Why shouldn't have happened something to the dogs in the bathroom?
I know Duolingo is not the best, but the only free learning option. Since I'm living in Germany near the border to Czechia I'm often there and talking Czech which helps more than Duolingo.
Neeeebo je možná rozdíl mezi přirozenou mluvou, která se vyvíjí na základě uživatelů jazyka a archaickou formou češtiny založenou na nějakým moravským dialektu z 16 století?
Honit kralickou češtinu a vytvářet si kolem ní prestižnost je úchylný.
Fakt si mluvící obecný češtiny slyšel v neformálním kontextu říct "jenž" místo "který"? Formální kontext je skoro vždycky provozovanej v nějaký formě hovorový češtiny, takže tam "prestižní" slova např. "Jenž" lidi budou šoupat.
"Jenž" is for masculine singular, "již" is masculine plural (only animate, for inanimate it is also "jež," just like feminine singular and plural and also neuter singular and plural)
I didn't mention it because I didn't even know there's a difference lol. I wonder what LLM model Duolingo devs use that decided to use "jež" instead of "které" (I doubt a person made this decision).
The Czech course was made long time ago by Czech volunteers in Duolingo incubator when it existed. This is in latter lesson, they simply wanted to introduce this concept as well, since it exists. By the way they also teach common Czech (obecná čeština) in the very last lesson
I made this decision a long time ago. The entire point of including this sentence was to use a form of "jenž." Forms of "které" are taught quite a bit earlier in the course. I don't think we actively taught "co" and "jak" as relative pronouns at all.
Duolingo does not use AI to create content for the Czech course, with the exception of letting it accept some user reports of missing answers.
Thanks for the downvote but the reality is that nobody really uses "jenž" and won't remember that overly confusing table which was the thing I was pointing out but it seems like the downvoters don't understand that.
But I would rather identify the correct sentence by "byly".
Duolingo sentences almost never make sense. That's why I would avoid it when learning a new language. Use a dedicated app or a real course. It's worth it.
psům (masculine animate, plural): psům, již byli v koupelně
jež is for feminine, bot singular and plural
jenž is for singular masculine
I had to check it even as a native speaker. I don't use jenž/jež/již/etc. often when speaking, It feels archaic
I did learn it in school, and it is used in newspapers very frequently, you need to know it to be able to read them.
And no, the transgressive (přechodník; "participle" is příčestí) is very dead and has been for hundreds of years, before the 19th century revivalists tried to bring it back.
Some transgressives are pretty common like chtě, počínaje, konče, soudě.
("Chtě nechtě to udělal. Všichni stáli v řadě, počínaje Petrem, konče Pavlem. Soudě dle jeho výrazu, se mu to nelíbilo")
And some are used for pacing even by teens in fanfictions: "Slyšíc jeho hlas, okamžitě se otočila."
(Although that might just be my bias based on what I read.)
You dont really need to know exactly what jenž means to get the gist of what the headline means, its not a realy important word for a headline, youll just fill the meaning from the context
Yes. While "jenž" is not really used in spoken Czech and most Czechs use it wrong as a result, it's still a part of Czech grammar, and it has different forms for male/female nouns. And more importantly, you need to distinguish byly/byli. If there is any noun that is male and animated (which "pes" is), the verb ends with i. If there are only female, neutral or male non-animated ("myš" is female), you need to use y.
I would definitely suggest using a textbook, not just Duolingo, because Czech language has very complicated grammar rules and Duolingo won't explain them properly. And many Czechs struggle with the rules as well, so asking others might not always help.
That is fair I think that learning czech to the level of understand and speaking (so that ppl understand you) is not that hard, but to be grammatically correct is unhinged level of difficulty.
Obviously it's up to you, but for me, Duolingo is never enough to teach me a language. I need to understand how the language works to understand the language. And Duolingo won't tell you that. But everyone's learning styles are different, if this works for you, go ahead.
In spoken language you won't need this, but yes, it cannot be psům... Because psi is masculine and carries ti psi with it, so it would be psům kteří byli. The y only fits the mice. Since you have ty myši, a feminine word, so it would be myším které byly.
