r/gaming • u/Miserable_Phase_2519 PC • 10h ago

Dwarf Fortress' creator says the industry's in shambles over AI and layoff-happy CEOs: 'Everyone I know, their bosses are slowly getting psychosis'

https://www.pcgamer.com/gaming-industry/dwarf-fortress-creator-says-the-industrys-in-shambles-over-ai-and-layoff-happy-ceos-everyone-i-know-their-bosses-are-slowly-getting-psychosis/
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u/Urist_Macnme 10h ago edited 10h ago

Tarn is a GOAT

He slaved away for years just making the game that he wanted to make, never expecting to make “all the money”. And through sheer persistence and dedication, he’s made millions, and had a huge influence on the entire gaming landscape.
Without him, there would be no Minecraft.

I regularly made donations to Dwarf Fortress, even when it was a free game; because it was the game I wanted him to make too.

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u/Kenshirosan 9h ago

Dude survived off donations and selling crayon drawings of DF creatures to supporters and let me tell you I bought the steam version minute one, because if anyone willing to do that for 25 years doesn't deserve support, I'm not sure who does.

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u/Urist_Macnme 9h ago

I am the proud owner of one of said Crayon Drawings. It’s one of my most prized possessions.

You have no idea how happy a crayon drawing of a pink dinosaur (one of my most memorable Forgotten Beasts) makes me.

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u/Longjumping_Pen_2102 9h ago

And this to me is the biggest argument for why AI art isnt art.

You care more about a fairly bad crayon drawing than you ever will about an AI image because if the relationship between art and artist.

The whole point of art is that its an expression of something.

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u/Handsome_ketchup 2h ago

You care more about a fairly bad crayon drawing than you ever will about an AI image because if the relationship between art and artist.

Someone I know is into arts and crafts, and refuses to hear that what they consider to be their "worst" works are actually the best. Why? Because the good ones are nice but somewhat generic, and the "bad" ones are full of personality and charm. They capture your eye and invite you on a journey.

Art is not just technical competence, it's about the story it tells you. The technical side may or may not support the telling of that story. Some of the best games are pretty disastrously made, but that's not the point, and at times can even enhance the charm.

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u/Saint_of_Grey 2h ago

And this to me is the biggest argument for why AI art isnt art.

I've always considered it bootlegging. You get the visuals without any of the other things behind them, it just ain't legit.

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u/vimdiesel 1h ago

Also a great argument about why DRM is backwards. People were actively seeking ways to pay the dude for a free game.

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u/Kenshirosan 9h ago

Many a late night hour was spent staring at ASCII and I'm very happy for them finding success.

My favorite forgotten beast is was this like giant naked mole rat looking one that I kept locked in the lowest part of the caves that single handedly killed like 6 other FBs and also one incredibly unlucky cave raiding event that spawned on the border of the map it shared with the monster.

Made for good entertainment though. 

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u/GrimDallows 5h ago

My favourite forgotten beast was one made of water, who poped like a bubble on the way to my fortress by one random bee.

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u/Kenshirosan 5h ago

Did the bee get a tomb worthy of a slayer of ancient terrors?

At the very least I would demand a stone carving of a bee laughing at the forgotten beast.

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u/GrimDallows 4h ago edited 3h ago

Sadly, no, my fortress was a mess back then. A guy in a strange mood killed a ghost and then bricked and went insane. Things got downhill from there pretty fast.

EDIT:

The explanation of the bug:

Dwarves can enter a "trance" state where they gather materials and create a treasure randomly. If they fail to gather the materials to craft their work of art then they go insane but if they do it is a priceless artifact.

There are multiple types of "strange" moods. Fey and Secretive moods just make your dwarf make a thing (Secretive means he hides what he is making). Possessed means a ghost took over him, and the dwarf will not recall anything he did. A Macabre mood uses bones, etc to make art.

A -Fell- mood happens only in stressed dwarves. They will kill a citizen and use their body to craft something, then move on with their lives.

In my case a dwarf got a Fell mood, and he locked into a ghost that was passing by and killed him. Dead ghosts leave no corpses, so the Fell mood dwarf couldn't craft anything, nor kill another guy, and slowly went insane and then picked up an axe and started killing people.

