for failing three times! If you have even the most basic grasp of English, none of these tests will give you trouble.
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u/torchen1 3h ago
You don’t get to fail a class 3 times.
1st fail of ANY test (hands on or written) - meeting with your manager to discuss what happened
2nd fail - CAM
3rd fail - CAM and 1 day LWOP
4th fail - termination and blacklisted from Boeing.
They actually encouraged people with 3 fails to resign and reapply.
I found it easy but there are plenty of people who struggled with either written due to language barriers or the hands on because it has to be 100 percent and they don’t tell you what you messed up on.
It really doesn’t match how being on the floor is at all.
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u/airmech1776 3h ago
Right, so you can fail 3 times and still not get fired, you have to fail 4 times lol.
All our technical information, IPs, drawings, everything is written in English. If you cant pass a test after having everything explicitly laid out for you the same day, you have no business working on our airplanes, full stop. Just my experience, but the instructors I had were all more than happy to explain and show you what you did wrong on the practical. That is, if they could tell you were really trying.
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u/GratefulnaLover 1d ago
You are right about having instructors who haven’t been on the floor ever however the curriculum is only there as a guiding principle. I never memorized any of the specs but I know enough to speak on its behalf. Over time I’ll probably eventually memorize everything with repetition.
I don’t think Boeing ever expected us to memorize everything but more so how to find an answer. The instructional designers didn’t do a perfect job but they did what they could as there are so many courses. Things take a long time to make changes. We are Boeing, a huge moving train and that train can’t always pivot or stop when it wants to.
I feel like the course work was just the fundamentals. Enough for us to understand and get certified for certain course work. We aren’t going to guess on the floor. We are suppose to follow specifications and our IPs per the engineering drawings. Like I remember things about pressurized zones and unpressurized zones, what I need to torque things down to on certain clamps. Or how far I need to tie the wire bundles apart. Or what wire ties to us or what tools I need. What the difference between CM1 and CM3 is and the solvents I need to be using and how to solvent clean. Mind you I have no aerospace background and came from operations/IT. But it was enough for me to understand the foundations so that I have a concept and can grasp what it is we are doing.
Will I be good on the floor on day 1, I don’t know? Hard to say but, I think I know enough to hold my own and eventually be able to help the team.
If I ever need to speak up on behalf of Boeing to let the FAA auditor know how I am to do my job and where I go to find the specifications to do the job, I can do that with 100% confidence. That’s what I feel like my instructors taught me or what the course work outlined.
That I was trained enough, where I don’t think I would cause Boeing financial harm, I won’t hurt myself and or others (Go4Zero right!), and that I do a damn perfect job per the specs. If not I’ll turn myself in and own up to my mistakes… that’s the most important part.
18 months… then the sky is the limit. I’ve already tested green for a bunch of ERT things so when my time comes hopefully, I’ll get into a department where I can really make a difference but, I have a feeling where I’m going right now, I’ll be able to make an immediate impact... hopefully 🤞.
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u/Lopsided_Mud1712 2d ago
You are assuming integrity, competence. Honesty etc are meaningful at BCA.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
They handled the issue by firing the entire group involved in the cheating.
Being publicly walked off the floor must have been intensely humiliating. The work is easy and the exams are even easier to justify cheating, and their actions only proved their own incompetence and brought embarrassment to their themselves, their friends and families.
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u/airmech1776 2d ago
It seems to me, the Union is the reason they kept their job for a while after that. You said so yourself.
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u/GratefulnaLover 1d ago
The situation was highly demoralizing for us, especially seeing the individuals involved remain on the floor.
Immediately after the Union intervened on his behalf, the employee returned and behaved unprofessionally toward one of my favorite instructors, boasting how he bet the instructor didn’t ever think he’ll be back. Why do that? That display of no accountability, remorse or humility is shameful. Rumor has it he was tied to whoever it was he had in corporate. Shameful, they need to ban that person from ever referring any one of these clowns again into Boeing. While he claimed he recorded the PDD to assist others, this action compromised all of our integrity.
True mentorship involves guiding colleagues to find the right resources, not handing them the answers. I have another post where I actually helped an individual on a Saturday on my day off to help him pass. People said don’t do it!!! Well I did it! You don’t have to cheat for them. The guy eventually passed what he failed and even passed his hands on capstone. However, he still has an uphill battle and I won’t be there to help anymore, since I’m all done.
While I still know second hand a bunch of cheaters, I lack physical evidence or I would have turned them in. I don’t give a F if you think I’m a snitch, I don’t ever want my love ones riding on no airplane being made by a bunch of goofies who don’t even know how to read engineering drawings. Those that cheated, you know damn well who are and eventually those things all catch up to you. You better pray your bar is an easy one and you’re doing the same thing over and over and have it memorized down to a science! That the engineering drawings never have any sort of changes ever and the FAA don’t ever come and randomly audit you…forever run and hide in the bathrooms like the cowards you are. You know damn well who you are.
I’m sorry, I just get heated about this because I have family or others who have a degrees also and can’t get into Boeing but they let these type of clowns in!
Fortunately, the Ethics department successfully investigated and corrected this issue.
