r/magicTCG • u/rlcnga_ Dan • 23h ago
Deck Discussion What bracket is this deck?
Hello. I received the World Shaper precon recently as a gift and after playing one game with it, I heavily upgraded it. Now I'm not sure if it's still valid in bracket 2. I haven't played with this upgraded version yet because I'm waiting for the cards IRL, so I'm not sure. And I know the precon is already one of the strongest there is, so there is that as well.
Thanks!
5
u/Suspicious_Base635 Sultai 23h ago
I would call this a side-grade. Nothing really seems too crazy. Also, your mana base desperately needs some work. You're incredibly green heavy, but you haven't accounted for that in your mana base. Cut the bad fetches that don't get you a forest.
2
u/BurrKing Dan 23h ago
It's pretty tame. Your land base is not nearly degenerate enough to push this into 3 territory. You took out the infinite enabler also [[mourag, fury of]]
4
1
u/lordlurker7 Wabbit Season 16h ago
I believe many of the recent precons easily fall into bracket 3 out of the box. World Shaper included
-2
u/rlcnga_ Dan 15h ago
Tbh, there is no precons that are bracket 3 out of the box. There are strong ones that can pop off and win in a few turns, but the chances of those happening every single game are not consistent since precons barely have any tutors. I’d like to see a precon that’s actually bracket 3. A precon that can sometimes win earlier than what bracket 2 intended is not a bracket 3 deck. I wouldn’t even call World Shaper bracket 3. I think a lot of people are forgetting about the consistency factor and intent of the bracket system. No one intends to pubstomp the game with a precon and no precons are consistent enough to win at bracket 3 level
-14
u/ardarian262 Dân 23h ago
Has a 2 card infinite with Dakmor and Gitrog. Not bracket 2 legal.
6
u/Suspicious_Base635 Sultai 20h ago
This is how they fucked up with the bracket system, they got people saying shit like that with no context.
The scenario where you would be able to get a Dakmor/Gitrog cleanup step combo going in this deck would be very rare. This deck really doesn't have a ton of card draw, we're talking maybe 5 pieces of card draw if we're generous, so getting to 8 cards in hand with Gitrog out would be difficult and the player would have very little way to capitalize on it until their next turn anyway. I mean, I guess if you had Aftermath Analyst in play and mana open, you could recure a bunch of lands on an opponents turn, but even then, having more cards in play means that you went down in cards in hand, making it harder to start the cleanup step version of the combo anyway. Setting up this combo before turn 8 would not be easy in my opinion and passing the turn with a grip of 8 cards in hand that late in the game would probably not be the best play.
Also it came stock in the precon. That shit is bracket 2.
1
u/ardarian262 Dân 13h ago
Bracket 2 is defined as not having ANY 2 card combos. No exceptions.
Bracket 2 also is not tied to precons because of precons including 2 card infinites and sometimes game changers. This is definitionally bracket 3.
3
u/Kyleometers ඞ 21h ago
That’s not an infinite combo though. You need a third piece for that to actually do anything other than kill yoi.
1
-4
u/ardarian262 Dân 21h ago
You aren't guaranteed to lose. Dredge is a may not a force action.
Having 8+ cards in hand is a prerequisite but not a "third piece" that stops it from being a 2 card combo.
8
u/Kyleometers ඞ 20h ago
The thing is, all that happens is you can mill your whole deck. You need a third piece to actually win from there. That’s why it’s not a 2-card infinite - it’s not infinite life, or infinite damage, and it’s not a trivial win like infinite mana. Decking yourself on cleanup is not a combo without some other outlet.
0
u/ardarian262 Dân 13h ago
Perfecting your hand is not setting up a win and setting up your graveyard in black isn't doing that either?
2
u/Maplane Avacyn 21h ago
Ok so you discard Dakmor, Gitrog triggers, you mill 2 and get dakmor back. Repeat. What is the problem with just that ? you need other stuff to even get something from that "may" infinite mill.
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u/ardarian262 Dân 21h ago
What happens when you mill a land?
-2
u/ardarian262 Dân 20h ago
Also infinite mill and draw in a land recursive deck is very good. That engine likely wins games. And on any case, bracket 2 is NO 2 card infinite combos. At all. And as we agree, this is infinite and only 2 cards. So this is bracket 3 at least.
1
u/klick37 Duck Season 19h ago
It isn't infinite draw, you're replacing your draws with dredge. It's infinite mill during cleanup. You could choose to draw instead of dredging when you have 1-2 cards left in deck and then discard a nonland to stop the loop, go to your upkeep and resolve the gitrog trigger to draw, draw in your draw step, then try to do something degenerate while your deck is in the bin but that definitionally requires more than just the two cards that made the loop to actually do something more then lose the game.