This was all very weird, as the dead "Ghost of Urist McBooze" then spawned a "Ghost of the Ghost of Urist McBooze". I then buried the corpse of Urist McBooze, who had drowned in a river, to put it to rest. However as the "Corpse of Urist McBooze" was not the "Corpse of the Ghost of Urist McBooze", I couldn't bury him to put the squared ghost to rest and it kept haunting my fortress.

Things kind of spiraled downwards from there.

For the record, if this happens to you and lack a corpse, you can do a wireless exorcism by just setting up a tombstone with it's name. But make sure it is to the name of the murdered GHOST not the old living guy.

Not the weirdest thing that has happened to me in Dwarf Fortress, but it ranks up in the list. Probably second.

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u/Urist_Macnme 4h ago edited 2h ago

My very first encounter with a megabeast; a wandering plains titan in the form of a Giant RibbonWorm made of Water. My woodcutter was at the map edge where it spawned. One swipe in the combat log, and it disappeared . I was very confused at first, till I noticed the puddle of water where it died.

I then felt guilty at having slaughtered such a wondrous creature from the time before time.

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u/ihileath 2h ago

I really need to finally properly learn and play this game

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u/GrimDallows 1h ago

The steam release is quite straight forward.

It's more a vocabulary check than anything at this point.

Like, yes, there are some mechanics here and there that are supposed to be the challenge, like being invaded by goblins when your fortress is barely up, but other than that it's just some ABCs of "do" and "dont" and just some knowledge of industrial chain production.

  • Basically stay low on fortress wealth to avoid attacks early on.
  • Starting in the wilds will cause animal stampedes (sieges) routinely, which can be turned into a source of meat, bones, leather, etc.
  • Volcanos are bad. Lava can spawn enemies in it, which can start fires; even if a lava powered station is something theoretically good.
  • Clay is weird, and iirc infinite.
  • Vampires will murder boat your fortress. It used to be possible to keep an undead vampire in a locked room as a never sleeping bookeeper, but it was nerfed and now they require booze or they will slow down to a crawl.
  • Wereanimals are the same thing more or less.
  • A constant source of water is important.
  • Water has preasure, and you can cause a flood if you design some waterworks wrong regarding height.
  • Water fountains which create mist as a "good mood" generation engine.

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u/Seve7h PC 1h ago

The number 1 rule of Dwarf Fortress is to have FUN

But if the Carp stands up, flee

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u/thatsabingou 8h ago

Aww man can we see it?

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u/MarkdownUpdog 8h ago

I I am the proud owner of one of said Crayon Drawings.

I hope it's of the highest craftsdwarfship?

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u/a404notfound 6h ago

I have one as well, framed above my monitor. "This is a masterwork crayon drawing of two dwarves. The dwarves are playing chess. The The art menaces with spikes of gems."

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u/GradeAPrimeFuckery 5h ago

Here's mine:

Now for your ASCII Art Reward by Threetoe:

,..||+!+=+@|,..?

I went with a story instead of a pic and got ASCII art as a bonus. The story:

Beneath the temple, deep in the twisting catacombs, Sylstar dwelt in eternal darkness. The outside of his sarcophagus was covered in painted charms meant to keep evil at bay. It had been two hundred years since the wary peasants had put him here, casting him down at the moment of glory.

The citizens of Ramthar had always been suspicious of the old wizard. He lived in a stone building at the edge of town, the roof of which was invariably covered with carrion birds. Inside, Sylstar worked at his laboratory, but no earthly science could save him. A week ago he had made an offering to the goddess of time, and she had told him his life was coming to an end.

Papers, quills, and other glass objects cascaded off the desk as Sylstar thrashed his arms about in frustration. Breathing hard, he collapsed into his seat. If science could not help him achieve immortality, and the goddess turned her back on him, what was left for him? As if the night had heard his thoughts, a scratching came to his window. Sylstar threw open the shutters but all he could see was cold darkness.

“Come outside, Sylstar,” came a sinister voice, “and live undead forever in the night.”

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u/errorsniper 4h ago

You cant say that and not share. Its illegal.

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u/InvadingEngland 9h ago

I could never quite get into DF but I loved the stories and the programming. I purchased day 1 because it's brought me loads of entertainment over the years even if I only put in 20-odd hours of play time. Fascinating game, good people, why wouldn't you support what they're doing?

