r/reddevils • u/CrebTheBerc • Jul 09 '19
[META] "In The Know' Announcement Thread
Good morning/afternoon/ebening y'all!
Now that everyone's had a bit to calm down and the mod team had time to discuss, we want to address what happened yesterday and talk about the state of the sub moving forward.
Firstly: we can again confirm that /u/spoofex has deleted his account and stepped down from the moderation team as a result of abuse he received. Whether you agreed or disagreed with his posting methods, I hope we can all agree that abuse is over the line. We do want to be clear though, this is not about Spoofex in particular. Multiple users have face unwarranted abuse and we believe that a line needs to be drawn on the situation.
As a side note, we are not currently looking for more moderators to replace his spot. We will address mod numbers at a later time
Secondly: We are discontinuing the Muppet Thread. Having multiple transfer threads has led to unfortunate divisions within the sub. We will therefore be condensing all transfer talk into one thread, the transfer thread, pursuant to the transfer thread rules currently in place. If you would like to discuss other United related events or have less serious discussion, please use the Daily Discussion thread.
Thirdly: We are banning any "ITK" posts. It has been difficult to truly verify the validity of these types of users and led to abusive behavior and even doxxing in some cases.
We are more than happy to have people discussing transfer news and rumors, but there will be no more referencing unknown sources at the club. Moving forward, anyone who believes they have inside info a la bloodgate is welcome to send in a modmail. However such posts/comments made without prior mod approval will be removed
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub, within the sub, and towards other subs has been too high. We as moderators have our share of blame in this, but we want to stress that this kind of behavior is not acceptable and we are taking these measures primarily to avoid these things. We want /r/reddevils to be a place where anyone and everyone is welcome to discuss and enjoy the best club on earth without fear of abuse or ridicule.
Which leads us to 2 other small reminders. The report button is your friend, we are way more likely to find and remove and/or ban rule breaking comments if you report them. The downvote button is not a "I disagree or don't like your statement button", better discussion is generally had by using the upvote button more liberally and avoiding the downvote one whenever possible.
To add to the above, it is not unlikely that we as a sub will face ridicule from other subs. There's no need to retaliate in kind. If people come to the sub looking to cause problems please report them and move on. If you don't want to face those kinds of comments, we would encourage you to either ignore the comments themselves or stay off of those subs short term.
As a small aside, anyone coming here from Twitter: Please read over the rules and be aware of both those and general posting etiquette.
Fifthly: In speaking with the the users running the muppetiers account, we understand that as a result of these planned changes they have made the decision to open the muppetiers sub for muppet-related discussion. For anyone that enjoys muppetry and/or ITK stuff, you are all welcome to participate there (and here, as well), but we have made the decision to focus this sub on more substantial discussion and will be avoiding those subjects as mentioned.
Now, this post will also stand as a discussion point on the above subject or a place for users to ask questions. Please understand that there are some things we cannot or will not discuss but we will be as transparent as possible.
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u/Bombtwo Now say my name Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
The downvote button is not a "I disagree or don't like your statement button"
Idealistic, but it will not happen.
Not just here, not just on Reddit, but literally every forum out there that has any kind of downvote button is used to express displeasure and disagreement. A petty “up yours” button; it’s human nature.
I don’t think it will ever change, not that I approve of it.
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Jul 09 '19
Thank god for that. The ITK nonsense was the worst thing to ever happen to this subreddit
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u/dWaldizzle Pastorinho Fred Jul 09 '19
I'd argue the people who are 500% serious about everything and literally abused the ITK claimers are worse.
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Jul 09 '19
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Jul 09 '19
Sauce Murica i bet
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
Or /u/zSolaris or /u/seaders or /u/ballsywallsy or /u/rdzzl or /u/yiyiyiyi or /u/Pedantic_Pat or /u/D1794 or /u/lukejames1111 .
Why don't we just name the whole mod team while were at it? The blame on this doesn't fall upon the shoulders of one person and we will not be singling folks out.
How dare we enjoy the subreddit that we moderate and want to promote something that injected some positivity and optimism here? Yes, it didn't work out. Yes, in hindsight there are things that we (myself included) could have handled better. For those things, we are trying to make them right now. We are human too, we are fans too, we are users here too. And, like folks love to point out for us, we are volunteers who do this on their own time without pay.
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Jul 09 '19
The blame doesn't really fall on the whole mod team for certain moderators acting the fool and egging on the Muppets who were obviously posting false info.
Spoofex and Sauce murica were the worst offenders by far and mods like D1794 were sensible. There are good mods and bad mods on this subreddit, thankfully the worst has gone, but there another rotten apple still in there.
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u/TheWhyOfFry_9 Jul 10 '19
While obviously the people sending abuse having clearly taken things too far, its clear to me that the mods have to take a lot of the blame for allowing this to go too far.
Hopefully this sub can get back to normality but I fear the damage has been done and now it will be full of toxic people more interested in transfer sagas then the actual club.
I'm sorry to hear about the abuse spoof received but I can't say I'm unhappy to see him go. He was the chief architect of this whole" muppet" stuff and I'm quite glad to see the back of him.
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Jul 09 '19
I think mods are trying to socially engineer threads a bit too much honestly.
Yes, the Twitter cesspool crowd is migrating but they'd be everywhere.
Tier challenge was actually a good concept which can still be implemented. Only thing is you claim the challenge in modmail with condition that they can't break the news of their challenge before completing it.
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u/ThisIsAThrowaway9102 Jul 09 '19
I mean, an anonymous channel is an extremely good idea in order to control negativity. Literally have responsible users in charge of verifying information, and never release names to the public. There is no hate, and information can be tiered in order to reduce troll accounts. Until a mod abuses this channel and uses it to back their own "ITK" information.
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u/mylenejetaime DREAMS CAN'T BE BUY Jul 09 '19
Problem is the burden of verification is too much for the mods.
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u/jakk_22 Jul 09 '19
I’m glad all the Itk stuff is sorted but I don’t agree with banning xisimon, the guy is more reliable than most journalists
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Jul 09 '19
While I do not agree with your statement, I will use the upvote button liberally to spur on good discussions.
Just because someone guesses the correct time of an announcement, that doesn't make them any more reliable. Journalists are not willing to stick their head out on the line, and may even be the club's mouthpieces. xisimon likes attention and that was clear the second he included a twitter account in his posts. He's in it for the clout, and even a broken clock is right twice a day.
