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u/Vivid-Relief6316 21d ago
He shouldn't have to explain. The point of gantz was showing the animalistic nature of ppl. Its what made it stand out.
You cant police someone's artistic expression.
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u/Queasy_Hour_8030 20d ago
I agree with your sentiment but is it policing to just ask them why they feel compelled to include certain subject matter in their stories?
I feel like understanding artistic drive is interesting.
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u/Few-Improvement-5655 19d ago
I agree with your sentiment but is it policing to just ask them why they feel compelled to include certain subject matter in their stories?
If the underlying subtext is that they shouldn't, then a bit.
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u/BitterDepartment4181 20d ago
is it policing to just ask them why they feel compelled to include certain subject matter in their stories?
Just read the story and make your own conclusions, artist aren't the babysitters of those consuming the art, you should be able to make your own conclusions ?
Did the uncomfortable topics feel like they came out a place of malice or they serve a purpose in the story ?
Also, do you think depicting an evil guy doing an evil thing is endorsing said thing ?
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u/golfstreamer 20d ago
> Just read the story and make your own conclusions, artist aren't the babysitters of those consuming the art, you should be able to make your own conclusions ?
You didn't really answer his question at all, just insisted he shouldn't ask questions. There's nothing wrong with asking an artist to share their perspective when they introduce controversial elements in their art.
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u/AMANOFCULTUREBITCH 20d ago
Agreed, everyone has a different experience which makes them tend to formulate different opinions of said work.
It just ain't as much fun if the artist/writer spoonfeeds you everything
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u/Affectionate_Age5191 19d ago
So nothing can be critiqued bc it’s someone’s “creative expression” I’m not saying the critique is valid or misinterpretations can’t happen, but that part of your comment makes no sense.
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u/RevenantCommunity 21d ago
He’s right. The notion that this doesn’t exist is delusion fostered in certain spaces of Western society.
Racism DOES exist. The background factors that lead to it always will.
People can only truly overcome it by acknowledging and working through it, not pretending it doesn’t exist
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u/accents_ranis 20d ago
Noone ever but a racist ever said racism doesn't exist.
The argument is about whether or not racism is natural.
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u/WarSt0mp 17d ago
If by racism you mean people preferring their own well you're wrong. Everyone, even animals, naturally segregate each other based in-group preferences when there's no one around to tell them otherwise.
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u/accents_ranis 17d ago edited 17d ago
That is not racism.
edit
To elaborate. Racism is a concept where a person or group of people see themselves as above or better than another group of people due to race.Preferring to be among your own people has nothing to do with racism.
It is only when the reason for doing so is that you perceive yourself as above other races that it becomes racism.
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u/Senior_Independence4 21d ago
Isn't the point of the Izumi blackface to show he's completely tactless and doesn't mind egging on xenophobia as a red herring to save his own ass?
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u/oopsai 21d ago
I don't remember which parts were racist. Sure the dude disguised himself as a black guy but it was for disguise
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u/NoEcho3494 21d ago edited 21d ago
Izumi is very much supposed to be a bad person as well lol i actually do think the implication was supposed to be that izumi is racist in addition to being a mass killer.
At best he simply was indifferent about the xenophobia he was provoking by pinning his crimes on a racial minority and using racism to his advantage, further illustrating how selfish and uncaring he is
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u/grim1952 21d ago
I don't think Izumi was racist, I read it as you describe in your second paragraph. It's just a convenient disguise.
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u/hifuu1716 21d ago
or Oku was just feeling edgy lol. It's like you're providing a deeper response to "why was there a scene where Inaba bangs an alien in the shape of Reika." It's cause the author just wanted it in there, I think any attempt to add any kind of color to these kinds of scenes is doing a whole olympic's worth of leaps in logic. The question was why he can sometimes turn to these things in his writing, and the author responded with "well the real world has these things so it makes sense." It was a cop out answer for sure
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u/NoEcho3494 21d ago
I think that you are very much underrating Oku’s writing. He put a lot of thought into writing this manga, Izumi especially is an extremely well written character that gives the reader a lot to think about and very effectively expanded upon the themes Oku wanted to explore
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u/FireLunar 21d ago
I mean blackface is inherently racist, so
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u/jackaroojackson 21d ago
Doing blackface is inherently racist, depicting it is another thing altogether. Considering that A) it's a real false flag tactic wearing blackface to do a shooting having been done multiple times in real life in South Africa as part of the pro-apartheid movement and B) it's being done by one of the worst human beings in the series, I don't think the writer is taking any positive stand on the act.
