r/navy • u/MuskyElonOfMars • 1d ago
HELP REQUESTED Dealing with problem Sailor
I’m currently dealing with a Sailor who just can’t seem to figure it out.
Bad hygiene, not going to sleep on time, showing up late to watches, not being competent enough to complete maintenance, on EMI, on FEP, on tiered liberty, etc etc.
This Sailor is now at the point where they’ve been counseled and are dancing the line of DRB. They haven’t done anything terrible yet but leading to it.
I need this Sailor to start performing and acting like an adult. They work in a job where I need them to be a little competent.
I’m looking for advice on how to possibly improve this Sailor. I’m looking for creative solutions that others have used. An example I’ve heard is sending Sailors to clean whatever engineering needs cleaned. Stuff similar to that but to encourage the Sailor to improve, appreciate, and learn the job they have.
I want to explore all my options before I send this Sailor to DRB so please don’t recommend that.
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u/buflaux 1d ago
Hey OP. Good on you for trying. I tried a lot in my career and was successful most of the time. But I’ll specifically tell you about the time myself and my shipmates were not successful, because you’re already doing it all.
This dude was the most do nothing mfer I’ve ever met.
No shower, refused to brush his teeth, uniform caked in body grease. Drank Mt. dew, refused to get his drivers license. Kicked out of his roommate’s place for being disgusting and making him late. I gave this dude rides, leveled with him, listened to him, tried to help through PT and he was super nice but completely refused. His level of laziness was beyond anything I’d ever seen, I legit believe it had to be a specific mental illness that I’m not tracking. It wasn’t just me, it was lots of others. He just.. sucked as a coworker. As a person, whatever. He was cool. But no sense of personal responsibility and no anxiety about failing.
He was separated for not getting his pin, back when that was a thing. His senior chief daddy came to pick him up from his base housing.
It was, in the end, better for the Navy that he was separated. I’d never want my or my coworkers’ lives in his hands for any reason.
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u/egelephant 1d ago
Have you told this sailor all of this directly? He may not know that he is standing into danger. Also find out if there is anything going on in his life that could explain why he has been dropping the ball.
Be prepared that not everybody is cut out for the Navy, and this sailor may not be. It is possible that this sailor is just going to make RSCA management easy.
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u/LivingstonPerry 1d ago
Yes, the shitbag sailor has been counselled many times and knows about it. Don't understand being overly sympathy for people when they are consistently late and just suck.
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u/descendency 1d ago
I'm all for sympathy and empathy, but there is a point where you have to accept that some Sailors are just not a fit for the military or they are just not going to be an adult. They just need to be separated.
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u/LivingstonPerry 1d ago
Exactly. There have been times where i've been relived late on watch 1-2hours. Guarantee if this happened to some of the commenters here they would not have the "hey, have a talk with him & see whats going on"
fuck that, if you cant show up to work on time and be where you need to be, you need to be sep'd from the military.
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u/Certain-Salamander10 1d ago
Ride their ass for two weeks, be critical of everything. Hold them accountable for all responsibilities. Near the end of that time find something they did well. Pull them aside and tell them you are proud of x work they did. Watch the switch flip.
90ish% success rate with that technique.
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u/heavenstobetse 14h ago
hey so my leadership did this to me and it genuinely made me want to end my life so…
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u/Still_Tomorrow_1131 17h ago
Praise in public?
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u/Future_Meep 15h ago
No when doing focused individual leadership like this.
A public recognition can seem like a performative act instead of sincerity. By pulling them to the side and praising them it shows a personal engagement. It also gives them the chance to brag about it to their peers.Personally, I used a positive written counseling chit. The Sailor ended up framing it and still has it in their "I love me binder". Its been 10 years.
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u/Old_Goat2009 23h ago
Your Sailor's behavior screams executive dysfunction. They need proper evaluation by a mental health clinician to see if they suffer from ADHD or ASD. The manifestations of these conditions are often written off as laziness or bad behavior and poor decision making.
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u/East-Illustrator-709 1d ago
Have you had a good conversation to understand why they're behaving how they are? I try to create as many opportunities as I can to give positive reinforcement and get to know people on a more personal level.
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u/Copyblade 1d ago
I feel like I've read this exact post a dozen times. Refer them to medical for an ADHD eval.
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u/dawgcomplex 19h ago
Sometimes there isnt a redemption story with a bad sailor. Gotta know when to leave them to their own fate.
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u/meburnallcookies 1d ago
I had a sailor like this, I tasked him to have 5 goals of his own written by the end of the day and to see me.