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u/yammertime27 Rashford Jul 09 '19
Do you even have any idea what he's been right about? He's not throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks, the grand majority of the time when he's said something it's come true. This is not a "broken clock is right twice a day" situation.
And I'm fairly sure the reason he moved to Twitter primarily was because of the toxicity of this subreddit and the number of fake ITKs appearing
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u/ChickenSun Jul 09 '19
Just a general question. I've always felt discussion would be better if there was no upvoting and downvoting on comments here. So often it's downvote with no discussion. I don't even know if it's possible but I always felt it would be a good way to promote actual conversations over people vying for popularity.
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u/xUnderwhelmedx Jul 09 '19
Dang. I was positive that thread #10 would have been the de ligt announcement. :(
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u/w1zgov Jul 09 '19
The toxicity has been on a rise lately and completely support mod decision of not having a Muppet thread and discussing ITK. We've had enough fallen soldiers.
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u/radioben Swedish Hero Jul 09 '19
I’ll agree and expand upon it. Can we have a “toxicity” reason under the list of reasons to report someone? Yes, you’ll get false reports, but you get them for everything.
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u/elsarcher Frank Reynolds Jul 09 '19
I fucking hate most of our fanbase tbh. The abuse Ashley Young gets on his instagram is beyond belief - I still want the guy at the club whether he has passed it or not, he is clearly an important squad player.
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u/RadiatorPie Jul 09 '19
He's clearly a good guy to have around the squad or he wouldn't have been captain. This sub just seems to have a very Fifa/FM kind o f knee jerk reaction to any negative press
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u/Martblni Jul 09 '19
Guys like /u/xisimon and /u/marcus-surik (who is ITK8) should be allowed to post, both clearly have good sources and got many things correctly
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u/Area_Code_214 Jul 09 '19
well thats what happens when children play with adults.
Thanks for keeping the sub up. Tbh, the ITK and muppet thread was the most fun thing we have done in quite some time.
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u/WhoDeyNinja Jul 09 '19
The reason this is ridiculous is that people who didn't care about the muppet stuff came into the muppet thread to cause problems. Those same people are getting their wish. You are successfully rewarding the people who caused the problems.
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u/IntenseFATE98 Jul 09 '19
So Spoofex deleted his account over abuse, the same guy who said he would make a thread so that people can roast him for a week, after he was called out for his BS? Hmm, sounds a bit like him playing the victim card and bailing out, but alright. If he ever comes back with an alt account, I hope you guys will ban him for hyping people up for no reason, generating false hope and all his other bs that went on for weeks. I know that would happen if it was any other person. Same goes for any other ITK's who have posted dumb shit and the people who 'abused' spoofex, surely you guys must know their ID's, right? If you guys are gonna stop the ITK stuff completely, then ban the people who were posting shite so far, to make it effective.
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u/ItsaPuppet Jul 09 '19
It started off playful though. The suggested roasting thread was intended to be light hearted. It would most definitely not have been that way.
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u/IntenseFATE98 Jul 09 '19
The original ITK system was alright, even with a few flaws. Verified ITK's were on the tier list (it was mostly just /u/xisimon iirc, the only person who doesn't seem to have been posting bs) and they were allowed to have their own threads to post updates. It all went to shit when the Mods got carried away and decided to make these Muppet threads.
In regards to spoofex, Idk what his intentions were, but he was definitely full of BS. Classic case of abusing peoples' trust, as a Mod. Idk if the roasting thread was meant to be light hearted or not, but it's the internet, we all know how that would have ended.
Just hope this place is moderated a bit more strictly now, because it's been up and down for the past few months. With all the doxxing, abuse or whatever, it's been a real shitstorm sometimes.
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
It all went to shit when the Mods got carried away and decided to make these Muppet threads.
You absolutely don't know the full story. At all, there was plenty of shit going on behind the scenes then, which is why we changed it then, and have changed it a few times since. It was all pretty unmanageable.
Same goes for any other ITK's who have posted dumb shit and the people who 'abused' spoofex, surely you guys must know their ID's, right?
Some of the abuse spoof, and other ITKs have suffered is people creating new accounts, and sending an unreal amount of abuse via PMs and chat. We know of multiple people who've been hit with this, and again is one of the reasons we're washing our hands of it all.
Also those you think are innocent of "BS" and other such things absolutely are not.
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u/IntenseFATE98 Jul 09 '19
If a lot of shit happened behind the scenes, then let people know exactly what happened. If you already have, link it. This thread sounds a bit yada yada over what happened with spoofex and doesn't seem to explain the whole story. Can't just say 'abuse' and bury it, let people know exactly what happened.
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Jul 09 '19
It was fun at first, but as with all things Internet based, if its not introduced slowly it soon consumes itself. Spoofex clearly had a lot of good interests at heart but clearly didn't properly anticipate a) how wrong his source could get things and b) how quickly that can blow up in his face.
A shame because I think he brought some good to the Internet by making the transfer guides more readily updated and spread to effectively several other sites (I see people asking 'Tier?' on Facebook/twitter etc now) but for some bizarre reason decided to go around it quite hastily when he got his own "in".
In the end I think it would have been impossible for him to carry on talking here in any capacity due to some absolute sociopaths around the place who seemed more interested in him and the other ITKs being wrong than anything being said at all. And that has to be held up as probably being his own fault (risk vs reward wasn't worth it) as someone who has seen the best AND worst of this place.
However I fully agree with the mods on this (I think maybe xisimon deserves some leniency as he seems to be have been caught up in the crossfire a little bit, but then again I'm not the one looking under the hood at how things might be going down all the time). It needs to stop and we need to look forward to seeing how we can weed out the absolute shit bags that want to drag it down.
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u/belliom Jul 09 '19
The problem wasn’t the ITK but the people who took it too seriously. These people should be banned. Instead we can’t have any fun because of a minor group of toxic people.
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u/Carson99 Jul 09 '19
The toxicity did get too much, so I can understand the reasoning behind the full ban on ITKs and Muppetiering.
But regarding xisimon, he has been proven to be more reliable than some journos out there. So people are not allowed to discuss his posts/tweets, but bullshit merchants like daily mirror, and sky sports news get discussed all the time?