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u/Cloud_Motion 7h ago

Pretty much the same here. I really respect it and I still regularly read the stories posted. But I played a bunch on the steam version to the point I got 3 forts back to back to what I'd consider endgame, and I just thought it was quite boring compared to something like rimworld.

Still, tons of respect to the devs. Their YouTube diaries are great watches too.

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u/Urist_Macnme 7h ago

If you think you’ve reached the end game, dig deeply and greedily.

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u/Cloud_Motion 6h ago

Haha yeah the ancient dangers, crazy immortal massive worms and stuff were good fun.

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u/Manae 6h ago

If all you have seen are forgotten beasts in ancient caverns, keep going. Eventually you will heap praise upon the miners.

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u/Blackstone01 5h ago

Yeah, it's a fair bit too complicated for me to really get too far into. I like Rimworld and play that a lot, but DF was a step too far, which is a shame because it seems like it's really fun if you can get into it.

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u/Wise-Dust3700 8h ago

Same, as soon as it hit steam I bought it. So many hours spent in that lovely game. Owe the devs a pint too if they ever come to Ireland :)

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u/SomeDumbDoggo 6h ago

same. the OG version was always a bit too intimidating for me to pick up but i lived vicariously through the stories others shared online back in the day. was a day one purchase when it hit steam and i've sunk close to a thousand hours into it and enjoyed every one of them. can't think i can say that about any other game

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u/Dommccabe 4h ago

I also bought the Steam version the day it was released - played hours on the free version and wanted to contribute.

It was #1 best selling game for ages on steam.

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u/PantheraAuroris 4h ago

Tarn is lucky. He's skilled and devoted, but beyond that, he's one of the rare successes, and that's a lot of luck.

For every Tarn, there are a thousand devoted game devs who can't get their indie to take off. Dwarf Fortress is lightning in a bottle. You can't ask other solo devs to try to be him, because he has enough money to keep living the dream, and devs who didn't make a massive cult hit don't get to just starve their lives away for their passions until the money comes in. The money might never come in. They have to eventually bend. You can't expect them to survive off donations and crayon doodles because that is not a sustainable career, that's a miracle.

We need the games industry to be more stable. Devs need to be able to weather a low point in their career without getting laid off. Companies need to pay their devs through both the hits and flops. Art is like that; not everyone will like everything made.

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u/viperfan7 4h ago

I was so happy when I heard that DF would be for sale on steam.

Dude's earned all the money

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u/trib_ 10h ago

Tarn absolutely is the GOAT and deserves all the praise along with Zach, but in regards to the money they got for the Steam release, in the grand scheme of things it wasn't that much.

As Tarn pointed out, even though they did make millions with the Steam release, "when you divide that by 20 [years], you're kind of back down into normal tech salary range. Which is still pretty high, obviously."

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u/Urist_Macnme 10h ago

Yeah. But he’s doing what he loves, and there’s no sign of him stopping.

I’ve been playing since 2008, and still play it. And every time I play, I see something new I’ve never seen before.

When the steam release came around, I bought myself and three friends a copy; just to evangelise the game.
I’ve actually spent more on Dwarf Fortress than any other game: and that’s with no DLC or Microtransactions; just because I love the game so much.

He deserves all the success.

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u/prof_tincoa 9h ago

Relevant username lol The long wait might end this year!

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u/Urist_Macnme 3h ago

The long wait has been cut up into a series of short waits.
Myths & Magic is going to awesome.

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u/prof_tincoa 3h ago

I'm taking Myths and Magic as the official end of the long wait =P Because we can play it as we wait for the rest of the content. Though I confess I still haven't played the last update with the improved sieges and siege weapons.

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u/AnOnlineHandle 9h ago

How did they get by in those twenty years? Wasn't the game bringing in some kind of income then as well?

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u/Urist_Macnme 9h ago

It was a free game (and the basic ascii version is still free).
They survived purely from donations from players.

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u/LakyousSama 9h ago

And they only started a donation page some years later after Zach got sick and they needed money for treatment. They were doing it for nothing before that.

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u/geeiamback 8h ago

According to this interview from 2010 they've been taking donations since release in 2006:

PC Gamer: You rely on donations from the community to fund ongoing development. When did you reach the tipping point where you knew you could do that? How did that feel?

