r/iching • u/Sea_Association_9642 • 3d ago
Why another? 39.4.5<>62
I've been in a relationship for 5 years, a month after he proposed and we were going to marry he ghosted me. A year later we talked again and he said he's married the same year. I'm not going to talk about him -nearly a decade later, saying it was a mistake and he still loves me, I asked why he left me and got another althought he doesn't love her? 39.4.5<>62.
Thank you for any insight about this answer!
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u/az4th 2d ago
Ooh, that's hard OP, I'm so sorry. This seems to be a common theme sometimes in relationships. The man is going for the chase and the prize and gets it, and then suddenly loses the plot. What happened? Did he get scared as the reality of settling down with someone set in? Did that other person show up at the same time and then he made a mistake and realized too late he couldn't take it back?
I'm exploring this a bit because I'm not sure what the answer is yet. The yi likes to be pretty literal, but sometimes there is a nuance that is being reflected that isn't overtly obvious. Like looking to compose the perfect photograph of a waterfall, we need to come at it from just the right angle.
I work from the Classical Method of the I Ching. Unlike the Changing Line Method that is common these days, we don't treat the lines as changing polarity to create a second hexagram. Instead we see the lines as either still or active - and when active (like your 4 and 5 here), we see that they are drawn magnetically to the other lines, or pushed away by them, as the two trigrams relate with each other. Sometimes they want to make a journey to the other trigram and connect with a line they can form a magnetic pair with to open the door way of change. And sometimes they can't do that.
39 is an example of where they can try to do that - because there are pairings available - but they are advised not to.
In any case, the name of the hexagram tends to come from the overall dynamic that the lines find they are revolving around. And that dynamic of change tends to have a lot of nuances with it. So we get our answer, and that answer is reflected in a particular part of how those lines are changing. If we can understand the change in the lines, maybe we can understand the change our question is asking about.
39 has become one of my favorite hexagrams. It represents a major challenge, and yet still has the potential to allow for adjusting things carefully enough to allow for a positive outcome... sometimes. That positive outcome is not easily reached however. After all the hexagram is named "Struggle".
Mountain is below Water. It is like a rain cloud has pulled up and finds its way blocked by the mountain. But if the two just butt heads, well the rain is all released and the lines can come together but the outcome is a disaster - we have flooding and landslides. However, if we are able to slow down and let the cloud very gently settle onto the mountain, the the mountain and the rain are just together there naturally and their merging may be completed without tragedy. Not easily done.
The keys we have are the two yang lines. Line 3 is the top of the mountain, but it represents a rising force. Just like the yang line of thunder likes to move down before it springs back up, the top line of mountain likes to rise up before it settles to make its stable containment. It is looking to be matched to a yin line, and there is a yin line at the top line of water, line 6. So both of them want to "go towards" (wang) but are advised to turn back and "summon" (lai) instead.
The problem has to do with the other yang line - line 5. Line 5 represents the water within the cloud, the force of massed up energy that we don't want to release. But it is between lines 3 and 6. And it too has a line it wants to connect with - line 5 is the middle line of the upper trigram, yang, and it wants to connect with the yin middle line of the lower trigram, yin line 2. But to do that it has to get its potent energy past the yang line 3.
So both of the yang lines have somewhere they want to go, which makes them want to move, but both are advised to hold back so that it can happen naturally, without their potent energy clashing as they attempt to step past each other.
Between them is line 4.
Yin line 4 is the force holding up the cloud's water so that it doesn't rain. It is all that is between yang lines 3 and 5, preventing their clash and the flooding and landslides. But yin line 4 is also looking for its yang match at the bottom of the other trigram (so both bottom lines can be together). But the bottom line of the bottom trigram is yin. So there is no magnetic pairing there... when this happens, the line tends to look for another magnetic pair. It's already familiar with its job holding up yang line 5 from below, but in this trigram water is now relating with a new energy and its sole yang line is pressed up against it - yang line 3. And yang line 3 can't easily make its match with yin line 6, so these two lines, lines 3 and 4, are tempted by the possibility of their relationship.
But if yin line 4 stops supporting yin line 5 to consummate its relationship with yang line 3, then yang line 5 is not held up any more and the whole affair is blown out of proportion and everything breaks down.
So line 3 is told Going Toward is a struggle, abiding in receptivity reverses this.