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u/ReflectingGod Ronaldo Jul 09 '19
Can someone give me a full rundown on what Simon actually has got right regarding transfers? I just found it odd that last summer he could only give a few accurate bits of information relating more towards social media and branding and then he made a really ambiguous claim that we were working on a top player but wouldn't reveal who. It was teased all summer and was later "revealed" to be Griezmann. But that was obviously false. In recent years we've been making big transfers every single year. Saying we'd sign a top player was hardly a stab in the dark and I bet any player we were hoping to eventually sign would have been this mystery player. Whether it be Alderweireld, Varane, Koulibaly, Godin etc.
I just find it odd that a year later that he's making claims regarding transfers when before he wasn't been shared that information. What makes me doubt him most unfortunately is that he's gone from trying to break news about Koulibaly on twitter and how we're in advanced negotiations to deleting it all and now rather just confirming stuff we already know and is being reported by every other media outlet on the pretense that he's reliable and won't give us false information. He's obviously got a contact. I think Spoof did also. I think theres a good chance though that both contacts worked in a department not related to transfers like a media or marketing department (would explain a lot - why he knew when a player was going to be announced but hasn't given much reliable news regarding interest and bids). I mean confirming our interest in a player days after the club briefs media that we've bid £70m isn't particularly helpful or proof that he has insider knowledge on transfers.
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Jul 09 '19
Fred, Dalot, James and AWB. He got all right.
He got Alderweireld and De Gea's contract wrong.
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u/bluecrabcakes Jul 09 '19
Transfer thread : “You (muppets) could not live with your own failure. Where did that bring you? Back to me”
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u/Call_Me_ZG Newton Heath: And Solskjaer has won it Jul 09 '19
I missed the whole drama probably because of me only visiting selected threads but /u/spoofex seemed like an alright mod.
Hope the season brings us some good news.
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Jul 09 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TakeMeToFatmandu Jul 09 '19
I can only speak for myself but the optimism in the muppet thread made me feel a lot more welcome to post there. Sometimes posts on here can take a negative dip which makes me not want to partake
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u/madybaev Ji-Sung Fred Jul 09 '19
Well that was fun while it lasted 😭
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Jul 09 '19
They have their own sub now. If any of the angry people in here go there, they will simply be trolling. Surely, righteous people don't want to be trolls.
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u/EricCantonaInSpace Jul 09 '19
Mods didn't do enough to get rid of or curtail actual toxic users. For a long time it's been the standard bullshit reddit fare of "you can basically be a toxic cunt as long as you don't swear or insult anyone", with little attention paid to the obvious repeat offenders stirring up negative shit in every thread. The 'Martial FC' saga was the epitome of that, literally 3 or 4 users spitting bile in every thread about him, which eventually grew into a wave of lurkers upvoting that toxic shite all the time. Now it's just grown into overwhelmingly negative and exaggerated reactions to fucking everything, with endless circlejerks looking for cheap validation by shitting on our players.
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u/ThisAfricanboy I dreamt of being like Gaz but I'm a lefty Jul 09 '19
I'd like to say this. I'm glad we're openly discussing negativity on this sub. We all know there's too much of it but at times the level of abuse directed at players we're meant to support is abhorrent.
I can understand emotions are high during march threads and maybe leniency there is fair but there is a stark difference between criticising a player (whether for warranted reasons like not tracking back and unwarranted reasons like posting on Instagram) and outright abusing them. This sub isn't Twitter, it shouldn't be and we can't let it be.
I've seen far too many threads where players are spoken of in terms that would merit action if they were talking about any user here. Imo that's one of the reasons why ITKs received as much abuse as they did. When spoof is less mod dude we've known for years and more celebrity ITK, people change tact.
I call for the mods to implement the same reddiquette and rules that protects redditors from abuse to players of the club. Not one player ever deserves to be insulted the way some of yous do here. Whether it's Pogba agitating for a move, Young underperforming or Sanchez getting overpaid. It's excessive and festers and now has spilt over to people who have to face it. Enough is enough, this isn't Twitter or Facebook we need to enforce the rules better!
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u/TakeMeToFatmandu Jul 09 '19
I completely agree. The shit Lingard got for that hotel video was ridiculous
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u/ExoStatic144 Jul 09 '19
Friendship ended with r/reddevils. Now r/muppetiers is my best friend.
On a serious note, this is the best thing to do. As much as I love the muppetry and was fully invested in every single muppet theory out there (MDL still believe), it was just getting far too toxic and I have no idea why people felt that was necessary.
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Jul 09 '19
[deleted]
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u/josh1996 Jul 09 '19
Agree completely, this sub began to get boring after the season finished and before the muppets thread began.
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u/cptshiba Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
So I saw that there is now no mention of u/xisimon on the transfer tier guide anymore, which I take means he is in included in the group of banned "ITK's". I think that's pretty unfair to someone who has a proven record of accuracy over a long period of time and would like to suggest that he should be included in the tier guide, similar to u/MrStephenHowson.
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u/dvyseven Jul 09 '19
It's a shame it had to come to this, the muppet stuff was always just good fun. Shame on those who attack others on the internet for sharing ideas etc.
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Jul 09 '19
As a small aside, anyone coming here from Twitter: Please read over the rules and be aware of both those and general posting etiquette.
I think this is a rather large point tbh, espcially before we get into the meat of the season it's worth reiterating that this isn't anything like Twitter. Controversy and being an edgelord isn't something welcome at all, whilst it happns, if that's your intention here, FUCK OFF basically. Discussion is king and when the shit hits the fan mid season and in the tumultuous periods to come, we don't need more fuel for the fire so either adopt a voice for yourself or do one with any meaningless posting.
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u/general_description Jul 09 '19
Ban the abusers instead of changing the system. Bullying has no place here!
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u/Hollacaine Jul 09 '19
This should absolutely be the way to address this. Letting people off without consequences for bullying and harrassing users here is tacitly encouraging it.
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
Anyone found to be trolling/harassing others has, and will continue to be, dealt with in turn.
If you see anyone doing so, please lend us a hand by reporting the offending comments. That's honestly the best way to draw our attention to the issue.
