r/dune • u/kenblumkin • 7d ago
Dune (novel) Question about Count Frenning
So I finished book 1 again after decades and read messiah a month ago. So at the end of book one Paul asks who he is to lady Jessica and he says he couldn't see his actions on any times lines thou he exists. Does the count have prescient powers like a navigator or conduct all acts for the emperor with one to conceal his doing?
67
u/Eikon-Basilike-1649 7d ago
The first book explains that Fenring was an almost-but-not-quite Kwisatz Haderach. He was a failed dead-end of the Bene Gesserit breeding project. That’s why he’s a genetic eunuch. By being a potential KW, he muddies the waters of Paul’s prescience.
13
u/dsmith422 7d ago
Fenring is a failed Kwisatz Haderach, so yes he has some limited prescient powers. Those powers may simply be limited to being unobservable by those with true prescience. Herbert never explores the idea further with Fenring. As explained in Dune Messiah, those with prescient powers cannot see each other in possible future timelines. This is why Guild Navigator Eldric is all the meetings of the conspirators. He shields the meetings from being seen by Paul and Alia.
11
u/Significant_Snow_937 7d ago
There's not really any indication that Fenring is prescient; as others have said, he's a dead end in the Breeding Program, but there's nothing to indicate that he's got prescience; the info we are given is simply that he's immune to prescience. So this next part is going to have some spoilers for Children and God Emperor of Dune
But Fenring's invisibility to prescience is actually incredibly important. In Children, Farad'n is revealed to be related to Fenring, and is described in very much the same way that Paul is, by Jessica no less. By the end of the book, Farad'n is wedded to Leto's sister, and in God Emperor Leto spends the next 3500 years breeding and training their offspring until eventually, one named Sionna is born that is also invisible to prescience. This ability is precisely the intended result, a gene that would allow her to hide from prescient searchers without having the power herself, since every book is pretty clear on how much of a curse and severe problem that ability is.
4
u/Charly_030 6d ago
He blocked prescience. The only people that can do that at this point were other oracles. HE also lived on Dune so his abilities were probably activated by the spice. Speculation of course.
11
u/funkyavocado 7d ago
He has some level of innate prescience, yes. That's why Paul can't see him.
He's considered a KH candidate, and only technically failed due to his infertility to pass on his genes from what info about him we know.
9
u/sabedo 7d ago
Because he’s a eunuch he’s a failed KH and invisible to prescience which is extremely important as time goes on. Another life toyed with before his birth by the Bene Gesserit. Paul realized that many timelines leading to his death was due to the Count, who was his superior in skill and Paul was exhausted at that point, so his death was certain had they fought
1
2
u/kenblumkin 7d ago
Its literally the last part of the book. I must have read it to fast lol. Thanks for the responses though I appreciate it
3
u/Kkcz86 7d ago
Fenring was a part of the Bene Gesserit breeding program and was one of the Kwisatz Haderach candidates, but was crippled by his being a genetic eunuch. Fenring's talent concentrated into furtiveness and inner seclusion, and rendered him invisible to prescient vision, even to the prescience of someone as powerful as Paul Muad'Dib
3
u/FatherFenix 7d ago
Count Fenring was another potential KH. He has some prescience, similar to Paul before the water of life, and this makes him an anomaly to other prescient beings. However, he’s a genetic eunuch, meaning he can’t carry his KH genetics onward, making him a failed branch of the BG experiment. He’s considered a powerful noble of the Imperium, but a dead end as far as the BG are concerned.
He’s still powerful and could likely rival Paul as a fighter during the events of Dune if he chose, but he saw that opposing Paul would’ve been pointless by that time. The two share a silent bond since there aren’t any others like them, and Fenring basically sits out the events rather than actively oppose Paul.
Bummer he was omitted from the new movies. I get why - like LOTR, no realistic way to include everything and everyone - but still would’ve been cool.
1
u/SaddestFlute23 6d ago
The SyFy channel mini series is still the only adaptation to include Fenring
1
u/Charly_030 6d ago
He lived on Dune with Lady Fenring, so he probably had a lot of spice intake. The fact he blocked Paul's prescience suggests he had it himself in some fashion
1
u/Ecstatic-Mastodon-15 5d ago
Everyone has already pointed out he was a failed KH but I was honestly surprised he never reappeared in later books. Did Frank Herbert just forget about him? Was he eliminated for being so close to the former emperor? Did he take himself into exile in fear of Paul? I don't have any answers.
1
u/gleamingfall 5d ago
it always strikes me from the book , how in public Fenring was vague , and mumbled and seemed ineffective to casual observation but it was entirely an act. he was one of the truly dangerous characters in the story.
1
u/banie01 Yet Another Idaho Ghola 2d ago
The count is a failed Kwisatz Haderach.
As such, he has a huge amount of the genetic potential of the KH and like Guild Navigators, people who have the genetic propensity to be potential KH's may (in my head canon) be invisible to other prescient beings.
Their absence from prescient vision means that they move unobserved.
Paul cannot "see" Guild Navigators and other prescient people in his visions, nor can they see him.
Instead the results of their actions are apparent to both, but not their plans, motivations or immediate conspirators during planning phases.
It's a trait that may well be what drives a part of the plot in God Emperor.
Leto II parlays Fenring's invisibility to prescience into his breeding programme
1
1
u/AEUG_Quattro Fremen 7d ago edited 7d ago
Fenring is a failed KH due to him being a eunuch and to some level he has innate prescience which renders him almost invisible to Paul’s sight
Edit: he is a generic eunuch*
3
u/Deweymaverick 7d ago
He’s not lacking in sex organs… either he can’t have kids or he can’t pass on the necessary genes.
3
101
u/MishterJ 7d ago
That’s my favorite passage in the novel honestly. To answer your question, yes, Count Fenring has prescience, not like a navigator saturated in spice, but like Paul. Fenring is a failed KH candidate and part of the BG breeding program. He’s a failure because he’s a genetic eunuch, unable to pass on his KH-ness to offspring. Count Fenring likely could have killed Paul in a duel and likely one of the few, **if only**, people in the universe who was capable of doing so. It would have been a close fight to say the least. But Fenring could see the jihad, he realized that killing Paul would stop nothing. If Fenring beat Paul in a duel, the Fremen Fedyakin would have killed the Emperor, slaughtered everyone the emperor’s party in that room, and launched the jihad without Paul. Paul’s reputation as Lisan Al-gaib would be solidified and he would be their martyr and their symbol. Alia would likely have taken over as Empress once she was old enough. Fenring saw all of this and refused to die for nothing, AND he felt compassion and comraderie for Paul, and Paul felt it and felt compassion and brotherhood towards Fenring. Paul realized in that moment that out of everyone in the universe, THIS man who he had never seen before in his visions, likely had the closest experience to him. So yes, Fenring was hidden from Paul due to his prescience, and their understanding came from both being KH candidates.