r/peloton • u/PelotonMod France • 2d ago
Weekly Post Weekly Question Thread
For all your pro cycling-related questions and enquiries!
You may find some easy answers in the FAQ page on the wiki. Whilst simultaneously discovering the wiki.
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u/No_Debt5142 1d ago
who do we see having the biggest chance at winning the worlds this year now that pog will most likely miss it?
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u/Mamadeus123456 7-Eleven 1d ago
Belgium in general, whether that's Remco, Van Aert or someone else it's hard to tell.
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u/Team_Telekom Team Telekom 1d ago
Wout will have a shot if tactics play a big role but Remco is the clear favourite in a traditionally ridden WC.
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u/Ok-Understanding-968 7h ago
No Pog means they can now select Wellens without the fear he'll phone it in. (only half joking)
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u/Purpl3Unicorn 1d ago
The world is not ready for champion Quinn Simmons.
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u/No_Debt5142 1d ago
not happening. maybe if he doesnt attack 20 times before the 60km mark he might have a chance
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u/LiberalClown 1d ago
Remco has had a lot of luck on his side this year. That isn't to say he couldn’t make the Tour podium in second place or be the favorite for the Worlds double, but it was far from guaranteed. In the Worlds road race, Mathieu and Wout will still be big rivals, but I think Remco holds the edge.
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u/cyclisme2020 1d ago
Is Tom Pidcock riding the road world championships? Just wondering if he could win two rainbow jerseys in one calendar year.
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u/cfkanemercury France 1d ago
I think he'll be there, and he has a chance.
I think PFP held the 2014 road race title when she won the CX and MTB world titles in 2015.
MVDP has done the CX and road titles in the same year in 2023, and Kopecky held road and two track WC titles (Points, Elimination) in that same year.
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u/GFoxtrot United Kingdom 1d ago
I think he will be riding.
Fuck it, make it 3 and get him to ride CX WC in the same season.
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u/Whitebread100 1d ago
You are happy that there are now multiple riders who can fight for the Vuelta GC.
I am happy that there is a chance that somebody actually wears the beautiful European Champions jersey besides Demi.
We are not the same.
It is mostly speculation but we think Tadej will be able to ride WC and/or EC?
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u/myfatearrives 1d ago
I'd be really surprise even to see him able to race Lombardia. I'm pretty fine to see a new winner in EC or WC but it's really a pity that the Lombardia streak and the potential best-ever monument season shut down in this way.
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u/Prudent_Concept_261 23h ago
Monkey paw curls and Remco wins the double for both. The eu jersey remains invisible.
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u/Green9Love16 1d ago
I've spent most of yesterday embroiled in shouting at French ppl (and being shouted at) on twitter (I should know better, but alas...)
The subject? What is better/worse to watch: Pog-style dominance or equally matched non-aliens?
It seems to me that there is a fundamental difference in how people watch/enjoy cycling (and other sports), which I've dubbed the DOMINANCE-SUSPENSE GAP
I'm firmly team suspense (yesterday was EPIC) and the only time I'm team dominance is when I know it's because of my own tribal biases (Jonas, I love you).
Thus it is very easy to think all ppl in team dominance are just motivated by fanboyish tendencies and possibly vicariously living through dominant athletes to compensate for its deeply felt lack in their own lives, but maybe that's not a fair assessment.
So my question is to people in team dominance: what do you get out of repeatedly watching the same person dominate, where a win is basically guaranteed? How does that compensate for a lack of suspense? Or maybe suspense is not your main motivation to watch sports? I'm truly interested and I'm open to being shouted at again ;-)
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u/Team_Telekom Team Telekom 1d ago
This is a well studied phenomenon called BIRGing in psychology: “Basking in Reflected Glory”.
People who admire excellence and are achievements oriented often tend t owards dominance. These people often enhance their own self esteem by the success of their idol.
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u/gou_2611 1d ago
Super interesting. It's not my field, but I've found a scientific article on something similar during the World Cup earlier this year. It was about the psychological profile of supporters between Messi and Cristiano: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=6803399
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u/cuccir 1d ago
I enioy watching new achievements, or riders building towards new achievements.