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u/Hollacaine Jul 09 '19
I don't anyone has seen any evidence that mods have taken any action against abuse or trolling of people here. If you have, then you need to take the simple step of deleting the comment and saying the user has been banned. Its what /r/legaladvice does and they have a far better managed community. I know moddings a difficult job and its volunteer, but you guys make this more difficult for yourselves by not being seen to take action and explicitly show that this stuff is unacceptable.
Despite reading the muppet threads a lot and reading far too many of the comments on there, not once did I see anyone posting something abusive ever got called on it by a mod. And it happens very rarely on other threads as well.
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u/ok2k3k Jul 09 '19
Fucking yes! Move the muppets out of this sub! Did not mind a few of the ITKs or some of the discussion it brought, but mostly it felt like fucking 4chan in here at times
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u/FrankCastle99 Jul 09 '19
Comparing it to 4chan is a mighty stretch, more comparable to Twitter.
Too much karmawhoring, too much nonsensical tripe, it was fun at the start, I took part in the fun and games, but it was unbearable at the end.
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u/MoggyTron Jul 09 '19
Looks like the Saudi's started their planned takeover of the club with this sub. Oppressive rules because a few people can't behave themselves. The angry trouble makers will still be angry trouble makers.
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u/TestNamePlsIgnore123 Jul 09 '19
This is good direction you guys are heading to! So what happens to xisimon’s updates are those welcome in this sub ? Tbf the guy has been constantly spot on it’d be shame if we didn’t allow him to give his updates.
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u/Blacktivate The Special Juan Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Not allowed on this sub. No exceptions, as he's still an ITK. Right call imo.
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Jul 09 '19
The Muppet thread was a fun place, the gifs and memes were excellent, I think overall everyone enjoyed it at the start.
I have a question to the mods, are we going to do anything about people's behaviour in this sub? I know it's a massive job, we have like 160k users, but too often there are comments which shouldn't be allowed. They are deleted by you, but sometimes it's too late, and the damage is done, the personal attack is carried out, the havoc is already spread.
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Jul 09 '19
I agree with this decision wholeheartedly, I used to have a lot of fun going to those threads but it got to a point that it became toxic and even cultist. People would stalk players, track them down without rest, glorify liars and frown upon people who tried to go against that narrative, then once those liars were proved to be indeed, liars, they harrassed them, tagged them nonstop, wish for them to be banned and even doxxed them lol. I'm certain spoofex was not one of those liars, but I am also certain he did get fed wrong information and he should've stopped giving updates when he found this out. I'm extremely upset about his departure because I really liked him as a user and as a mod and the contributions he gave this sub were unreal, damn shame to lose a great user over idiotic shit like this but this ITK shit brought along a lot of new users and with them there was some amount of toxic people coming here to stir shit up because they wanted to have inside information to brag about to their friends, and when proving incorrect, they'd throw a fit and try to point fingers. I'm glad to see the back of the ITKs, the Muppet thread and everything that came with that because it's just not worth it. I know they made this sub more active but it's still just not worth it. With that said, I believe we should still allow tier 2 Simon to have a platform given he's actually the ONLY ITK to have earned his place as an ITK on our sub and he still chose to come here and keep providing information after this sub turned on him to defend liars. The dude comes once in a blue moon anyway so it's not like it's something that needs a system or anything like it. Just plain old, harmless muppetry.
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u/Mrodsoccer6 Rooney Jul 09 '19
I've been on this sub for about a year now and seeing this sub devolve into a toxic wasteland was really upsetting. I am sad to see spoof go but I feel like this is a step in the right direction, the muppetry got way out of hand.
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u/Backseat_Bouhafsi Jul 09 '19
There are many who hyped themselves up so much that they can't handle bad/unfavourable news. Some of ended up betting big sums of money or inadvertently influenced others into doing the same. I'm sure they're all deeply unhappy about the situation. But take responsibility for your own actions and don't take it out on others. Whether the info is true or false, you should do due diligence before believing it. The same applies to media news.
Things got so bad that its likely that fans of other clubs joined into to mock and abuse those involved here. We should be better than this. Don't let the happiness in your life depend so much upon the state of the club. MUFC will survive easily without you, so should you without MUFC.
When the fun stops, stop.
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u/XXX-Rx_RnR Sir Alex Jul 09 '19
It goes without saying that we have some of the greatest mods on Reddit handling this sub. It’s a damn shame that all this fun “ITK/Muppetry” got to heads of some unstable individuals who go out of their way to ruin a persons day to day. People need to learn to respect each other, even on an anonymous platform. Thank you to the mod team who have always made this place a credible source for United News. I hope we can clean up some of the skunk that’s been lingering because this is my favorite sub and the stench seems to be getting worse. For ever a Red. GGMU.
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u/Treayye Pogba Jul 09 '19
The same mod team that were encouraging the itk nonsense, they should have made these changes a long time ago.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
ITK stuff has been part of our sub for literal ages. I found this gem the other day from six years ago. We have had a history with these (Bloodgate, Butchergate, flight tracking, etc.) and obviously, it's something that interested folks.
It blew up last year with Kohler-gate and since then we've tried several attempts to bring it under control, including multiple this summer alone.
Now we've come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for our sub. Hindsight is also 20/20 but for all of us, we simply tried to do what we can for the best interests of the sub. We tried to promote and inject some positivity and fun into this place.
We're not blameless, and we're not saying that we are. For those things, we are trying to make them right now. We are human too, we are fans too, we are users here too. And, like folks love to point out for us, we are volunteers who do this on their own time without pay.
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Jul 09 '19
Is fifthly even a word??
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
It is where creb's from, in good ol 'bama.
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u/ialsodomykillingab Jul 09 '19
Perhaps among the gentry, but I'd wager "an' fhive" might be a bit more common
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u/JasinNatael Jul 09 '19
I agree with the decision to split off the ITK/muppet posts.
However, the negativity in this sub is rampant. It isn't all muppets and it won't vanish when they post elsewhere. You folks have a lot of work to do to make this a reasonable forum for discussion, in my opinion. The culture has descended too far.
... it's a bit like the situation United is in, I think.
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u/Ras_OKan Jul 09 '19
If anything the people who weren't engaged in muppetry where the ones who were the most negative. Others just went overboard with the hate they showed to ITKs and some abused them too much because they were dickheads... We, the sane ones, in the muppet thread always controlled out emotions, never believed ITK stuff as tier 1 level news and never abused anyone. But just because a few bellends decided to go overboard now everyone is being hated, negativity is spreading and a schism is forming... Maybe I'm just too invested here myself and should just let it go...