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u/FireLunar 21d ago
Yeah, that's what I meant (your first point). I guess I needed to elaborate, ffs lol
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u/CephalonClem 21d ago edited 21d ago
I take it you think that even a mention of the practice is "inherently racist" as well and we should all pretend it was never a concept?
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u/FirstDarkMage 21d ago
When I read it, I didn't think much of it; I thought it was just an ordinary disguise—but I'm not American, so I didn't even know blackface existed.
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u/NoEcho3494 21d ago
It is just a disguise but it’s easy to conclude that Izumi chose that particular disguise because he is racist and/or wanted to provoke xenophobia
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u/hifuu1716 21d ago
or like most things in this manga Oku just wanted to be edgy. Why are we acting like that isn't a possibility
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u/NoEcho3494 21d ago
The point of the whole scene is to show how ruthless izumi is. In addition to committing a mass murder, he also pinned the crime on a racial minority, taking advantage of xenophobia in pursuit of his selfish goals. It did the job of establishing his character very effectively, it wasnt “just being edgy” it was using edginess in a very intentional way. Every reader understood exactly what kind of person Izumi is after this scene
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u/hifuu1716 21d ago
So you note the xenophobic environment in Japan, yet completely disregard the idea that maybe the author himself suffered from those same bias'....? Maybe, just maybe, Oku isn't dissecting a trope, he's just using it? Which is probably the definition of "being edgy." I mean look at the black guys who are in the mission right after the massacre. They're basically caricatures. The man has boobs in every goddamn chapter. A mass shooting follows all of this. The man likes the simpler things sometimes. I'm not saying Oku doesn't have grander themes in his writing but I think when you love a series enough you can explain just about everything. And this was definitely not "Izumi taking advantage of xenophobia to get away with a crime" moreso than it is "japanese mangaka has character paint himself black before committing mass shooting"
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u/NoEcho3494 21d ago
I have no idea why you think this. Seems like you just don’t like Gantz and want to shit on it and so are ignoring the obvious intentions behind the writing
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u/hifuu1716 21d ago
I think redditors in general have a problem seeing the difference between “criticizing” and “shitting on” in general so makes sense lol
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u/NoEcho3494 21d ago edited 21d ago
Well i mean your “criticisms” have no substance was my point. You are just pretending like elements that have clear purpose in the story don’t because you don’t like that the author is japanese and draws titties or something
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u/Yutagos_south 21d ago edited 21d ago
The only racism I see in Gantz is the blackface, but the author didn't use it to discriminate against Black people. He wanted to show how much of a piece of shit and a coward Izumi is, using racism and terrorism to achieve his goals even if it mean to throw into the fire an already discriminated ethnicity . If the autor was using this discriminize and throw shade i would agree but it's not the case . He just show cowards like him would gladly using racism to protect themselve from consequences .
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u/DiscussionSharp1407 21d ago
"Real life is obviously laced with prejudice, how can I be honest with myself by excluding it artificially from my art."
The world needs more of this. artistic integrity is rare.
I hate digging into western media and knowing exactly what kind of sanitized/preachy content I will get by just scanning through the cast, or knowing who the producer is.
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u/Jimmy9Toes 21d ago
Oku one of my fav authors. Even if theyre wild stories, they're very much grounded in human nature
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u/FirstDarkMage 21d ago
An American who thinks he's the center of the world—nothing new there...
Explanatio Blackface is a topic discussed only in the US; the rest of the world isn't familiar with the concept—the same applies to translations of the word "nigger," which doesn't carry the same context in other countries.