We talked for an hour and a half of his goals, I gave him resources and we made a small plan, (ex. He was a small guy and wanted to gain weight, I gave him sources, and we draw up a workout plan)
Long story short, he got his act together for the few more weeks he was with me, then he went TAD and transferred a few months earlier than expected. He was kicked out at his next command, about a year in, for being the same mess he was before.
Obviously I have left out a lot of context but the morale of the story is, you can guide people to be better but sometimes they don’t want to. I hope you can help your Sailor out, but sometimes that’s just how they are.
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u/soopygoopy 1d ago
He may be a shit bag, or he could be struggling mentally. Possibly counsel and let him know what you’ve been observing, and see if maybe there is an underlying cause for it and if he needs any resources if anything is going on.
This sounds like me when I was E2/E3 after a traumatizing event. Bad hygiene, sleeping past my alarms, always late. I was counseled multiple times and sent to DRB. I eventually got the help I needed, but looking back, I wish my chain of command would have tried digging into the cause of my bad performance instead of just counseling me and telling me not to do it again.
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u/SamwiseGoody 1d ago
This. I see a lot of people wanting to use the stick, or try to force change. It’s true there are some people out there that this lifestyle is not for, but I would call those exceptional cases.
Treat every “issue” as an opportunity to learn more about your Sailors, and help make a positive impact, if not for them, then yourself.
In this case, my first question would be: Hey, are you ok? You seem to be struggling with the easy parts of life. What’s up? Everything ok at home?
Look, at first this can seem a bit like catering towards weakness, but I guarantee it’s better than yelling or forcing a Sailor out of the Navy that could have been great, for them having some stuff at home that’s living rent free in their head.
I’d rather be the guy who tried to help, then the guy who destroyed a career.
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u/mr_mope 1d ago
Go to your senior enlisted. Not because you can’t handle it, but this isn’t time for you to play leadership scientist. Go to them for some paths forward that are approved, make sure everything gets documented. Documentation is the most important aspect here if you want to have any options after EMI or whatever.
Also you want to double check that any of these “creative solutions” don’t cross any lines. I’ve seen plenty of young LPOs get in trouble for trying some ridiculous stuff. So many of these suggestions amount to “this is what I would do to motivate me, the already motivated sailor” or “I was abused in childhood and now want to take my trauma out on someone else” and don’t have any empathy to understand the other person, don’t really attempt to correct a specific problem, and usually have the opposite effect.
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u/TransportationNo3732 16h ago
Yeah you really only have 2 options.
Everything you’re describing sounds like the best solution would be to work with the sailor and get them over to mental health for a screening.
Second option is to let them learn the hard way.
What’s their temperament? Are they friendly and/or easy to get along with? Maybe giving them a mentor would help. Someone to help steer them in the right direction and start establishing good routines and patterns.
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u/PowerfulSuction 1d ago
Have you communicated to your sailor what you communicated to us?
Specifically, have you asked your sailor how you can help them avoid DRB?
Perhaps your sailor has needs that you haven’t thought of yet.
But also, it’s possible that this sailor just doesn’t have what it takes to be in the military - it’s not for everyone.
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u/DocHose0824 1d ago
Challenge a lot of you in this thread to remember we are all human regardless of the contract we signed and if you haven’t sat down with that sailor and asked about personal/family/home life or other circumstances that could be potentially be causing a distraction you are in the wrong as a leader. One simple conversation could be the difference between a sailor getting out after one contract with a sour taste in their mouths about the Navy or that person turning it around and making it a 20 year career. People first..then everything else will follow
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u/micahpmtn 1d ago
The odds are pretty good (stats don't like), that said sailor is just a shitbag. The world is full of them, and just because he's in the Navy doesn't make him or his situation unique. The amount of coddling that the DOD does nowadays is staggering, and it's across the board in all the services. The odds are even better that he never should have been recruited in the first place.
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u/PettyOfficer4thclass 1d ago
They're probably depressed, and they have little reason to trust their chain of command because the more their chain of command is seen yelling at them publicly, the more everyone else knows they have done their jobs. And as we all know, berating people to the point of self-harm has been the modus operandi of the DOD forever.
If you care about the sailor? Try to understand what's wrong behind the scenes. If you care about your career, keep yelling at them & punishing them as much as possible, then act surprised when they disappear suddenly.
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u/PineappleRemote8823 1d ago
It’s the military man not a daycare
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u/PettyOfficer4thclass 1d ago
Sounds like you fit in with the current administration.
How well is that type of leadership working out right now?
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u/machowarrior 22h ago
Ah yes in classic reddit fashion it always resorts back to Trump. This has nothing do with the Administration. The military has always had people unable to adapt and theres a process to weed them out and rightfully so. Catering to a poor sailor only brings the rest of the department down, who are already putting in more work to compensate for his uselessness.