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Jul 09 '19
I say let it go for a bit man, I laid off the sub after the season ended and even missed the whole saga so I'm not even sure what happened.
I feel much better for it and I can still visit the sub like now and I get to enjoy the things I like. The general transfer news and Friday talk stuff is what I like for fresh air.
I've also come to accept some people come here to vent major frustrations and in general they are not open to an alternative opinion so I just stay out of it no matter how bad I feel on their comments. The post match threads are another one to stay away from as we have been so divisive over the last few years
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u/YourTypicalSaudi Manchester United Jul 09 '19
This is the kind of drama I’m glad to have missed.
I don’t know what happened with /u/Spoofex but as far as I know, he was a good lad and I’ll miss him.
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u/SlytherinMan9 Jul 09 '19
One day I will tell my grandkids about the muppeting that was going on here. Sad it got so toxic and this seems like the right move.
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Jul 09 '19
It's rather silly when you realize it's been going on for years in here. Maybe a lot of the angry people are too young to realize it.
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u/____Io_oI____ Jul 09 '19
Can we have r/muppetiers in the sidebar?
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19
That's almost certainly not going to happen now, but maybe at some point in the future. We'll try a few things and try get to what's best.
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u/xisimon Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
As I've been saying since the beginning, I fully agree with not letting everyone post "ITK information" as it's very, very easy to just make up things. I warned you about this previously, multiple times, but you kept going and now I hope we can both see who was correct.
I do, however, find it very weird how you're now completely banning all "ITK activity". Sure, get rid of everyone unproven, but if someone has proven themselves multiple times I only think it's fair for both them and the community to share that information. The previous system where proven ITKs were added to the tier system and were able to post seperate posts worked brilliantly, I'm not sure why you went away from that.
I know that we've had our disagreements and that some of your moderators really dislike me, but that shouldn't come before the interest of the subreddit. Looking at the most popular comments in this thread I'm sure you see what the community wants. This really isn't about me wanting attention, as I already have my own platform elsewhere and could exclusively post there, it's about what the whole subreddit wants and deserves. You may just delete this comment, like you did yesterday with my comment about Maguire and Bruno Fernandes in the transfer thread, but I'm hoping for a proper reply and discussion.
TL;DR: I'm all for stopping all the fake "ITKs", but I find it weird that proven sources are going to be looked at the same way. It doesn't make any sense and I find it weird that you're valuing your personal interest and opinions over the community's.
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Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 15 '19
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Jul 09 '19 edited Feb 09 '22
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u/GazTheLegend Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
The problem all along was Spoofex, not xisimon or the other ITK's, even (arguably) the false ones.
The reason for the toxicity was that he was a moderator of the subreddit and as a moderator, he routinely abused his power to quell any question of his legitimacy. But allowing him to REMAIN a moderator IMPLIED legitimacy - which that Walter Mitty level deluded twit never had.
There were comment threads deleted, and users posts removed routinely when he wrote (forgive my language) total bullshit on the level of Indykaila stuff. You don't need me to cite examples of blatant lies. His claiming that he couldn't be trusted was not properly encouraged - as it actually increased the seeming veracity of his posts. Never mind that he DELETED certain dangerous questions regarding certain aspects of his claims.
The ITK posts weren't the problem, Spoofex was. He became addicted to the attention, and got more and more outlandish with his claims.
No wonder people got toxic when you encouraged such behaviour.
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u/daveyp2tm Jul 09 '19
One of the main reasons I come here is news, this is the best place to get united news. With the tier rules the main sub acts as an aggregater of news from reputable sources. News always breaks here instantly or even before everywhere else, because of users with connections or simply users who so on it. People like /u/xisimon give this place the edge and something unique. Really the sub should be grateful to have him and shouldn't be discouraging him. I do understand not wanting to set exceptions but it's shooting yourself in the foot. Deal with the trolls and the toxic users, they're the problem. Don't stop us haivng nice things in the process.
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Jul 09 '19
My issue with ITKs, you included, is the anonymity. If you want to be considered a reliable source, you've got to stick your head out on the line, put your name on your updates, and hone up to the mistakes you made. We've seen deleted tweets in the past and that is a representation of what is wrong with this type of journalism.
Regarding the "interest of this subreddit", there is nothing stopping users who follow you and other rumour mills on Twitter from posting the content and generating discussion. Your complaining makes it sound like you're in it for the clout and upvotes. Prove us wrong.
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Jul 09 '19
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Jul 09 '19
If he wants to be treated like a journalist, then he's got to act the part. Otherwise he can't complain and ask for special treatment regarding the sharing of anonymous, unsupported inside information.
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Jul 09 '19
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u/contrarianLW Jul 09 '19
Nope.
This is like enjoying the benefits but refusing to own up to the responsibility.
u/BHvithai is correct.
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u/The_Renovator I miss Larry_B Jul 09 '19
Why do you care? They are not banning you from the sub or joining in discussions.
If you are getting insider info then just put it on your Twitter and anyone that wants to have your info can grab it there.
Surely you have seen what all this ITK drama has brought here?
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u/ssosso__ Jul 10 '19
xisimon, we the fans want entertainment and truth... we will support you, suggest you create a platform to avoid further conflict with moderators here.. it's pointless.
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
I warned you about this previously, multiple times, but you kept going and now I hope we can both see who was correct.
If you came here to say "I told you so" it doesn't make me want to have a conversation with you honestly.
but if someone has proven themselves multiple times I only think it's fair for both them and the community to share that information
By which you mean yourself mostly, but you want to make it look neutral.
The previous system where proven ITKs were added to the tier system and were able to post seperate posts worked brilliantly, I'm not sure why you went away from that.
Did it? It's been proven that verification processes don't work in general. The Kohler guy could have been a verified ITK then been removed when the Griezmann thing happened.
Looking at the most popular comments in this thread I'm sure you see what the community wants
That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I'm not saying our decision is de facto the right thing either, but popular demand doesn't equal the best decision
This really isn't about me wanting attention, as I already have my own platform elsewhere and could exclusively post there, it's about what the whole subreddit wants and deserves
See my above point, popular demand doesn't equal the best decision. And as far as what the sub "deserves", I think that's a broad and baseless thing to say
You may just delete this comment, like you did yesterday with my comment about Maguire and Bruno Fernandes in the transfer thread, but I'm hoping for a proper reply and discussion.