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u/NoEcho3494 21d ago
Izumi was exploiting xenophobia to his advantage, and was either indifferent or intended to provoke a wave of xenophobia by selecting that disguise. The whole situation is supposed to further illustrate how amoral izumi is. He doesn’t care about how his actions effect other people whatsoever, he is completely ruthless and willing to do anything in pursuit of his own selfish goals
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u/Yutagos_south 21d ago edited 21d ago
The blackface thing is particularly well known in countries that participated in the Atlantic slave trade, with things like the Banania imagery in France, foods such as “gâteau nègre,” and human zoos that were used to mock and dehumanize Black people. But now it's not the same most people especially the young ones know about it .
Yes, it’s true that the hard-R doesn’t carry the same weight from country to country. However, in many countries especially those that participated in the slave trade there is a racial slur that has historically been used to discriminate against Black people. Even if it doesn’t carry exactly the same weight as it does in the U.S who are the biggest offender , it is still a word that many people use, or have used a synonym in their language to discriminate. In that sense, the function is ultimately the same: to abuse and dehumanize so what you explain is irrelevent and disingenuous it's not only the US .
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u/FirstDarkMage 21d ago
I was thinking about our world, this poor, third-world world.
Yes, there are words that are used as insults against black people, but they are trying to criminalize the word "negro" in Latin America, cultural Americanization :(
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u/Yutagos_south 21d ago edited 21d ago
I don't know about “third-world countries.” I come from one in part too, since I'm African as well. If you insult anyone by calling them “negro” or using whatever racial slur is used against people from either the continent or the islands, you're 100% getting the belt . My mom is half-Spanish, so I go there a lot, and honestly spanish poeple are chill , it's a matter of context and country i guess. I know Argentinians can be pretty crazy about this too, for example.
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u/FirstDarkMage 21d ago
Yes, it depends on the country; in Peru, Brazil, and Colombia—I’m not sure about Argentina (those *boludos*)—"negro" wouldn't be an insult, but "cholo" or "crioulo" would be. What language do they speak in your African country?
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u/BitterDepartment4181 20d ago
In Italy it kinda already happened, the hard r one is still technically the adjective for a black skinned person the Treccani dictionary still has it, however due to cultural influences from the USA starting from the 50s it became a slur.
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u/RiennedeRienne 21d ago
Blackface is not only an American problem. It’s done in the Netherlands, Belgium, and other parts of Europe as well. Look up Zwarte Piet.
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u/FirstDarkMage 21d ago
I'm Latino; to me, the US and Europe are the same thing.
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u/VolcanicHare 21d ago
You can't make comments about somebody's ignorance while being this ignorant.
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u/FirstDarkMage 20d ago
It's a joke, because the US and Europe have the same policy of controlling and exploiting Third World countries.
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u/VolcanicHare 20d ago
Europe isn't a country
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u/FirstDarkMage 20d ago
But when I said that...
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u/VolcanicHare 20d ago
By implying that Europe as a whole has a policy
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u/FirstDarkMage 20d ago edited 20d ago
Neocolonialism and the European Union NATO and Western Geopoliticside
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u/samisaywhat 21d ago
I think it’s disingenuous to say the topic is only discuss in the US. You’re commenting on a post that shows the author clearly understood the weight of putting his character in blackface.
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u/PerceptionEast6026 21d ago
The n word has the same context in other countries
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u/craeli81 21d ago
Im a brazilian and it is a common word here. I have not met a single black person in my life that got offended by that word.
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u/Yutagos_south 21d ago edited 21d ago
I'm French and African. If you call any Black or mixed-race person the hard R or use any racial slur against them, you can get into serious trouble, either with the person you just insulted or with the justice system afterward. I've seen it happen many times.
It's weird that you've never seen a Black person get pissed about that as a Brazilian, especially when, in your country, racism is illegal is a crime. I recently saw an Argentinean trying to do something like that in your country, and everyone was outraged. The Argentinean ended up being arrested and jailed. Or just Vinicius Jr crying about those insuilts in spain.