To that end, I can enjoy Pogacar going to complete his Grand Tour set at the Vuelta, or stretching his Tour wins towards a record, etc. Win 5 was much better than win 4, for that reason
I get less from him extending his Giro di Lombardias, Lieges, getting his second Worlds, etc, but if he gets closer to the Mercx Monumnet record I'll probably start enjoying some of them again. If (when?) he has everything won, the excitement will diminish further.
So for me it's about context. A 50km attack to win a race he's won 4 times already? Dull. A 50km to win his first Paris-Roubaix, or whatever? Brilliant.
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u/DueAd9005 1d ago edited 1d ago
Thus it is very easy to think all ppl in team dominance are just motivated by fanboyish tendencies and possibly vicariously living through dominant athletes to compensate for its deeply felt lack in their own lives, but maybe that's not a fair assessment.
As someone who suffers from depression/anxiety, I definitely get a (short lived) boost of endorphines when one of my favorite riders wins, so it's honestly kind of true. Still, I don't wish for bad things to happen to cyclists I don't like or am neutral about. I support for certain riders, but I try not to cheer against riders. Because I know how awful it can feel when you see one of your favorite riders go down in a bad crash (and as a Remco/Wout fan, I have plenty of experience with that).
Personally I prefer suspense, although I make an exception for when Remco dominates (although it's been a while since he's done a long solo). Lombardia is a race I want him to really win (given what happened there in 2020).
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u/aarets_frebe 1d ago
Very interesting discussion, very glad to see it taken up in such a calm and interested manner. My five cents (written somewhat in a stream of consciousness, so apologies that it is a little messy):
For what its worth, I think I subscribe to some version of the citius, altius, fortius-motto as what constitutes the most fundamental ingredient in what makes sports fascinating, including cycling, which is why I (mostly) don't mind Pogacar, van der Poel, and Vingegaard being as dominant as they often are - their dominance is not like (most of) Froome or Armstrong's reigns, where matters were mostly settled in the final kms of the stage (some of especially the later Froome's very commendable rides nonwithstanding). I also enjoyed watching Usain Bolt racing the 100 and 200 meters at athletics meets, watching Roger Federer win the Wimbledon without dropping a set, and will happily tune in to see if Mondo Duplantis sets a new world record, regardless of whether his competition is anywhere near him. That is, I think, my basic position on the matter. Call it "witnessing greatness" if you want. I firmly belief that sport is more exciting with this greatness than without it. One very insightful comment in one of the Vuelta-threads in here explained how GT-racing used to be all about saving yourself, only expending energy at the most crucial points, whereas Pogacar and Vingegaard have instead ushered in a way of racing that is more about strategically making every stage as hard as possible. I find that shift deeply fascinating, and fundamentally more enjoyable than the GT-racing I grew up with in the 00's and early 2010's.
This is not to say that I don't think tactics, mindgames, and smarter riders outfoxing the stronger aren't both enjoyable and an important part of cycling. They are, and have been for as long as I know. It is also not to say that complete inevitability is thrilling - I agree that LBL was the worst race on the WorldTour from 2022-2025 (I don't know which race deserves the honour this year). But in my eyes, unpredictability can never be the whole story, and is fundamentally secondary to seeing the best riders perform their best. I think it is also indicative hereof that a lot of those who crave more suspense don't just crave in the sport as such, but specifically crave it at the biggest occasions where the peloton is made up of the best athletes. The suspense is desired among the best, not just in 1.1 races (and people get extremely upset in here, when some users - not me, I don't dare - suggest that if is suspense you want, there are plenty of smaller one day- and stage races where the eventual outcome is anything but given ahead of time).
The best outcome is of course if we can have both, such as (in my eyes) the two first weeks of the 2023 Tour, the Ronde from the same year, this years MSR and Roubaix, and the like - races where the best riders trade blows, take the biggest races to new heights, and rewrite the the way they are or can be ridden. But given that the best of both worlds is only rarely an option - not just right now, but also historically speaking - I will always prefer attacking and dominant racing over apprehensive but unpredictable racing. Crudely exemplified, I will always prefer Pogacar's win on Alpe d'Huez this year to Geraint Thomas' win there in 2018, I will prefer any of his wins in Flanders to the unpredictable but (to me) completely unspectacular edition in 2019, and above all, I prefer any dominant mountain stage performance in a GT by either Vingegaard or Pogacar to the kind of GC racing that to me is exemplified most clearly by Luz Ardiden in 2011, where the favorites where so evenly matched that they didn't start racing till the final few kilometers, and where such hard terrain in the Pyrenees was squandered (a stage that made me so angry as teenager that I have never been able to let it go). I bet there a tonnes of logical faults in this position, but that is my quick (though not that quick, I see) recap of where I stand on the matter.