This is inflammatory and unneeded. If you have an issue with something we've done, there are better ways to voice your displeasure
I'll go ahead and say it, I was one of the people who was ok with making an exception for you in general but your post here has changed my mind. This is a passive aggressive post and does nothing to convince me the decision we've made is incorrect
Edit: I just want to add that anyone who disagrees, I am happy to discuss this with them. The basic point is, IMO, that there's nothing getting harmed in Simon(and any other ITK) just moving to the muppets sub. Everyone who wants updates can go there for them, it's not difficult to check another sub.
If the only "sacrifice" made to help alleviate the toxicity and negativity in the sub is to have to check another sub, I'm pretty ok with that personally.
Edit 2: I do want to add that I could have approached this response differently and for that I apologize. I could have been more level headed in my response
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u/ThePurpleBoy Lindelof Jul 09 '19
Holy shit you're kind of a massive baby. Spoof and you being the newest mods have been mistakes.
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
Holy shit you're kind of a massive baby.
Nice constructive criticism, always good to see.
Spoof and you being the newest mods have been mistakes.
So I shouldn't be a mod because you don't like 1 post I've made?
I'll freely admit the above is born out of some frustration and I should have been more level headed about it. I don't think the content is really that incorrect(open to discussion) even if my tone is poor
Simon has come into this thread to basically say "i told you so" and "I should be the only ITK". He has provided no reason why the muppet sub is not a productive solution. He can freely post his updates there and the sole difference is the subscriber count.
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u/ThePurpleBoy Lindelof Jul 09 '19
Just because you don't like that he said I told you so doesn't mean it was wrong. Bro, the moment there was more than him being an ITK it was flat out abused. Kholer dude abused it, Spoof abused it, Kermit is currently abusing it. /u/XISimon is literally getting legitimate information blocked due to moderation mistakes.
You saying that you were with him until he wrote up that comment shows that you'll stick your pride before your own judgement. That is why you'll just be another mod quick on the ban.
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u/KanYeJeBekHouden Jul 09 '19
His "I told you so" bit might be petty, but your responses are far more petty to be honest.
There were loads of people criticizing the system of the muppet thing. I enjoyed the threads and I never abused someone. But I did criticize Spoofex for being a mod and posting things like they were fact. Sure, he hid behind saying his source might not be reliable, but he still claimed a whole bunch of things. Would have been nice to see you address those things, but they've consistently been ignored. This could have been prevented.
Rule 1 should be: Don't have mods post ITK stuff. It just doesn't make sense.
Rule 2 should be: ITKs should publicly prove they have a source and we can publicly determine whether they're talking shite. Step one is really hard, meaning most of the fake ones will simply disappear. The second part is easy and we can just start ignoring the likes that get stuff wrong.
A seperate sub is completely fine by me, but I will miss the posts by Simon. And I don't really think we can logically have two subreddits about Manchester United and not have a huge overlap of users. The toxic behaviour will go on just the same it will just be on a different subreddit. I don't understand how that is a good solution.
Any ITK posting updates, will suffer from the same abuse, because the system on that subreddit so far hasn't really changed. If you think that's fine because you're now not the moderator of that sub, then I can get that, but let's not pretend we have solved the issue here...
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u/CrebTheBerc Jul 09 '19
His "I told you so" bit might be petty, but your responses are far more petty to be honest.
I'm honestly pretty frustrated with his post. It comes across to me as fishing for sympathy and trying to worm his way into a bigger audience honestly. I could have kept a cooler head when responding.
Would have been nice to see you address those things, but they've consistently been ignored. This could have been prevented.
Address Spoofex as an ITK? I personally think it was not the right decision, I was not a mod when all the ITK stuff started so it's difficult for me to address it.
I can tell you I am not in favor of a mod getting involved in that fashion again.
Rule 2 should be: ITKs should publicly prove they have a source and we can publicly determine whether they're talking shite.
How do you do this without getting that source fired? That's been a huge concern
And I don't really think we can logically have two subreddits about Manchester United and not have a huge overlap of users. The toxic behaviour will go on just the same it will just be on a different subreddit. I don't understand how that is a good solution.
We understand there will be overalap. The intention is to focus this sub on more substantial discussion and news. The muppet sub can be for silliness and ITK stuff
The toxicity is an related but separate issue we also want to address, but part of that was rooted in the divide the muppetry and transfer threads caused
Any ITK posting updates, will suffer from the same abuse, because the system on that subreddit so far hasn't really changed. If you think that's fine because you're now not the moderator of that sub, then I can get that, but let's not pretend we have solved the issue here...
Any ITK's who want to take that risk are welcome to on a different sub. It has been too difficult to control and moderate how ITK information is processed and treated here.
ITKs should go to that sub knowing the risks. It has led to too many issues on the sub in our opinion and that's why it's being banned
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u/CaptainDickfingers Jose Mourinho Jul 09 '19
I agree with this. Not sure it would be too difficult to identify and ban those who are throwing abuse around. For lots of people the muppets thread was the most entertaining part of the sub.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
The issue is that letting him through sets a precedent. If he stays, then anyone who gets a couple of transfers correct has an argument to stay. Then we need to try to verify them as much as we can and we're right down the ITK trail again.
We did discuss Simon in particular, but it's got to be all the ITK stuff or go back to some sort of verification process which we don't want to do.
As /u/BHvithai mentions, /r/muppetiers is opened up for all this kind of content. Please feel free to view it there.
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Jul 10 '19
You are dead right. There should always be one set of rules for all people. Exceptions are the quickest path to abuse and distrust. I personally would prefer all ITKs, silo'd in the muppet thread. But, we're not all grownups in here.