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u/PettyOfficer4thclass 21h ago
It has everything to do with the administration.
Why do you think all the generals are resigning now?
The military has always had people unable to adapt, and in an efficiently run organization, those people would be removed with a minimal amount of fuss.
But what happens when you put people in charge who enjoy a maximum amount of fuss, like Hegseth?
I just realized - maybe that's why so many people in the military love to vote for incompetent leaders. If we follow absolute morons, we have an excuse for why nothing is accomplished. If we supported capability, we'd actually have expectations put on us.
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u/machowarrior 21h ago
Go back to r/politics.
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u/PettyOfficer4thclass 21h ago
I suppose the fucking commander and chief doesn't relate to the Navy enough, does it?
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u/machowarrior 21h ago
Shoehorning him into every discussion because you decided to make politics your personality doesn't really help anyone.
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u/PettyOfficer4thclass 21h ago
If you don't understand how toxic leadership pervades an entire organization, I am sorry, but you have no experience to be talking about this subject. You are precisely the type of NCO(if you are one) who leads to suicides.
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u/machowarrior 21h ago
Seems like a you problem. If you let who the President is affect you this much you obviously aren't emotionally stable.
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u/PineappleRemote8823 9h ago
I highly dislike this administration but one weak link leads to people dying if you can’t handle basic day to day in the military you need to be separated ptsd from combat is different
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u/PettyOfficer4thclass 9h ago
Agreed. So how did they get through basic? How did they get through their tech school? Why was their recruiter incentivized to just get them through the door despite what may have been obvious disqualifying conditions?
Everyone just assumes that someone else in the organization will handle the problem, and that clearly isn't happening, so the change needs to happen from the top-down.
You all can keep doing it your way. It's clearly working out really well. That's why you have such effective leaders right now.
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u/PineappleRemote8823 9h ago
Your correct it’s the leaders responsibility to correct this behavior either via verbal counseling physical means or just straight telling how shit they are a good leader can make or break people and people need motivation but some people are beyond saving
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u/PettyOfficer4thclass 9h ago
If they're beyond saving, yet got through the pipeline, you understand how there is a systemic problem, correct?
Or were you one of those single-digit ASVABs?
I need to understand if you are beyond saving, too.
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u/AMGS_Initiative 1d ago
Something I've always wanted to try:
Counsel them (formal) with a carrot on the other end instead of a stick.
"Here's where you're at. Here's where we need you to get. Here's when we need to see you there by. When you get there, I'm going to make sure you get ___"
___ can be whatever you think they would appreciate: trust, liberty, respect, fist bump, late arrival, early departure, extended lunch, a position of responsibility, whatever.
Then if they get there, give it to them. Let them enjoy it, and then at some point in short order, give the same thing to everyone else in the dept. If they get mad that the others got it without "working for it" then it can be a teaching moment. If they don't, then they will might be motivated to keep going above and beyond because their good work reflected on the team.
That or tell them they smell like ass and you've seen better kempt logs in the head.
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u/Max6626 23h ago
I obviously don't know this Sailor, but I've seen numerous "bad Sailors" that behave that way because they don't think they are "appreciated" or they don't believe the work they do matters. If this Sailor is one of those, sending them to do grunt-work in the bilges will only make the problem worse.
Ultimately, what you're trying to teach them is responsibility and ownership. Give them a high visibility project and make it very clear that they are personally responsible for it and there will not be anyone else to blame if it goes badly. It should be clearly high visibility so you don't need to explain that part to them - it is implied that they will be embarrassed in front of the crew if it doesn't get done. Most importantly, make it something that you are willing to let fail to prevent you, or anyone else, from jumping in and saving him.
If he/she has any personal pride they will do the job to the best of their ability. Not for you, not for the ship, and not for the Navy - just for their personal pride. This will be a tipping point for this Sailor where they demonstrate if they truly are a burden to the rest of the crew or someone who can, given the right circumstances, step up and do good work.
If they fail, then let them fail and take the appropriate disciplinary actions. In my personal experience in command, if divisional leadership told me a Sailor was a net negative, then I got rid of them.
If they succeed, give them the appropriate credit and even have the CO/XO/DH do a drive by and say "Hey, Petty Officer Dirtbag, you were in charge of X, right? Nice work." It may be this Sailor has never in their lives received positive feedback from an authority figure. It also may be that once they get a taste, they will like it and perform better.
I've had three commands and I've found that the above works far better than disciplining a Sailor by giving them demeaning work as punishment. It doesn't always work - some apparently dirtbag Sailors are actual dirtbags. But when it does work the turn-around can be impressive.