TL;DR: Impressive performances AND suspense about the outcome of a race are of course the ideal, but I believe the former to be a more fundamental part of what makes sports fascinating and enjoyable, and so, given the hypothetical choice, I'll take a spectacularly dominating performance over more apprehensive racing with a more unpredictable outcome.
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u/gou_2611 1d ago
I wonder how much the nature of the sport AND the degree of involvement of the person watching influences some of these points. That is, I think a vast majority of people enjoyed Bolt's records, but it seems to me something much less passionate and involved, and more like appreciating something for the sake of the achievement than hardcore fans. Similarly, a 100m race lasts less than 10s, so it's easy to hop on, witness greatness, and move on with life. I suppose a 21-day race being decided in the first days (or even before its beginning, like this year's Vuelta) might lead to different weights allocated between suspense and "performance".
There's also something to be said about what constitutes the sport itself. A 100m sprint is purely physical, not having a lot of space for tactics, strategy, teamwork or even aesthetics. Whereas other sports, like football, basketball, rugby, have those aspects much more present in their chemistry, which can also affect supporter's preferences. Say, the increase in supporters worldwide for FC Barcelona due to their attacking and fluid style (including things done on the pitch that you could not see anywhere else), whereas successful defensive clubs like Chelsea and Inter Milano being hated due to their style. I think cycling and F1 share some DNA on this aspect, where competitions are mainly about the results and there's not really an aesthetic element involved, with massive dominance (be Pogi or Hamilton) partially turning off audiences as well.
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u/Guiltynu Sky 1d ago
I’m always fascinated by the hive mind around it as it ebbs and flows. I always think there it’s important to remember that people have wider loyalties that often come into play when they find racing “boring” or “exciting”, there is also a shed load of recency bias. If you were transported back to the 2010s where the racing tended to be more like yesterday, you would find a lot of people complaining about the lack of attacks. When Froome did the giro attack and the first jonas/pogi tours people’s minds were rightly blown. The pendulum has swung the other way on here at least I think. If you gave people matched racing where no one can stick an attack, people would be bored again pretty quickly.
Personally I enjoy seeing palmeres get built and stacking them up against the past, I enjoy the big picture narratives even if seeing jonas or tadej disappear can get a repetitive. So I probably sit on the dominance side of the debate in my heart. But having said that I loved Kuss winning the vuelta, alaphilippe’s ride and die, or Tao winning the Giro.
As i refer too above, what frustrates me at times is when people are pretty blatantly using biases around particular teams or riders to utilise arguments that gts are boring but if a rider you preferred was winning then it would be fine. For example if you find tadej dull but love watching Mvdp or Jonas race relatively uncontested, I’m not saying everyone is doing that but there are definitely some.
What frustrates me even more, is the implication that enjoying dominance, to use your terminology, somehow makes you a casual, whereas enjoying suspense somehow makes you some hardcore fan. I was taking downvotes reporting less interest in the vuelta now that tadej is out. Like some of us enjoy reading biographies of Hinault and Merckx, I’ll enjoy the rest of the vuelta, and I’m sure I would enjoy Mas/Roglic/Gall/Onley winning. But I’m not going to read a biography of mas’s career in 30 years time whereas I’m sure I will read about tadej and jonas as an old man. So I’d rather see them add to their respective legends.
Anyway in general, try not to get too wound up be people online and enjoy it on your own terms. But it’s easier said than done :)
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u/DocTheYounger 1d ago edited 1d ago
I fundamentally disagree that there is no suspense involved for placements after 1st
Yesterday’s stage would’ve still been incredibly exciting and suspenseful with Pog up the road by 3 minutes. Gall still would’ve attacked G2 multiple times, Mas likely still would’ve pulled off the counterattack
Biggest downside is coverage limitations, usually end up with too much video of Pog solo and crossing the finish line and too little of the battles in G2 and G3
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u/Green9Love16 1d ago
I agree with you there, in the sense that my personal tactics for keeping things interesting during Pog-races is to simply ignore him and focus on 2nd & 3rd places. For example, I really enjoyed last Tuesday's Mas/Rogla/Kuss shenanigans.