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u/DiFarris 21d ago
En el español (y portugués) existen insultos raciales, pero no hay equivalente a la "N-word" en si mismo. Aquí en Venezuela le puedes decir negro a alguien sin problema alguno, pero también depende del contexto en que se diga
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u/FirstDarkMage 21d ago edited 21d ago
But if you call someone a "hard-R" (I had to look up the meaning because I didn't know what it was), and that person knows English and understands the context, they would be offended; the thing is, most Brazilians don't know the context or the language, only the wealthy or the middle class, who can afford language courses, have access to a second language.
The Argentine called him a monkey, I think—it's usually "monkey"—which really is an insult, even though I like monkeys
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u/Yutagos_south 21d ago
That’s why I said “hard R” or any racial slur. And I’m pretty sure everyone knows what it means, especially since it’s your continent. Even in Senegal, for example, which is arguably a poorer country than Brazil and is on an entirely different continent with different languages, everyone knows what “negro” means and, most of the time, why it is used against Black people in a discriminatory way about our skin color same as why some use of "monkey".
Stop being disingenuous about this, especially when Brazil is a much larger country , close of America , was the biggest slave port in Latin America, and has some of the strictest laws against racism because of his history about it.
The whole issue isn’t necessarily the word itself, but the meaning and the context behind it. Many countries don’t have the exact same word as “n****r,” but almost every country has a synonym or racial slur for Black people in its own language.
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u/craeli81 20d ago
There is racial slurs here, and there is racism, but the n word isnt one of them. The n world exists, but it just mean black or dark to us.
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u/craeli81 20d ago
There is racial slurs here, and there is racism, but the n word isnt one of them. The n world exists, but it just mean black or dark to us.
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u/FirstDarkMage 21d ago
The translation into Brazilian Portuguese and Latin American Spanish is "negro," which isn't considered racist—it just refers to skin color... Blackface originated in 19th-century American theater; back then, South America was mostly wilderness... theater was never a huge thing here, so we never went through that phase.
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u/No_Piano3956 21d ago
Is fine ... He is an edgy boy, but actually knows how to write conpeling chacters and an interesting story. I like His raw style, full of emotion and violence, used to push the narrative ... Humans can be demons, but also Saints ... And a whole spectrum in between.
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u/I_Defy_You1288 21d ago
My man on point as always.. that’s why people hate it or don’t get it. Gantz is the most realistic human behavior ever depicted on a Manga.
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u/beartanker 21d ago
He's got some pretty bad takes and is considered a netoyou in Japan for those reasons
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u/millennium_hawkk 20d ago
Blaming crime on Black people is nothing new... so yes, his art was an imitation of reality.
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u/Resident-Stick5218 20d ago
What he needs to explain is why we haven't get a remake yet of the full story by a good studio. Netflix will probably suck his D for it and give whatever money he needs to direct the hole thing
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u/Not_Ur_Momz 21d ago
Nothing needs to be explained or defended. I like the story because of how "offensive" it is.
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u/RoboLebron117 21d ago
Im Black and didn’t mind it, it’s the reality lol
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u/connorisntmyname 21d ago
No you arent, most recent post you've made shows you holding a boot and your hand is white.
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u/GDCorner 21d ago
Have you read Baki? They might have lost a hand and got a replacement from their dead (and presumably white) kung fu master friend.
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u/ilganzo01 20d ago
I think he handled it pretty well for the time he wrote that and coming from Japan
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u/momocalbot 20d ago
He used a bit of racism and xenophobia for shock value wouldt be the first person or last he may act like it was a bit nuance but I for one feel there was no difference bewteen the two and his depictions of bouncing boobs and bjs every now and again shock/ecchi entertainment i mean it's a seinen manga
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u/KneesBrokey 20d ago
Kept hearing about how the alien concept is linked to xenophobia and when i was younger it felt like that correlation was a bit absurd. In my 20s i do see the correlation. Although I still find it to be quite an over inflated issue, I can agree to it at points. My favorite part of this manga is that at times they try to humanize and empathize with the aliens, sometimes showing that the aliens themselves just want to live and let live, just blending into society and not bothering anybody. And that concept really helps demonstrate how fucked up the world of gantz really is. Where rape, killings, bullying, school shootings, and a death game where both participants are forced to kill each is treated as normalcy. Of course extreme racism would also fit in this shit world as well. But dont let the chuds fool you, the reason they dont mind it here and hate the western depiction of racism is because they hate being told that it is bad, they want to be shown racism, not be told its immoral. Oku is not noble for putting hints of real world problems into his manga because it literally just fits the shit stain of the world that is gantz, which therefore make the character development and humanity shine through.
