r/negativeutilitarians Oct 18 '24

For charities, careers, discord chat — Read This !

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4 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 10h ago

The virtues of virtue signaling. Sometimes we need to flaunt our virtue - Holly Elmore

5 Upvotes

Source

We all hate virtue signalling, right? Talk is cheap, and performances of virtue can be utterly bankrupt. Sam Bankman-Fried brazenly described his “talking about ethics” before the FTX crash as “this dumb game we woke westerners play where we say all the right shibboleths and so everyone likes us”, confirming the internet’s worst suspicions about conspicuous displays of “virtue”.

But, despite all this, I believe the pendulum has swung too far against virtue signalling. Virtue signalling is bad when signalling virtue is confused for possessing the virtue and when possessing a virtue is confused for having a good effect upon the world. It is at its worst when all your energy goes to signalling virtue at the expense of actually doing anything good. But sometimes we do have something to prove, whether to others or just ourselves, and we aren’t off the hook just because it’s possible to lie. Quality signals of virtue, especially costly signals that are difficult to fake, are very useful tools– sometimes the only tools we have for assessing character. The best virtue signals are not empty assertions– they offer some proof of their claim by being difficult to fake.

Imagine if a company like Nabisco took the stance that it didn’t have anything to prove about the safety and quality of its food, and that their current extensive food safety testing was just a virtue signal that wastes a bunch of time and product. They could be sincere, and somehow keep product quality and safety acceptably high, but they would be taking away our way of knowing that. Quality control is a huge part of what it is to sell food, and monitoring your character is worthy of consuming a large portion of your life.

Some signals are more correlated with actual virtue than others. The best virtue signals are not empty assertions– they offer some proof of their claim by being difficult to fake. For example, being vegan takes a great deal of forethought, awareness, and requires regular social sacrifice. Veganism proves a dedication to a cause like animal rights or environmentalism proportional to the level of sacrifice required. The virtuous sacrifice of being vegan isn’t what makes veganism good for the animals or the environment, but it is a costly signal of character traits associated with the ability to make such a sacrifice.

So the virtue signal of veganism doesn’t mean you are necessarily having a positive impact or that veganism is the best choice, but it does indicate that you as a person are committed, conscientious, gentle, or deeply bought into the cause such that the sacrifice becomes easier for you than it would be for other people. Being vegan isn’t enough to prove you’re a good person, but it is a demonstration of character and acting out your values.


r/negativeutilitarians 1d ago

The Moral Importance of Reflective Empathy - Ingmar Persson & Julian Savulescu | Neuroethics

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2 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 1d ago

30 years since the publication of Morals, reason and animals - Animal Ethics

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1 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 2d ago

Leenaert talks with Thom Norman on wether we should ask people to offset their meat consumption instead of going vegan

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2 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 3d ago

I'm Not a Speciesist; I'm Just a Utilitarian - Brian Tomasik

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5 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 4d ago

What are the trade-offs between animal welfare and the environmental impact of meat? - Hannah Ritchie | Our World in Data

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4 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 4d ago

You Can Save More Animals by Donating $100 Than Going Vegan - Jim Davies

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nautil.us
0 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 5d ago

The limits of language: Why words can never fully capture reality - Steven Rouk

7 Upvotes

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All of reality simply is what it is — the words we use to describe reality are useful, but they are imperfect models of reality itself.

We can predict the weather with greater and greater accuracy, but we will never be able to predict the exact shape, position, and landing spot of every raindrop. To do that, we would have to be the storm itself.

I may describe a sunset in beautiful detail, painting vivid reds, pinks, and oranges for your mind’s eye. In fact, if I am a very good writer, you may feel more awe and inspiration from reading my words than you would from actually having been there yourself. Yet it would be impossible to capture a sunset fully in words. For that, you would need to be the sun and the earth.

So too, when it comes to describing our internal, subjective experiences—our minds, our thoughts, our feelings, our emotions, our desires. The best writers and speakers are those who can do this translation so well that we read their words and say “Yes! That’s how it feels.” But many of us may not have such refined tools of expression—nor, perhaps, a carefully calibrated instrument for inspecting our inner worlds in the first place.

To calibrate our instruments, we must first and above all—pay attention. And yet, always we must remember that words are but a fuzzy translation of the infinitely deep reality that we exist in. This doesn’t demean words—it isn’t an insult. I am among the biggest fans of well-placed, well-thought words.

It’s just a note on things and how they are. Something to pay attention to.


r/negativeutilitarians 5d ago

Qualia of the stages of insight or the seasons of life on the path (Theravada Buddhism) - Roger Thisdell

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3 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 6d ago

How to integrate the sense of the relative and the ultimate - Roger Thisdell

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3 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 7d ago

On Overcoming Nihilism, the view that nothing matters - Roger Thisdell

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2 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 8d ago

Common misconceptions about effective altruism - Dawn Drescher

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impartial-priorities.org
2 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 9d ago

A thought experiment that questions the moral importance of creating happy lives - Magnus Vinding

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centerforreducingsuffering.org
10 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 10d ago

Debating Vasco Grilo About Soil Nematodes, Longtermism, and Whether Impacts on Small Organisms Dominate - Bentham's Bulldog

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5 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 11d ago

Lawrence interviews Julie Reshe about negative psychoanalysis and why positivity is an invisible ideology

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2 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 12d ago

We Must Remember That Our World Contains Hell

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12 Upvotes

I argue that there are multiple ways in which our world contains profound suffering, and I suggest that we should do something about it.


r/negativeutilitarians 13d ago

Mild welfarism and infinite ethics - Stijn Bruers

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2 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 13d ago

A Post Singularity society would have a moral duty to radically restructure the Earth's biosphere.

8 Upvotes

Otherwise it would be allowing an enormous amount of meaningless suffering of all nonhuman animals living on Earth, simply because evolution doesn't care about their wellbeing, only their viability to reproduce.

I have not seen much discussion of this topic although the closest I've seen is the Abolitionist Project.


r/negativeutilitarians 14d ago

Should we be concerned about the welfare of insects? - David Pearce

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13 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 14d ago

Rethinking Suffering and Lexicality in the name of Epistemic Humility

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1 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 15d ago

Do primitive sentient organisms feel extreme pain? disentangling intensity range and resolution - Wladimir J. Alonso & Cynthia Schuck

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forum.effectivealtruism.org
9 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 15d ago

More animal farming increases animal welfare if soil animals have negative lives? - Vasco Grilo

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forum.effectivealtruism.org
2 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 15d ago

Lexical Views Without Abrupt Breaks - Magnus Vinding

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centerforreducingsuffering.org
4 Upvotes

r/negativeutilitarians 16d ago

Caring about Bugs Isn’t Weird - Bob Fischer

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7 Upvotes