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u/daveyp2tm Jul 09 '19
It is a tricky. Perhaps it's actually best left unmoderated and left to it's own devices to some extent. I wonder if part of the problem with in the ITK stuff is it all became too organised and formal. By splitting it in to seperate threads and labelling it and nicknaming people it got made in to such a big thing and divided people and became an us and them situation with so much attention on it. Although that should still never resort to abuse, people should be able to stay civil. In a way, by trying to deal with it, the situation got worse. People should be allowed to post 'ITK' shit, if the community doesn't believe them they can down vote or ignore them. If there's any credibility to it, it will rise to the top. Didn't Simon make it on to the tier list at one point? It's not like he shares stuff that often, only when he's heard stuff. He should still be allowed to post his info, he's built that reputation. Again, people can down vote it or say if they don't believe it. Anyone acting hostile can and should be banned and let things handle themselves.
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Jul 09 '19
There is nothing stopping you from going to the dedicated /r/muppetiers. There is no need for anonymous, unreliable rumours to be posted in this sub.
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u/UnitedRoad18 Carrick Jul 09 '19
There is no need for anonymous, unreliable rumours to be posted in this sub.
There's also no need for fucking Bebe highlights and posts about Chicharito but the mods are perfectly fine letting those in.
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Jul 10 '19
I agree. The daily transfer thread is so dull, I rarely read it. People theorizing about players the Mirror has brought up. People claiming their baby daughter is better than the players United may realistically land. Even have to suffer thru people talking about how great Ed is, and he's going throw his big cock around and land the next Ronaldo. Ugh.
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u/takemehomeunitedroad Jul 09 '19
Seems a lot like punishing everyone for the actions of the minority.
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u/h2blu Jul 09 '19
Finally. Half of the comments on the muppet threads were "can we reach 20k???" and the other half was abusing people for having an opinion that went against the grain. Did not benefit the sub in any way, if anything it has brought the reputation down. Even the twitter crowd was laughing at the sub.
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u/datboyuknow Ole Jul 09 '19
Even the twitter crowd was laughing at the sub.
Oh no I'm so embarrassed. They don't who you are mate just don't care about it
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u/Barracuda1124 Jul 09 '19
As opposed to the 442 diamond or how we should aspire to a midfield as great as wolves discussions ?
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u/Dispari7y Nani Jul 09 '19
I can't even look at 442 diamond formations now without expecting to see 97 different academy members and unrealistic signings, and we're supposedly the muppets.
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u/mu_37 Jul 09 '19
Honestly the mods here have always been great, Which makes it much more baffling how it took this long and only after losing one of your own to put an end to this.
Oh well you live and you learn.
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u/PhoenixGo213 Jul 09 '19
Can’t we have a point system for ITKs? If they get something right before it is reported by any news agency or twitter account, they get points. If not, points are deducted. Just a thought
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Jul 09 '19
Thank fuck we were over believing Tier 5 sources. We went from creating reliability charts to falling over Flavour Of The Day (Ben Yedder etc.).
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u/NotSwedishMac Jul 09 '19
1 in 10 comments in the transfer thread are about transfers. The rest are people calling doom and dragging our players, going worst case scenario and slagging the club. It's so unpleasant. Maybe try moderating that thread? Keep it on topic?
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Jul 09 '19
The rest are people calling doom and dragging our players, going worst case scenario and slagging the club
How dare people post opinions I do not like
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u/DonaldTrumpsBigToe Jul 09 '19
Thank you. We’re the only sub that has this ITK shit and it’s fucking embarrassing and at this point, just obnoxious.
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Jul 09 '19
Mods fault for allowing that bullshit
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u/DonaldTrumpsBigToe Jul 09 '19
I think blame is relatively spread out tbh. Mods allowed it, but fucking hell did a lot of people encourage it and provoke it.
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u/w1zgov Jul 09 '19
Why the fuck can't you just walk away and ignore it??? Like who the hell forced you to be a part of the Muppetry?
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Jul 09 '19
I'd say they "enjoyed", but the faux mods were upset. Now they have their own sandbox, and hopefully no one goes stalking them to kick sand in their faces.
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u/champak256 Jul 09 '19
One of the really really hard things about moderating a community you love, is that you can't just be "one of the guys" anymore. I truly believe spoofex had only the best intentions and really didn't want people to take his stuff too seriously. He went to great lengths in his disclaimers, and always maintained he was behind the Tier 1s and 2s on reliability. The problem was that as a beloved moderator on this sub, people were predisposed to trusting him way more than a random anonymous user. Even without distinguishing his comments, everyone knew he was a mod, and us long-time subscribers knew he was the guy behind the transfer reliability guide which has come to dominate most of Reddit's soccer subs and started leaking into Twitter as well.
The mods here are among the best on Reddit, and it's precisely because of that that this kind of mistake was made. They really just wanted to encourage the camaraderie and spirit we had in the 3 or 4 transfer windows ending in the Sanchez window. IMO their handling of this hasn't been the best, but they've been responsive and clearly trying their best at a role they haven't really been trained for (AFAIK).
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u/seaders *THE* Paul Parker Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Fourthly: It has been mentioned, but the toxicity and abuse towards the sub... has been too high.
Good stuff for taking this post on board.
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Jul 09 '19
Us pessimists will do better we promise
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u/sauce_murica Vidić Jul 09 '19
FWIW - this sub has had "leaked info" throughout its history - from the butcher to the blood vials.
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Jul 09 '19
Exactly, as do other clubs. Mods made a good decision to separate so the folks who get offended by what others are doing, could ignore it. Alas, they still couldn't ignore it.
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u/davidl988 Jul 09 '19
Didn’t you read this? Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean you abuse it, People like the mupperty if you don’t then don’t get involved, simple.
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u/aprx4 Attack! Attack! Attack! Jul 09 '19
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean you abuse it
Ironically, the ones abusing ITKs are the muppets who invested their emotion and time into the information they was fed by ITKs. I guess they just can't handle the truth that they was listening to bs and start hating the ITKs.
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u/davidl988 Jul 09 '19
Not everyone abuses the ITKs some hated the length others went to, to get involved in muppetry i thought it was a bit too much at times but i didn’t say anything if that is what people want to do that is fine.
Abusing is never acceptable, but my point is if you don’t like it don’t get involved, it was in a thread by itself, easy to avoid.
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Jul 09 '19
"involved" in make believe transfers. Get a life
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u/davidl988 Jul 09 '19 edited Jul 09 '19
Again, that’s like me going to the other thread and saying you guys need to relax and stop being boring bastards, but i don’t.
You all act innocent but then abuse others who want to have a laugh and don’t take everything on the internet serious.