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u/tazerrtot 20d ago
Yeah I get how it can come off as insensitive, but it's not like the manga necessarily treated it as an explicitly good thing to be racist/xenophobic, The real problem I have is with shit like the main romance in Gigant- real weird to romanticize a relationship between a 16 year old and a porn actress in her mid 20's
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u/DuskMajima 20d ago
I fucking love gantz. I know people consider it edgy slop, but who gives a shit?
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u/Sivilian888010 19d ago
It's not racist to depict racism.
Django Unchained depicts (and cartoonishly exaggerates for the sake of horror and humor) the absolute shitty situation of the black slaves in the antebellum south. But there's not a single person who'd tell you the movie is a 'racist' movie.
Furthermore with some major exceptions. Due to the very different history of race relations in Japan vs the USA. 90% of the time when a Japanese artist does something like a problematic character design, or a story where racism is 'problematic' it's not done out of actively malicious intent.
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u/Konabro 19d ago
Wait, did you say Django’s depiction of slavery was cartoonishly exaggerated?
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u/Sivilian888010 19d ago
I mean, I read up a lot on the Civil War and antebellum south as a history nerd. and I don’t think there was ever a case where a slave owner paid a slave in beer to murder their brother with a hammer for sick entertainment. I think that was just Tarantino paying tribute to his trashy exploitation film roots. A lot of other stuff was accurate to the real history and the real abuse. But that particular scene was just self-indulgent.
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u/Agile_Wedding9018 19d ago
With all the CP and other weird shit with other mangakas he’s kinda tame
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u/Big_Meat_6681 18d ago
The fact that he had to explain why he made those choices is so depressing because there are genuinely people who either are that retarded and need to be explain everything or people who complain just for the sake of doing that
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u/TomatilloItchy9995 21d ago
Well... there are some parts of the manga that would be difficult to defend.
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u/AXELDROPSYOUDED 21d ago
Tbh in this modern age yeah but back then when it was being made that’s how people where I got called multiple times f*g re!ard those where the main slurs people used tbh and racism was bad in my school too and men where sexist asf woman had rights but they where still controlled by males and even taken advantage of I know so many friends that went through that so gantz was just portraying the world how it was tbh I wished more media could stop trying to censor everything and show the real world and real problems
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u/FruitJuicante 21d ago
Nah. It's fine. What's bad about it? Kurono is a sexist incel but that's his lowest point and he grows from it.
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u/Badger_Other 17d ago
Thats what i like about it. Kurona starts off as a total whiney piece of shit and becomes someone so much better later on
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u/Fragrant-Radio-7811 21d ago
Who cares luv gantz !! Not like its objective was to be racism gantz was made during an era where there wasn’t liberals or soft individuals . Its disquise to redirect to a another race to draw attention away from them
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u/RelationshipBorn1588 21d ago edited 21d ago
He just wanted an excuse for shock value using Racism thematic
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u/samisaywhat 21d ago
Izumi donning black face was probably the least shocking thing in the manga. If he wanted it one truly shocking, I doubt he’d go for such a realistic approach either.
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u/FruitJuicante 21d ago
You're getting downvoted but I agree depictions of murder and racism should be banned from all media. Frankly I think the fact humans are allowed to express themselves or put pen to paper at all is too much freedom. Ban human expression, heil AI!