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u/Free_Director2809 3d ago
No wolves in sheepskin...got it. Only 2 headed snakes should be allowed? Because there are a million of those. Don't get your hopes up on integrity, you'll be sorely disappointed. As far as those "training" proctors...most of them have absolutely no understanding of the test they're giving, most have never worked in a manufacturing setting, some are just warm bodies that were hired to fill a spot. Many of the people you're probably going to be working with are in the same boat. If you're going to be a snitch, I don't recommend it...let it be about something you've witnessed that could result in a breach of safety to themselves, you, anyone, passengers....ANYONE. Report it right away, it's actually your job to maintain safety and protect the company's reputation. You've got alot to learn, don't make test cheaters your priority. Save that for the shop floor. Goody2shoes
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
Hold up a minute. What the heck are you talking about? If we don’t stop the cheaters before they hit the floor who knows what they are willing to do on the floor? If they are cheating on what appears to be SpongeBob square pants tests you think they won’t Mickey Mouse a bunch of work and hide it???
QA can only check so much and find so much.
You’re insane for even having this kind of take or talk.
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u/BoringBob84 2d ago
If you're going to be a snitch, I don't recommend it.
... because a culture of incompetence, cheating, and covering it up will work out so well for Boeing. /sarcasm
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u/TheRedditAppSucccks 3d ago
Yes I agree there should be tests that all employees need to pass to prove their capable of doing their jobs. Including engineers. Why do they have zero required tests? I’ve seen engineers over the years that absolutely have no idea what they are doing and it’s terrifying.
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
The fk you mean we do have an assessment
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u/TheRedditAppSucccks 2d ago
What is it? I’ve never seen the engineers I work with take any assessment?
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Bruh I just did 90 minutes math quiz panel interview and coding assessment 💀💀. Also we went to college and did calculus 3, physics and chemistry. The fk u mean we dont have assessment. 4 years of torture. Im in cyber we do have certification renewal exam and continous evaluation as well.
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u/TheRedditAppSucccks 2d ago
I’m talking about design engineers.
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Idk what chu mean, my mechanical engineer coworker from previous company failed job interview for design engineer at boeing. He worked as general eletric before coming in. If there isnt an assessment, how do they separate 200 different people for 1 req. For level 1 they dont expect you to know shit, only degree. Senior level or above, you definitely should know job in and out. Unless the manager is really bad and not screen people properly.
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u/blueghost2 2d ago
What assessment? And when do you take one? This is the first I've heard of one... Is it external hires only?
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Both external and internal. They have codevue assessment and 90 minutes interview now.
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u/blueghost2 2d ago
So this is a software engineer assessment?
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
Yes engineer had assessment, why do you think an engineer degree took 4-5 years to get. They test your knowledge during the interview not after. 🤦🤦
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u/blueghost2 2d ago
An engineering degree taking that long has nothing to do with why we take an assessment. I've interviewed for jobs for design engineer, stress engineer, systems engineer, project engineer and never had to take an assessment. I've also helped interview for filling in head count and was restricted to star questions, not allowed to give an "assessment". None of them required assessments which is why I asked if you were software. That is one of the only engineers that i have not seen an interview for. And your acting like software engineers are the only defacto engineer is what's confusing me.
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u/ConsciousPriority108 2d ago
?? That is because some engineer jobs in aerospace had a very low barrier of entry. All the job you listed above, if you try automotive and semiconductor firm. They have math assessment and real world scenario. Idk what are you trying to get at here. They do have assessment for engineer. It will be depending on the manager and the company. I have friend who is design engineer tried to get job at boeing from general dynamic. He failed the interview because he couldn't answer math question.
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u/GratefulnaLover 2d ago
Well, I think because engineers have a degree. Boeing is assuming that the accredited colleges have passed these folks for the real world but in reality they could have cheated all the thru college. Who knows…
I know me and my high school friends did it to an extent but we were all smart enough. We would talk about the theorems and what proofs to use to solve during breaks. Or what questions were on the physics test to prepare for it. Same with Math and Science classes.
It wasn’t like someone blatantly wrote out the answers and pass it around. We just knew ahead of time what to study for.
Anyways all of us graduated, some went on to be dentists, financial traders, and here I am at Boeing after a long career in IT/Ops, I get to reinvent myself and work with my hands on planes. Kind of like Chandler Bing when he quit his statistical analysis and data reconfiguration job to go into marketing. I figure after I serve my time I’ll be able to really do something even cooler.
Cooler than electrical assembly? Yes, even way cooler! 😎
Thankfully I have the coolest and most understanding wife ever!!!
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u/BoringBob84 2d ago
Why do they have zero required tests?
The interview process absolutely includes a panel of people grilling the candidate on their knowledge and experience.
I’ve seen engineers over the years that absolutely have no idea what they are doing and it’s terrifying.
Sometimes, when we think that other people are making mistakes, they have good reasons for doing it that way and we are just not aware of those reasons.
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u/Karzaad 3d ago
PDD - Product Definition Data, this is the released engineering that we build our planes from. Think airplane blueprints.
This is the very definition of proprietary information and should never be put at risk.