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u/InjectedCumInMyBack DJ VROOM Jul 09 '19
Same can be said for literally anything anyone posts. Why not allow memes as submissions so if people can just ignore it?
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u/EmergencyCredit Jul 09 '19
Tbf it was restricted to one thread. We do also have a meme thread (Mondays)
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u/w1zgov Jul 09 '19
ig·nore /iɡˈnôr/ verb refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.
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Jul 09 '19
Embarrassing? You must have a particularly low shame threshold.
I give credit to the mods for allowing the diversification of content, then acting when it proves less than popular. I didn't particularly enjoy it, but it was a million miles away from "fucking embarrassing".
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Jul 09 '19
It was absolutely embarassing though.
This place became a laughing stock on football forums everywhere, and that was never the case before the ITK nonsense.
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u/zSolaris Park Ji-Sung Jul 09 '19
ITK stuff has been part of our sub for literal ages. I found this gem the other day from six years ago. We have had a history with these (Bloodgate, Butchergate, flight tracking, etc.) and obviously, it's something that interested folks.
It blew up last year with Kohler-gate and since then we've tried several attempts to bring it under control. Now we've come to the conclusion that this is the best course of action for our sub.
I'm not saying we're not blameless in all of this, mind, we've simply tried to do what we can for the best interests of the sub.
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u/jogge021 Jul 09 '19
Jeeez man. The headline “muppet thread” should be enough for you to understand that this is not serious thread. But something that people enjoy anyway. If you don’t like then why read it? People don’t have to be an jerks about it.
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u/bar0que0bama dreams cant be buy Jul 09 '19
People have been jerks about it. People have been doxxed, harassed, and ran out of the sub. People took it too seriously and it has rightfully been deleted.
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Jul 09 '19
It was like the ArsenalFanTV of Reddit, just completely embarrassing cringe seeing people hang off every word of 'Spoofex' and 'Kermit'
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Jul 09 '19
Just bring back the tier challenges. It’s way better than just letting anyone claim to be ITK
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u/theatreofdreams21 Jul 09 '19
I can’t stand the ITK bullshit and take no part in it, but restricting what people can post isn’t the way to resolve it. Let people claim whatever they want and let the community upvote or downvote them. Call me an asshole, but if they’re willing to make shit up for internet points or build a following, and they’re found out, then they deserve backlash. If they can’t deal with it, then stop posting. It’s a simple as that. These people just want attention and you’re letting them win in a way by changing rules to protect them.
Just don’t let them have their own muppetry thread. Let them post in the general transfer thread where the whole sub can decide who is valid and who isn’t.
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Jul 09 '19
Call me an asshole, but if they’re willing to make shit up for internet points or build a following, and they’re found out, then they deserve backlash.
The 'backlash' is what turns this place toxic.
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u/theatreofdreams21 Jul 09 '19
I don’t think it would have been nearly what it was though if they didn’t make a whole thread dedicated to it. If it’s random people mixed in with the rest, then the voting system would do its job. Once you start propping people up and creating status around the “ITK’s” then people get worked up when they’re wrong.
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Jul 09 '19
The muppetiers leaked on the transfer thread yesterday and it wasn't pretty.
Most of the toxicity comes from the twitter bandwagon hoppers who all joined this place in the last month or so.
Hopefully, this makes them all migrate to the muppetry sub.
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u/VeryFarDown I would have shot Rock of Gibraltar Jul 09 '19
Honestly, saying that the ITK backlash is what turned this place toxic is ridiculous imo. When Jose was losing every game and confronting the media, the sub was even more toxic than it has been recently. The toxicity results from the club's horrible form and structural mismanagement. As u/theatreofdreams21 said, the backlash for blatantly lying on the internet is always going to be a real risk, and I say that as someone who believes doxxers and those who promote it are the absolute scum of the earth.
I think the better way is to let the community decide who has validity and who doesn't.
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Jul 09 '19
saying that the ITK backlash is what turned this place toxic
Nobody said it was the only reason.
I think the better way is to let the community decide who has validity and who doesn't.
That's what has been the case until now and it turned out it wasn't the better way.
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u/VeryFarDown I would have shot Rock of Gibraltar Jul 09 '19
It was still too heavily moderated, imo. You had the muppiters account, the muppetry thread, etc. all separate from the transfer thread. The community will eventually weed out the nonces and if you're going to blatantly lie, knowing the well documented abuse lobbed at ITKs, then that should be on the individual user.
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u/nrshakya Rooney Jul 09 '19
Really sad about spoofex deleting his account. Can he restore it at some point? Was a great contributer.
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u/twentytimes20 Louis Van Gaal’s Red Army Jul 09 '19
You guys are consistently doing the right thing for the good of this place, cheers!
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u/littleboypunder Jul 09 '19
I think you should reintroduce the tier challenge. Just as an example there is a difference between the ITKs who could basically guess stuff and be 50/50 right and then you have u/xisimon who has accurately predicted timings of announcements and who they involve.
It isn’t excluding him from a blanket approach it is sticking by a predominantly reliable source of information which is beneficial for the sub as a whole. With a proven track record over time I feel we have a few users who are absolutely not part nor parcel of the ITK and muppet hype train that began.
You’ve asked for our feedback in this thread and I’ve seen the majority of people vouching for our proven guys who we shouldn’t dismiss now just because of a shitshow of a summer.
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u/TakeMeToFatmandu Jul 09 '19
I agree the decision you’ve made is probably the best one in the long term and I am disappointed that it has come to this.
My only issue is that it feels like this is giving the people doing the abuse exactly what they want. There were a few people who were acting abusive towards members of the sub calling for exactly this to happen.
At the end of the day though, I hope that this works to bring down the levels of toxicity as it was making it less fun to visit here.
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u/DarkLight9er Jul 09 '19
As mods when exactly are you guys going to hold yourselves accountable? There have been complaints about the toxicity in this sub for years just to have mods run and try and deflect. Im assuming since there are changes happening across the board, partially your fault, we will see some changes among your ranks as well?
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u/iwesly De Gea Jul 09 '19
Good move. I was missing the good old days of normal transfer discussions.
And now I won't have overly optimistic expectations based on ITK news.
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u/Ras_OKan Jul 09 '19
Is it allowed to ask if Spoof will ever be back?