And line 4 is told Going Toward is a struggle, abiding in receptivity merges with.
So in order to avoid the struggle that comes of everything coming apart to quickly, the lines have to all remain in their places so that they hexagram can come together gently, utilizing receptivity so that the two trigrams can merge with each other.
As for line 5 and line 2, they represent the center of both trigrams. Line 2 is working in earnest to support line 5 from below, even though it doesn't have much leverage - like a air traffic controller trying to support the pilot of a damaged plane flying in even though the signal keeps cutting in and out. So line 5 is said to have a Great struggle joining those it summons.
I asked why he left me and got another althought he doesn't love her?
The main challenge here relates to line 4 and its willingness to trust the process. There are two big forces coming together - mountain and water. Line 4 needs to be patient and use receptivity to help line 5 and line 2 meet. But line 4 feels some sort of struggle as the wall of line 3 looms up before it, and doesn't know how to be receptive and just allow it all to come together naturally, so it capitulates between these two forces and lets go of one and goes to the other.
Line 5 probably represents his true intentions, while line 4 represents the part of himself that was holding things together, and that part didn't make it through. It got scared of letting the big merging happen and settled for something quick and easy instead because it felt like a way out of something really big that he didn't understand.
And what, now he's recognizing his mistake? Oh my.
Like I get it. I've been on both sides of this. When I was younger something got serious once and I just sorta bailed. There wasn't even another person. I felt that wall loom up and I didn't know what was going on, couldn't even put words to it, but I slowly backed away. We'd only been dating a couple months and I liked her... I still don't understand it really, but I get the sense that destiny was pulling me away, back onto my main path.
Another time after about 4 months I was going to move in with someone and it seemed pretty serious. I'd already moved half my stuff up there, a state away. And two weeks before the final day she broke up with me because she found someone new. I was shocked, but again it felt like I was being saved to continue on my spiritual journey... not that I can't do this with a partner, though I guess for that both partners need to be on the same page or they are likely to hold each other back. In the moment however I just felt burned and couldn't understand how someone could do something like that.
They got married and a few years later I ran into her and she was divorced and seemed to be in a good place finding her own way. I think that she too needed to have her freedom to follow her path in the end.
I guess it all depends on what we are really looking for. Settling down with the perfect person is sometimes the dream we learn to wish for in our youth, but I think we all have a spiritual destiny as well. And that is something that is different for all of us... and society doesn't usually make it easy to follow that dream. We tend to have to really work for it, and take the time to learn our lessons one by one.
In any case, you deserve someone better than this. Someone who truly wants to align their path with yours to accomplish something together that can be mutually meaningful. And support both of your growth forward.
Blessings to your way OP!
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u/Sea_Association_9642 2d ago
Thank you for your heartfelt answer and the time you put into understanding the dynamics!
I tend to take the Yi's answers personally. At least, I believe change comes from within, but it's a dangerous path as I end up torn in a hell of a binary world where even the sense of who I am is lost—in H39 especially, because of the many ideas around it as an inner obstacle. Yesterday, the answer felt this way before I had even thought of anything: I have to change my approach to the question.
I like your method of reading the lines according to their positions and their relationship to both hexagrams. It resonates a lot with my idea of Inner truth as freedom and responsibility (I have always thought positions are what make the Yi in the first place, but I can't prove it). And the work you've done in describing the tension is really magnificent. Thank you again for this fresh learning you have given me.
This tension you describe was already playing out when we were together, and it seems to still play out every time we meet; him wanting me to settle, and me taking it as control. What is certain is that his words always invite me to show more softness, whether he speaks to me or talks about her. I admit t hat I carry too many ghosts of the past , but why not accept me for who I am? It's like always chasing that last proof, but I don't think it will ever be enough as long as I don't see it in myself. Maybe that's what my feeling of the reading as an inner blockage is about.
As I'm writing this, the ghosts of the past are laughing at my surrender. Maybe they're just the voice of wisdom telling me to accept the incompatibility and move on. What is certain is that I have changed a lot since he left. And even if I were to say I deserve better, the truth is I'm morphing into a softer person. It's strange because I used to be like that before encountering the ghosts.
The image of the cloud settling softly is so beautiful! I wish that one day I could change into that.