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u/myfatearrives 1d ago
I feel watching record-breaking performances in sports field (not only limited in cycling) could be satisfying. Some kind of neophilia or similar thing maybe.
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u/AliasPhilippe Euskaltel Euskadi 1d ago
Just saying, yesterdays's Vuelta stage is how cycling used to be before Sky.
How can someone would prefer to ''witness greatness'' than this?
I've witnessed too much history in my lifetime, I don't need it even in cycling lol.
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u/cfkanemercury France 1d ago
In the men's 100m final at the Beijing Olympics Richard Thompson finished in 9.89 seconds. There were four other runners within 0.08 of a second of his time, and even the slowest in the race finished just 0.14 behind Thompson. The first five runners were separated by just 80cm at the tape, an incredibly close race...
...but of course they were all racing for silver because Usain Bolt was 0.2 seconds faster than Thompson. There was a bigger gap between gold medal Bolt and the silver medal than there was between the silver medal and every other runner.
Maybe it would have been more exciting to watch five runners dive for the line in a photo finish, but it sure is something else to witness one guy way out in front, running faster than any human had ever run before at the time, and even visibly slowing down by the time he hit the tape because he was just that good.
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u/SmeaaKol 1d ago
For me, this can be an absolutely amazing thing to witness (and it was) but watching it all the time is not the same thing. The races where he is the all out super favorite is not interesting anymore. To me, only MSR and PR are interesting with him because there's competition and not a foregone conclusion.
I'm a swede and I feel the same way regarding Armand Duplantis, watching him beat the WR the first couple of times was amazing but then it became just boring to follow because there was never any competition. Only recently has he been challenged and made competitions exciting to follow again.
Im sure all of this is just extremely subjective either way.
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u/vertblau France 22h ago
Think the main difference here is that the 100m lasts less than 10s while a GT lasts 3 weeks
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u/cfkanemercury France 19h ago
You're right of course, but the level of dominance was comparable even if the event is shorter.
Bolt went more than three years without losing a 200m final, and two years without losing a 100m final. He holds (or held) world's best records for the 200m for 15, 16, 17, and 18 year olds, as well as the world record for adults. His events might be shorter, but the level of dominance was real and sustained - and amazing to watch.
I don't know a lot of track and field fans so I don't know how many spent years saying how boring it was that Bolt was winning the 100m almost every time he raced, but I do know I tuned in to watch an almost sure-thing because someone that good is just a pleasure to watch.
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u/vertblau France 19h ago
I do think what you write in the 3rd paragraph is relevant too. The 100m for the vast majority of people is something they watch every 4 years for 10 seconds at the Olympics. Or maybe once a year at most if you also watch the Worlds etc. Very different to how the dedicated cycling fans on this sub or even the people who just watch the Tour every year (among whom Pogačar fanboyism is more represented already) watch cycling.
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u/DueAd9005 17h ago
The 2024 Olympics 100M was amazing, such a close finish.
But I would never compare cycling races (which lasts hours/weeks) to a fast event like the 100 meters tbh.
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u/29da65cff1fa Canada 16h ago edited 15h ago
how did roglic recover from turning heel in the 2023 vuelta? (trying to take GC from kuss)
i still like him... but when i think about it, it's one of the most despicable things i've ever seen in cycling....
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u/Glass_Minute4753 13h ago
I never understand why Roglic gets pilloried for this and Jonas doesn't. Didn't Jonas attack and take time out of Kuss multiple times?
Ultimately, it was the team's fault for not making a clear decision sooner. Once they did, Roglic stopped trying to take time.
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u/29da65cff1fa Canada 12h ago
hmmm, i guess my memory of the events is fuzzy.....
i thought it was roglic who attacked sepp first, and then jonas chased roglic down and told him they were working for sepp
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u/thegranturisto 9h ago
I recommend not making accusations if your memory about the events is fuzzy. You could always rewatch it.
- Jonas attacked GC Kuss on Stage 13 - won the stage and gained 0:30 on GC Kuss.
- Jonas attacked GC Kuss on Stage 16 - won the stage, gained 1:05 on GC Kuss, overtook Rogla in GC (cutting the lead to just 29 seconds).