Tarn Adams: It was the summer after the first year of my math postdoc in 2006 when I decided I needed to focus on DF full-time, but we didn't really have hope for donations at that time. DF hadn't even been released yet. I was just thinking I'd burn off my savings for a year and then get a job. When the game was released in August, we were making around a thousand dollars a month, and that was enough to build some hope, and the average kept going up. There wasn't really a tipping point... or if there is, I still don't feel like I've reached it. This year has been good so far, but there was the unusual 19-month delayed release in April which led to a large bump. Now we're stabilizing back down around treading water again. It's good though, since I'm able to work on the game full-time as it stands, and that's satisfying.

https://www.pcgamer.com/community-heroes-tarn-adams-for-dwarf-fortress/

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u/beenoc 7h ago

They've always taken the donations. Zach's cancer scare is what made them start to look into a paid version.

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u/kalmah 9h ago

They were apparently living very frugally and moved back in with their parents at one point and by 2015 they had a Patreon that was pulling in more than 4K/month.

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u/colonelsmoothie 2h ago

Zach had a normal job. One time he got really sick and realized was lucky that he had health insurance. Tarn not having the same type of safety net was one of the main reasons for making the Steam release.

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u/Wild_Marker 9h ago

normal tech salary range. Which is still pretty high,

doesheknow.jpg

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u/ThreeHeadCerber 8h ago

It is high... if you can get one

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u/blender4life 2h ago

Yeah but now they got those millions in one month so even after they pay taxes if they plop it into the shittiest savings account at 2% they'll make 100k a month in interest.

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u/justly_silver 9h ago

His independence is why he can speak so openly about this stuff. No board of directors or shareholders breathing down his neck demanding line-go-up quarterly reports.

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u/Urist_Macnme 9h ago

Well, there is Kitfox, but they also have the right idea. Let these mad geniuses cook.

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u/memoriten 9h ago

He really is, and you can see the passion he has for the project. I keep donating even after the steam release.

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u/BicFleetwood 6h ago

Liberal Crime Squad is still one of the first things I put on a new PC.

I used it to benchmark my 5090.

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u/Calber4 6h ago

Legendary Game Developer

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u/Urist_Macnme 5h ago

Tarn Adams, Legendary Game Developer, has claimed a workshop and begins working furiously.

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u/Taraforming 9h ago

He is absolutely the GOAT just for making the game free. I’ve been astoundingly broke this year but I’ve been having a blast all summer with what’s now one of my favorite games all because he puts it up for free. Eventually when I have the money I’m going to buy the steam version even though I’m already used to the ascii.

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u/french_snail 6h ago

I met him a decade ago at a games convention in Busan, South Korea. He was very humble 

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u/CucumberOk8820 2h ago

Df is so cool. So many games fail but he's made something that falls into the legendary status, a pillar of gaming for the rest of time.

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u/awaiko 22m ago

I’m a filthy Mac user, and I’m sad that DF isn’t (easily) available on Mac yet - there are apparently workarounds, but they’re not straightforward. I know there were some plans to port it, but they’ve slipped to the right. It’ll be a purchase as soon as it’s ready :)

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u/Eta_Beta_3-14 8h ago

It's a pretty simple formula: Once you get more than one step removed from 'guy developing game for fun on his own time in his garage' the quality of a video game begins to decline exponentially with each step.

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u/Coyollo 7h ago edited 7h ago

Dwarf Fortress is getting worse? They have a publisher now and I'm pretty sure more people are working on the game with Tarn. Tarn and Zach are quite wealthy now since the game release on Steam. Like, in the millions wealthy

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u/Eta_Beta_3-14 7h ago

Dwarf Fortress was developed by a guy on his own time and, metaphorically, in his garage. I'm not sure how you drew the conclusion you're making from what I said.

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u/Coyollo 6h ago edited 5h ago

Dwarf Fortress is still in development, and it's taken a few steps away 'guy developing game for fun on his own time in his garage', and I asked if DF was getting worse.

So I was following the formula you wrote in your post

edit: They blocked me, I didn't think the formula was that big of a deal

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u/Crungus_McGrungus 6h ago

Personally I preferred the old-school keyboard only version and still play the pre-UI rework version but I've heard DF is still quite good.