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u/az4th 2d ago
I was raised by a single parent who I guess had some mental challenges / attachments that they weren't really willing to acknowledge or change. They didn't agree with the diagnosis. Which is ironic considering that the hallmark of the issue was that the person tends to refuse to acknowledge it.
In any case in my childhood at some point my growth was stunted because of a lack of ability to choose my own path / exercise my autonomy. And I didn't want to create conflict so I didn't struggle too hard, it was more like I waited to get out on my own. And then I began to change, and those changes were a problem for my parent, who wanted me to be the person they had trained to be there by their side.
Anyway, it took another couple of decades to work through my healing and realize that this person had an idea of the me that they wanted me to be, and couldn't really see the me who I was. It was like the true me was denied. They didn't accept me for who I was and at every turn would dismiss the real me and speak to the me in their head. It wasn't healthy for either of us and I don't recommend ever going down that road with someone.
I mentioned this because of what you asked "why not accept me for who I am?" If he was going to want you to be someone else, or didn't like they way you chose to be yourself, then I wonder what was going on for this to stay like that for five years. I guess we all have ways we can grow, and its OK to not feel comfortable when another person behaves a certain way. But with good communication we have the ability to come to an understanding about these things. I think these are things that we need to work on together, and can help each other with. But it shouldn't be about one person controlling the other. Both people are adapting and evolving simultaneously. And hopefully growing.
But when one person becomes controlling, we have a tendency to respond by putting up a defensive wall. So we become two hard forces. If we ever see that someone might need an intervention, like say from an addiction, I've come to the realization is that it is best to share safe space with them and help them feel comfortable, then they often will open up about problems they need help with all on their own. It isn't always easy, but this is the struggle of using softness to overcome a challenge rather than using force. It works really well with 39.
As I'm writing this, the ghosts of the past are laughing at my surrender. Maybe they're just the voice of wisdom telling me to accept the incompatibility and move on. What is certain is that I have changed a lot since he left. And even if I were to say I deserve better, the truth is I'm morphing into a softer person. It's strange because I used to be like that before encountering the ghosts.
Do you know about Chinese finger cuffs? When we try to pull on them they get tighter and we can't free our fingers. But when we push our fingers together they loosen up so we can gently free ourselves.
Maybe in the time apart from him you changed because you had the freedom you needed to learn some lessons while not under pressure.
At one point I had to go No Contact with my parent. I needed to establish boundaries that were not being respected. They didn't believe that they needed to listen when I said no to something. In Chinese medicine this is like the bladder channel. It is the outer layer of defense of our qi - when we are in the fetal position it makes a circle all around us.
Once I went NC, it felt like the knife was pulled from the wound. That was a new feeling. And then the wound felt like it was really healing. I began to gain experience in life feeling like I could make my own choices. And that it was OK for me to be me.
After a while, I had a friend pass. It really touched my heart. And I began to explore how the heart channel is the opposite of the bladder channel. And to explore how the heart heart is able to melt the boundaries away with softness and disarming.
So I let my parent back in again. Things were OK for a few months, but it wasn't long until the old patterns came back. They were a person who refused to do their work to grow and change, so it wasn't surprising. Eventually it went to an extreme. But this time I didn't really need to establish boundaries as much as just take them. I just stopped responding to messages that went past my boundaries. So now we're back to very low contact. I wish it wasn't like this, but I trust them to be the person they've chosen to be.
And I also trust myself to be the person who becomes more reactive and unstable when I have them pushing my boundaries. And I've discovered that I am a much different person when I don't have to worry about that. I'm a very tolerant person and I don't really care so much about what other people do, as long as they stay in their lane. But when it comes to my own person and the choices I make for myself, it really isn't up to someone else to try to force me to do things without my consent, or to create pressure by trying to constantly ask me to do something in every possible different way after I've said no. It puts the wall back up. I wish this person wouldn't do this. I'm happy for the right person to see ways that I could improve myself and help me to work on that through healthy communication and mutual agreement. But I guess consent is something that is pretty important to a balanced relationship.