- Rogla has enough of the internal shenanigans on Stage 17. Rogla attacks and Jonas stays with him. Rogla won the stage, but Jonas loses the GC by just 8 seconds. GC Kuss arrives in red by miracle (good sportsmanship from Landa).
Visma had no reason to do it against their opponents as the closest competitor on Stage 17 is Landa who literally pulls Kuss to the top and gives away bonus seconds. If Landa doesn't pull and attacks GC Kuss at the end for the bonus seconds, Jonas takes over the red jersey and possibly wins the Vuelta. During and after the race, interviews reveal frustration between Jonas and Rogla. The whole GC Kuss fight gets a media spin from Visma. This sub gets unreal bias as a consequence.
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u/Glass_Minute4753 1h ago
As u/thegranturisto has summed up, Roglic gets criticised for something that Jonas was also doing. If you look at the final standings, Jonas only finished 17 seconds behind Kuss, as a result of attacking and taking time on Kuss on three stages. On two of those stages, Roglic finished with Kuss or only a couple of seconds ahead. It's just that Roglic was open about wanting to win the Vuelta, whereas Jonas always had some other reason for attacking (I'm sure one stage was after Nathan van Hooydonck's accident, and the other was his daughter's birthday or something like that). But that doesn't disguise the fact that he still took significant time out of Kuss each time. And then when Roglic later attacked on the Angliru stage, Jonas went with him rather than staying with Kuss, because seemingly he cared more about Roglic not beating him than he did about Kuss's GC. It was Mikel Landa who helped Kuss on that stage, by riding with him while his teammates both attacked him.
I probably sound quite harsh on Jonas here, but actually I think everything he did was fine. It was a race, and it was the fault of the team management for not deciding to support Kuss fully soone. But I do think that it is very unfair for Roglic to get criticised, when Jonas did the exact same thing, on more occasions!!
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u/Natural_Fill9344 Portugal 1d ago
Will UAE extend the Oliveira twins' contract? That's my main concern this summer. I hope so.
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u/Team_Telekom Team Telekom 1d ago
It seems from the rumors I heard we will witness the next win breakup. A tragedy.
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u/andycunn26 EF Education – Easypost 1d ago
What’s the deal with hotels/restaurants at the top of a mountain pass? Great that the whole peloton had a place to hide from the hail, but i’ve always wondered how those places are able to survive being in such remote locations.
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u/Team_Telekom Team Telekom 1d ago
In the southern European touristy places these are astonishingly viable. Many people come over these passes and since they are so remote, oftentimes the only option. And they oftentimes have a nice view, so people will be motivated to stop.
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u/andycunn26 EF Education – Easypost 1d ago
I figured that was the case! I imagine in the heyday of car travel it would take a bit longer to get up and folks would stop for lunch or a break before descending.
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u/jair1001 2d ago
So in the last few days I've been wondering, what is the accepted "code" when the leader crashes?
I remember a few years ago in Tdff, the infamous "something yellow on the ground" incident, where Kasia immediately started pushing, even before Demis condition was known. At the time noone thought much of it, most critiques were towards Sdworx, while what Kasia did was accepted as a fair game.
Compare this with how Pogi's crash has been handled - self neutralization on a, ok, not a huge climb, but still a climb that could have given some benefits to specific riders, not necessarily related to GC.
Is there some code of conduct that determines what is fine and what is not to do in such situations, because setting irrelevant details aside both incidents seem the same to me?
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u/marnyr Movistar 2d ago
Niewiadoma/Vollering situation was in the last 10k of the stage and the "real" race for the punchy finish was already on. Yes, Canyon started pushing harder, but IIRC they were already riding on the front when Demi crashed. And I would also say there are less, if any, unwritten rules in women's bunch. And why should anyone wait for Vollering if even her teammates ignored her?
Pogacar crashed with 30k to go, with no break ahead, with an easy upcoming climb where dropping the sprinters would be unlikely anyway. Additionally Pog has shown (even in this race, see hailstorm neutralisation) that he is a peloton's leader, so it's not a surprise he is respected by the others. GC teams pushing would have also made no sense if he was fine, because it would be bad optics and wouldn't change anything anyway.
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u/Ok-Understanding-968 1d ago
Kasia and Canyon did get a decent amount of criticism after that stage. I'd say it was closer to a 50/50 split among the audience as to whether it was OK or not.
