r/hatethissmug • u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 • 10h ago

Non-fictional I HATE these "gotcha arguments"

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"Ohhh, look how I tricked this dumb dumb baby in my trap so now I am right and they are wrong. I'm so smaaart even though it does not adress the actual argument and adds nothing to the debate. They teach arabic numerals in school btw."

And these type of comments always get tons of likes

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u/Sugarrrsnaps 9h ago

Common "pro life" arguments are built on the assumption that a fetus is the same as a human baby. Most pro choice people would disagree with that, a fetus is something very different. The fact that you can't distinguish a human fetus from a dolphin validates the pro choice argument. It's not the strongest argument maybe but it makes sense as a counterpoint to the "pro life" argument.

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u/Sudden-Hoe-2578 9h ago

But you don't determine wether something is human or not only based upon appearance.

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u/Sugarrrsnaps 6h ago edited 6h ago

We do, same way we determine what anything is based on appearance. We're not always right, but that's a different point. The weakness I see in the argument is that your respect for the life of other beings shouldn't only be based on how human they look. But if you open that can of worms maybe we shouldn't kill any living being. What makes a human fetus more valued than a dolphin fetus?

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u/Parrotparser7 2h ago

We do, same way we determine what anything is based on appearance.

I thought we stopped doing this back in 1865.

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u/Adventurous-Web-412 8h ago

the "same" means the moral status, the argument isn't that the faetus is literally the same as a human baby, I have never seen that argument before. If someone were to argue that you could just show a human baby, but all that shows is they clearly aren't LITERALLY the same and forces the person to attach a why they are the same not make their point invalid.

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u/Sugarrrsnaps 6h ago

I have heard so many pro life people claim that abortion is "killing babies", child murder etc.

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u/Adventurous-Web-412 6h ago

Its not LITERALLY saying its a baby, its rhetoric. If somebody wants to look at a faetus and LITERALLY say its the same as a baby, then sure showing them how its the same as a dolphin functions to disprove that. But from experience, when they say "killing babies" its that the faetus itself will be a baby, and as such has the same moral status as one.

The child murder etc stuff is rhetoric because calling someone a murder is one thing, but calling them a child murderer is much worse.

Ignoring that you should always argue charitably with someone, bringing down the biological claim of them being identical still is pointless. It doesn't actually mean anything towards the anti abortion argument, proving the biological difference doesnt make the religious argument weaker nor the moral status argument weaker, it functions as a gotcha against rhetoric.

Those people might not be able to explain the logic behind their rhetoric, many people can't, but the implicit logic in the rhetoric is that its a moral status claim.

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u/Sugarrrsnaps 6h ago

Honestly, I think "pro life" it comes down to controlling women and not valuing their bodily autonomy. If you consider all the human suffering banning abortion leads to, it's pretty clear cut that abortion is a human right. That's the strong argument and the rest is just poking holes in the smokescreen of being "pro life".

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u/Adventurous-Web-412 6h ago

You can make that argument, but im not disagreeing with you or making an argument for anti abortion, I dont really disagree with you on most of that.

Just the showing of the dolphin faetus is at best a stupid gotcha and at worst a strawman by means of scope narrowing. Its pointless, and it helps noone.