Anyway, it sounds like you've changed by being away from this person for the better. It sounds to me like you are recognizing that you've graduated from this particular lesson. In my experience, once we choose to close the door on a lesson instead of going back, that's when we begin to move forward. And the universe brings us new lessons, often through new people. Maybe we will be tested and the universe will bring us someone who is like the old person, and we need to recognize that and say no again, and tell the universe hey I've learned this already, ok?!. Or maybe we need to examine hmmm, what am I still doing that is holding onto this pattern? what can I forgive myself for to release this sort of thing from my path? And then maybe we will feel a fresh breath of air blow past and everything begins to change. Because we changed.
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u/Sea_Association_9642 2d ago
The synchronicities are so huge! At this very moment I am forced to confront them to tell them clearly to respect my boundaries.
I left my family when I was 23. Needless to say, it was a massive shock to "the system," but it also gave me a taste of what a fresh life far away from them felt like. The problem is that they harassed me, busting down doors and speaking ill of me to everyone. They did this within a culture that shares their total inability to question themselves.
Some time ago, I finally realized "my greatness" by measuring the gap they can't leap.
After he left, I felt vulnerable. My mistake was looking to them for support, thinking they would ask for forgiveness. That turned into a double hell. Not only did I try to adapt and second-guess myself, but they became mean and openly enjoyed my downfall. Going back and trying to adapt not only made me lose confidence in myself and my certainties, but it also ruined my career, leaving me trapped under their authority once again.
This man was my fortitude when nobody else could understand my situation. As I said, my feelings of guilt toward my family were fueled by my realization of the general pattern of the society I live in. I could have chosen him, but I was stupid enough to stretch myself thin in my desire to include them in my life again, still fearing their reaction. I don't know why I have the feeling that he thought I was still not living and choosing for myself, and this has played out in his decision.
The softer side I am learning to get back to is my true nature without the struggles. I could have achieved this sooner if I had just accepted them for who they are and lost all hope of them changing.
So, this situation reflects the confusion of knowing that my first choices were right, yet allowing myself to experience an illusion. Maybe that is the meaning of 39.4.5.
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u/az4th 2d ago
I think I am slowly learning that I like the heart more than exercising boundaries. Sometimes it feels like words can hurt so quickly... and yet if I see through them... well there seems to be this place where I know myself, and things that aren't true of me just won't stick. The energy and the projections just pass through.
If something doesn't stick it still belongs to the other person, if I ignore it. What can the other person get from a response of silence? They end up having to carry their burden in one way or another. There are other ways to harmonize to soften the blow of that. Crazy 8's or Uno both have wild cards. Changing the topic can work wonders. So can humming a tune. People get distracted from their attachments. It's important to stay centered.
This way, boundaries can be managed softly, and one can stay in the heart. Taijiquan uses softness to fend off physical attacks too, if one becomes strong enough in the softness.
Finding our path alone can be hard, but sometimes it is worth getting out there. I think there are different kinds of struggles. Sometimes we can struggle against anxiety about doing something that takes courage. But the anxiety doesn't necessarily mean that path is wrong.
I think the illusions we experience teach us important lessons. Maybe we wouldn't have chosen them if we knew better. But they take us through what we think we need at the time.
Zhuangzi says that everything may be seen as right and wrong from some perspective. Or another. What is right is what is right for us right now. And maybe that will change. Maybe touching fire is right to a toddler who reaches out, only to quickly learn that it is no longer right.
I'm glad he was able to support you when you needed it. And I hope that you get the support you need as you move forward again. From your family and from others. Please remember you always have yourself, and to never give up on yourself!
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u/Sea_Association_9642 2d ago
I choose silence. I am at my lowest; I'm not even going to explain or seek answers.
Thanks again.
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u/az4th 1d ago
Best wishes to you and your way forward.
I found that a spiritual practice was very helpful. That can come in many different forms for different people, but the spirit we cultivate is what matters.
As we learn our lessons and cultivate spirit, we accumulate virtue, and virtue is powerful.
I found that the moving meditation of tai chi was really good for me. It helped me go more inward while doing something that moves my body at the same time, so that nothing can get stagnant. And it is good that it takes hard work and discipline... including the discipline to afford a class. Sometimes it was hard to pay rent, but once I'd found a good teacher I worked well with it became a need, not a want. And I've gotten better at working with the universe to provide for my needs.
Blessings to your way, never give up!
Trust yourself, trust yourself, trust yourself!
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u/Selderij 2d ago
If we're to assume that the Yi answers these things understandably, it looks like he had serious difficulty going on with you and found a friend who made his life easier.