When people say two card infinite combos they often don't care if something could happen any number of times if that thing isn't going to cause the game to end.
-1
u/ardarian262 Dân 13h ago
When you mill a land you draw a card from the deck.
When people say two card infinite combos they often don't care if something could happen any number of times if that thing isn't going to cause the game to end.
So infinite life and infinite mana are not things people care about?
1
u/klick37 Duck Season 13h ago
You don't draw, you dredge the Dakmor Salvage instead in order to keep the loop going.
1
u/ardarian262 Dân 13h ago
Dredge Salvage
Replace draw by returning Salvage. Mill a land and a non land
Draw from land going from deck to graveyard...
1
u/rlcnga_ Dan 15h ago
Nothing’s infinite about it. You’ll deck yourself out, and there’s no payoff for it anyway. WotC even put it in the precon because it basically does nothing for the deck and doesn’t qualify as a 2-card infinite because it’s not infinite
0
u/ardarian262 Dân 13h ago
They dropped the word precon from the definition of bracket 2 for a reason. The deck is bracket 3 for the same reason.
Also setting up your hand and grave for a grave recursion deck does a lot of things.
1
u/rlcnga_ Dan 13h ago edited 13h ago
Yeah it does a lot of things, but so is any other tech in the bracket. And what are the chances of you actually pulling it off and have cards that can even take advantage of it? Because I know for a fact there is nothing in the deck. Consistency and intent is the most important part of the bracket system, even according to WotC, and this deck cannot consistently win at bracket 3 level. I haven’t even pulled it off once. So no, there are no precons that is bracket 3, this deck is not bracket 3, and the point still stands that it’s not infinite so your first argument is irrelevant to begin with
You keep arguing to everyone below about the “infinite” when it’s not even an infinite to begin with. Read what it means to go infinite before you spit out nonsense
1
u/ardarian262 Dân 13h ago
You have nothing that pulls from grave? You have nothing that you want to cast from hand?
And consistency isn't part of the definition for 2 card combos. At all. This is the definition of a 2 card combo, even if it is hard for the deck to pull off some of the time. And those are banned in bracket 2. And yes, some precons are bracket 3. WoTC admits as much.
Technically nothing is "infinite" on magic unless you draw the game. You choose a number just sometimes an arbitrarily large one. On either case, this is a 2 card combo that draws or mills your deck and sets you up for a win the next turn of you get it.
2
u/rlcnga_ Dan 13h ago
The bracket system don’t have bans. It’s not a hard rule, it’s a conversational tool. What’s restricted for bracket 2 is 2-card infinite combo. Not two card combo. And nothing about it is infinite. And the topic is bracket, so consistency talk is relevant. The deck cannot pull the legal combo consistently to begin with so nothing about it is bracket 3, and the deck doesn’t revolve about the combo anyway, so I don’t know why you’re so fixated on it.
I see the problem with the bracket system now. It feels like talking to a wall when arguing about it with someone. This shit was a waste of time
1
u/ardarian262 Dân 13h ago
If you pulled it off against me in a "Bracket 2" I would laugh, call you on it, and then have a discussion about it before either leaving the game if you were THIS insufferable about "It's ina precon" when that is not what defines brackets at all or just play on with an "oops" if you were actually reasonable about the mistake and we fixed it after the game.
Honestly the fix is putting literally any fetch in the spot of Dakmor. It's not difficult
1
u/rlcnga_ Dan 13h ago
Yeah, I wouldn’t even have a discussion about it. Cuz you don’t even know what you’re arguing for. Someone cannot be this insufferable jesus. The argument was that it’s not an infinite, but you keep insisting on it, and focused on the two cards and fail to evaluate the deck as a whole
1
u/ardarian262 Dân 12h ago
Because it is irrelevant to the question asked about the cEDH level combo being a combo. It is an infinite combo, that sets you up for the next turn win. And you have a lot of ways to benefit from cards in grave such as [[Ramunap excavator]] and other recursion. It also goes card positive over all because if you mill a land you draw a card before the next clean up step.
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u/qh825 Dandadan 23h ago
Based on the bracket guidelines it still looks bracket 2 to me. You can technically combo with gitrog and dakmor salvage but I don't see a way that you can really take advantage of that. But remember, the brackets are guidelines and your intention in how you play your deck is more important to power level matching.