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u/RelationshipBorn1588 21d ago
Dude, i just think the way the author put this type of stuff like Izumi Blackface ( wich i don't bother so much btw because there's a good narrative for it) and another 10000 nudity painel plus constant sexual commentaries are just straight up shock value he likes to put in the story just for the sick of it. I respect who likes, but for me is pure shock value crap almost all the time I like gantz, but i recognize how much the series depends more on shock value than actually trying to build something properly
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u/FruitJuicante 21d ago
I disagree. Yes he's a known horn dog but there's a reason that Kurono ends up with a "plain Jane" despite the numerous huge boobed anime girls. The start of the story is attractive to incels, it has tits and guns and misogyny and racism and mean spirited humour and sex... but slowly the story takes the reader along with Kurono, from a kid that cares only about himself, who is introduced making fun of the elderly by giving an old lady the wrong directions on purpose, who sees women as nothing but sexual objects, to the greatest hero of mankind, saviour of humanity, best friends with an old man, and choosing Tae over a literal supermodel that is obsessed with him. Through Kurono, incel readers are themselves healed. The open ended ending also makes a statement. Life has no meaning but that which we give it. Life is a void and humans are meat, but yet we can fill that void and rise above our animal nature.
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u/RelationshipBorn1588 21d ago
Well, in my opinion —> this was badly made in the story. First, the God Alien comes randomly and then says " Human life is nothing" while he's just saying this type of bullshit because he's stronger than Humans and can kill them easily – he was just a way of the Author make a shock value momentum with a pessimistic perception and also eliminate Kei clone because he has nothing to do with the character. If you ignore the God Alien, the drama change nothing, literal nothing. Second, The fight with that blond giant alien was totally unnatural and ridiculous due to fact makes no sense: He claims to fight Kurono Kei as if Kei is some strong and legendary haunt while Kei as almost no good feats to impress so much: He lost to the Vampires, fails to save Tae life, fails to avvoid Izumi genocide, not even present in the Osaka Arc ( one of the strongest invasions in the anime btw )... Kei is basically just a random Gantz Hunter among others, he has his qualities like everyone, but he's no way so special. Then the Blonde Alien beat more experienced Gantz Hunters WITHOUT ANY TECHNOLOGY! Like, there's no reason for that beatdown, he's just become a god sci-fi samurai and kills an absurd number of Gantz Hunters alone with just sword techinique. Then we have fucking Kei fighting this guy equally? This is just a rushed made-up ending, dude. You see that deepness because the manga starts dark and all, but in the reality, Gantz is just badly written. Well... in my opinion, it is.
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u/FruitJuicante 21d ago
Valid opinion, but I don't share it.
What manga or story would you say does this better then? Interested.
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u/RelationshipBorn1588 21d ago
Sorry, man. I have no idea about a story with the same tone as Gantz with a writing that approaches me. When I'm going to read a new manga or something, i read more because the story or art draws me into it.
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u/aka_dimitrii 11d ago
(Este comentario era para otro post pero no dejo comentar por qué el post era muy viejo, es mi primer comentario en la app, pero lo pondré aquí por q y lo escribí)
Creo que no es para todos , lo mismo pasaban en la misiones no eran para todos, saben? no todos lo entendían, de primero me molestó igual el fanservice ( la escena donde quieren abusar de Kishimoto ) realmente es triste , el manga es crudo pero siento que es la representación del "ello” un ejemplo es el mostrar los pensamientos reales de las personas de su subconsciente, el anime tiene ideas filosóficas buenas es una muy buena historia de ciencia ficción si es cierto que quedan cabos sueltos pero para los animes actuales….. es una obra de arte (lo vi después de ver dan da dan) 10/10 real y no sentí que hubiera referencias homofobicas o racistas, sexismo más que evidente, pero alch me gustó más que muchos animes/mangas que están top, la evolución de kurono se me hace espectacular, como él y kato son "opuestos” pero se complementan. Por q siento q uno tiene lo que le falta al otro saben , es muy crudo pero tiene su toque igual ya he visto animaciones más crudas o random aparte así le nació expresar su arte al autor, siento q el tema es fácil querían expresar el peor lado del humano por eso se les hacía raro q kato quisiera tener comportamientos humanitarios, por eso otras equipos o miembros se “divertían” con las misiones, por eso hicieron un negocio y apuestas las elites, lo único que no me gustó tanto fue que no se quedó con reika estaba más sabosha
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u/AXELDROPSYOUDED 21d ago
Tbh I admired gantz it was raw and unfiltered and it does talk about how people used to look people of race or sex or preference different in those ages