Sorry for the length of this post, but I wanted to offer something more than "send them to the scullery!"
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u/Lost_Treat_6296 16h ago
Sounds like you should advocate that they go to medical.
Those all seem indicative of mental health problems.
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u/ITnewbie2k17 15h ago
Any mentorship provided by someone other than the sailor's immediate division? Sometimes a troubled sailors might have more in common and see things differently coming from someone who is in another department......IJS good luck!!
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u/I_blockkarmafarmers 1d ago
Sounds exactly like undiagnosed and untreated ADHD. You should be sending them to medical for a referral, not mast.
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u/Advanced_Elk_9467 1d ago
1 Are they addicted to video games? Ive seen it multiple times and this js exactly what it looks like.
- Give them purpose- doesn't matter how small they need a job. A job that you can sell as very important.
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u/FOOSblahblah 1d ago
Ive found punishment to be largely ineffective woth people like this. They dint seem to care about it anymore than they do their real work. Moreover, the whole thing theyre doing is trying to be so difficult that no one has the energy to deal with them in the first place.
What I've had success with is getting them to have buy in and ownership of anything. Give them a task (something not super important but mot obvious mindless bullshit) and make clear that you need them to do it because you trust them or need them or whatever you need to say to make them think theyre obi wan and your only hope. Feeling needed is important.
In all honesty it sound like drb is going to be the correct path with what you described. I doubt you can do the thing I said without it being obvious bullshit. That's more a "I see this trend that I need to stop before it gets out of hand" solution. You're firmly in the out of hand place rn I think.
Sucks but some people just aren't a good fit.
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u/DmajCyberNinja 1d ago
You have to find their motivator, whether that's money, family, respect, etc.
Then you have to reshape their relationship with it by restricting or giving access to it based on their performance.
Sounds like you're already doing what you can within the navy for it, and I don't think they're motivator is something you can really influence. Some people just aren't for the navy. Like if this person only cares about being in a fur suit doing whatever, outside of telling him if they get their quals they can go home earlier to do it, you can't level with them or do much else.
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u/AncientGuy1950 19h ago
Sounds like a 'train through pain' situation. Not that the Navy allows such things anymore.
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u/EveningCut4502 17h ago
Let them go to DRB it’s really not your problem if they can’t act like an adult, that’s nobody’s problem, but theirs. They clearly just don’t care. it’ll just be right up after right up until they’re finally separated
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u/kakarota 16h ago
You know i joined the military at 27 and having lived most of my 20s having regular jobs. Nothing puts the fear of homelessness like being bad at your job.
Than I get to the Navy and there is no "fear" of losing your job or income. If i decide to be a shitbag the worst that can happen gettings yelled at and probably extra duty.
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u/Devilfish664 15h ago
I had a sailor like yours. I bent over backwards for this kid, stuck my neck out more than once with the command.
I hated counseling chats, however started using them. The breaking point was when he failed his qual board. We were coming back off a 6 month deployment. Prior to pulling in, I arranged study sessions and checkouts for his re-board during our stand down. He wasn't going on leave and would be on dink study.
After we pulled in I went on leave and while on leave I received a phone call he skipped the study sessions and was UA on more than one dink study.
On return from leave I had a sit down with him trying to find out what was going on with him. Told him, if he continued this path he would get kicked out. He said and I quote, "you can't kick me out." At that point I was done. Told him you'll be out by the end of February and I won't have to do a thing. All I had to do is give him the rope.
Well, I was wrong, he was ADSEPPED mid March.
Moral of the story, no matter how much you try and help some people, it doesn't matter.
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u/Anxious_Purple_400 10h ago
Document and document!! Talk with your chief, they may do a paeudo DRB to try and get to the root of the causes and get them straight! DRB doesn’t always result in mast and can be a useful tool!
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u/Martymations 7h ago
Counseling chits leads to report chits which leads to separation. In addition to that have their evaluation appropriately reflect their actions. It seems having a conversation about the path they are on is doing nothing so if you really don’t trust this sailor to do what’s required, well that’s what the skullery or berthing cleaners are for. I’m sure deck can put a paint roller in their hand or put them on the lookout watch rotation.
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u/International-Net609 1d ago
Have you considered minding your business and letting him fail because it’s his life?
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u/TheAmishPhysicist 20h ago
Sounds like he’s playing the long con to get a high mental health percentage from the VA when he’s separated. And from the sound of it that may be soon.
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u/Bulbakip 1d ago
He needs friends and lots and lots of PT.
The division will meet for 530 am PT until this Sailors morale and qualifications improves.
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u/Low-Recognition-7293 1d ago
You need a senior person to take them under there wing 24/7. To entrain them in everything they do.
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