Well I can tell you what is wrong and how it would be right, as a native Czech speaker though, I too have no idea why is this stuff like this and wasn’t made easier for writing over the years. So back to the sentence: For the dogs the correct way would be “Těm psům, JIŽ BYLI”, not “JEŽ BYLY”. The words have different forms for masculine(dogs) and feminine(mice). I studied grammar school and no one ever told me why is it like this, sure they can explain which is which and how it works, but why is this obscure, impossible-to-understand thing still in the language, no one knows that for some reason.
Good luck with learning Czech!
PS: the word jenž/jež/již/jejž is a total nutjob and I got no idea why duolingo teaches you this one. czechs can’t get it right often until they’re grown up, it’s just a silly way to say “THAT” in like 20 forms with very strict rules for applying each one.
no reason for this to still exist in the language honestly and anyone who defends this word is a pompous posh dickhead.
Lol. Yeah, Duolingo is correct, it's because of the gramatical gender, but c'mon is the grammar you need when you're writing a book or something like that XD
As a Czech it took me a while to figure out why it's wrong. Also I've never used "jež" or "jenž" in a conversation before, for me it's just a word to put in your essay to not repeat "který"
It’s because “jež” is only permissible for plurals of feminine, neuter, and inanimate masculine nouns in the nominative. “Dogs” is a masculine animate plural so it would be “již”.
This is some insane level Czech you’re learning! I speak Czech as a first language and, though jež sounded wrong, I had to look up the correct conjunction. 😂
Most of my friends born in Czech Republic would also fail this question tbh…I studied linguistics and even I had to focus for a couple seconds before seeing why “myším” is correct. Also nobody speaks like that, wtf duolingo…”jež/jenž” is only used in books.
As far as I know... Unfortunately there's nothing in English language that could relate to what we call "vzor" as it relies on the succession of the words instead.
Strange. I use it quite a lot, alongside with "jenž."
For op: you cant use "psům" because that's plural of "animate masculinum" so the sentence would need to go: "Těm psům, již byli..."
Both the word "jež" (for masculinum jenž/již) and "byly" (for animate masculinum "byli") suggest you need to use the femininum - in this case "ta myš, ty myši."
No one uses "jež" or "jenž" in real life. You will find it in books and newspaper but no in live. Also no one would start sentence with "těm" like this, it is not needed to use the word. Also I do not have mouses or dogs in my bathroom so it all looks like nonsense.
This is the really hard part of pur grammar and you need at least one native speaker to explain it. The reasoning behind this is, that when you have a sentence in past and the subject is in plural or there are more subjects, it changes the y/i/a at the end of the verb. When at least one of the subjects is male(on) and living(the 1st and 4th case are different), then the verb ends in a i, that applies to we and they too, when you assume there is at least one man among them. When all of the subjects are female and/or male not living(the 1st and 4th case are the same), then the verb ends with a y. When the subjects are the middle gender(or how the helk do you call střední rod in English) then the verb ends with an a. I suggest looking this grammar rule up, its called "shoda podnětu s přísudkem". You can find it in almost every Czech school textbook for like 5th grade .
The second rule is about the word "jež", thats an ond synonym for který(which). Based on the gender, case and if it is in plural or not, we use different cases of the word jenž(that's the original word from which you get jež). This is a word basically nobody uses now and the rules on when to use which case is completely irregular, that even the natives(me btw) have to learn from a textbook. If you are really interested in how jenž works, you can open the same textbook where you find shoda podnětu s přísudkem.
It’s because “jež” and “byly” agree with the feminine gender. While “pes” is masculine, “myš” is feminine and indeed what the pronoun and verb agrees with.
There’s nothing wrong with the semantics, just with the grammar.
I'll give you an advice no one uses jež anymore. We usually use co or který which has more forms. Co is not the most formal thing to use but it's more normal and definitely easier than jenž
Distinguish between jež and jenž is quite difficult. The -y shows that the subject is fenininum (thus myši) and not masculinum (psi). Anyway, no-one would say this sentence, it's like from an old book anyway.
It's like from a text book of the Czech language we used as natives. Then the "diktát" was often just full of exceptions and archaisms. Like when you hear Výtoň as a kid outside of Prague for the first time in the test you have no clue if it is í/ý or that ližiny are not derived from lyže.
No, it's plural: "Těm psům, již byli v koupelně, se něco stalo." But this is considered dated, and the recommended way is to simply say: "Těm psům, kteří byli v koupelně..."
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u/Elanaris 16d ago
byly (myši) vs byli (psi)