That crash was also a lot more chaotic as it was closer to the finish and almost half the peleton were held up. There was no way the riders out front were going to self-neutralise even if Kasia slowed down.
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u/myfatearrives 1d ago
I think that showing respect to yourself and everyone else is necessary to win respect from others. Vollering's incident is not even "respected" by her team, so it's nonsense to talk about her opponents. Pog has shown respect to others in former races, so similar respect from others is simply what he deserves; and the moment he crashed and quitted the race was not a key point for the stage, it's pretty silly to push there for others, ruining their reputation for nearly nothing to gain.
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u/jair1001 1d ago
I do agree with you overall, but in Demi's case, there wasn't enough time to assess that "if the team does not give her respect, we won't either", as I remember Canyon and Kasia started immediately pushing, no one told them that Wiebes is not picking up Demi, so its free game.
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u/gou_2611 1d ago
Pogi's unfortunate accident affects the odds of the remaining major races of the season. Considering that a comeback won't be possible before the end of the year (which we still cannot be sure of), who would you pick for the top spots of WC, EC, and Il Lombardia?
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u/Team_Telekom Team Telekom 1d ago
Based on LBL the favourite for Lombardia should be Seixas. Worlds should be Remco, EC is tricky as it’s not super attritional but the climb is super steep, so it’s more like Flèche than any other race. Which points also to Seixas.
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u/DueAd9005 1d ago
That's assuming Remco will have his spring weight/shape however. I hope that won't be the case. In his Tour shape he will be much better for races like Lombardia imo.
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u/Glass_Minute4753 1d ago
My heart wants Wout to win the WC so badly, but I think Remco is the clear favourite.
To be honest, I'm worried that we are just going to swap Pogacar long solos for Remco doing exactly the same thing.
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u/GFoxtrot United Kingdom 1d ago
There was chat yesterday on the gravel EC about Wout going to Aus for gravel WC, unlikely I think?
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u/prettycozy001 Ireland 1d ago
He has been training and racing on gravel quite a bit, ordinarily I would think that suggests he will but the fact that Montreal and Australia are two weeks apart feels like a lotttt of travelling
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u/Extension-Problem-64 Red Bull – Bora – Hansgrohe 1d ago
Why doesn't UAE rule out WC/EC/Lombardia for Pogi? Do they really think he can magically recover in such a short time?
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u/DWHQ FDJ United - SUEZ 1d ago
Found this tidbit:
"Pogacar - injury prognosis update:
In the image from social media that Pogacar himself posted, he is lying with a soft and not rigid - cervical collar on.
A (very) cautious guess is that it could indicate a fracture in the spinous process part of the C7 vertebra and not in the body part - where the cervical collar treatment regimen in Denmark is significantly stricter and longer - 2 versus 12 weeks.
If that's true, it's not unrealistic to see Pogacar at the Euros and Worlds, if he can manage to rehab sufficiently in time.
Thanks to my skilled colleague in orthopedic surgery at Aarhus University Hospital, Kasper, for spotting it."
https://x.com/simkjr/status/2094372672184434884
xcancel doesn't work anymore, if anyone has a mirror that'd be great.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ 1d ago
It's not up to his trade team to select him for the Euros or Worlds, that's up to the Slovenian federation. Plus in general doctors need time to fully asses his injuries before making any estimate on his recovery, which he himself might not immediately want to share with the world, so we just have to be patient.
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u/epi_counts PelotonPlus™ 18h ago
There were a few redditors / discord users who took over a sub that was sexualising female cyclists (as referenced in this CyclingNews article at the time) and cleaned it up. Another one has popped up that's gaining some traction - don't want to post the link as that would just get it more attention, but as reporting to reddit doesn't do much, would anyone with experience of flooding a sub like that with wholesome content be interested in taking on another one?
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u/rokstar66 2d ago
Why don’t pros use larger bottles, especially when its hot? It looks like they use the 550 ml bottles, which seems inefficient. I always use 750 ml.
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u/quentiniverson 13h ago
not a question but
did anyone see the UI of which riders were in which group from the philadelphia cyclic classic?
i wish they could incorporate that into more UCI events
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u/DWHQ FDJ United - SUEZ 1d ago
Pogačar Medical Update
via https://x.com/BriSmithy/status/2094495018232807910