r/satanism • u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° • 12d ago
Comic/Meme Letβs clear something up
There has been a couple of recent posts and messages sent to the mod mail regarding this subs reaction to TST related posts. As they have now deleted their own posts because they didnβt like the response they got, I feel the need to leave this as a reminder, that The Satanic Temple has nothing to do with the religion of Satanism, it is a left wing political activist group who use a satanic aesthetic to aggravate Christians.
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u/sumbodysumone 12d ago
As a Satanist of some 25 years, this is exactly the reason that I debated even joining this sub, let alone having much participation in it.
Join clubs if you want to, and flaunt your little certificates and key rings. It honestly doesnβt matter.
βIndividualismβ
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u/EntombedCarcass 9d ago
I make Satanism is my own, getting someone else to tell you how to be a Satanist is missing the entire point imo.
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u/SatansFavoriteLilMan I practice a bunch of stuff. 12d ago
I cut ties with TST when I discovered that Lucian greeves has a VERY racist past.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
Not to mention how this 'certificate of membership' can be purchased by ANYONE from their online store, without even being a member.
So, the paper literally is meaningless, as the 'certificate of membership' does not actually certify membership.
Its merchandise, not a certificate.
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u/modern_quill Agent | Warlock IIΒ° CoS 12d ago
To be fair, membership in TST is nothing more than an email list.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
True. But the 'certificate' doesn't even certify that π
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u/Any_Flounder9603 11d ago edited 11d ago
They don't advertise the certificate as being "official" and most ppl who get it are doing so to display in their homes to get ppl talking about it. ETA: official in this context is whatever you folks are defining it as
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 11d ago
Official: approved, authorized, or done by someone with the power to do so. Official in this context means nothing more than "we are selling this ourselves and not a third party selling them" π like y'all are so close to getting it but miss entirely bc you think "official certificates/cards" is inherently tied to membership when it's no different than other satire religions who sell "official" certificates after you get ordained even tho you only need a letter of good standing and a notary to marry ppl. CoS are supposed to be the original trolls but have somehow forgotten how to troll in the modern world πππ
Okay, so now you're just back peddling because you can't admit when you're wrong.
You claimed they're not marketted as 'official'. I demonstrated that that word is platered all over that listing. Now you're trying to move the goalpost and prescribe a definition to them instead of just admitting it does claim to be official.
Yes, literally in any actual organisation, an 'official certificate of membership' is an official document certifying membership. Look at how much mental gymnastics you have to do to blindly justify TST all the time.
At least you admit TST is a joke / satire religion
We're not trolls, though. You seem to not understand the CoS very well
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 11d ago
Well, that's a lie. Here's TST calling it official twice inβwait for itβan advertisement:
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 11d ago
The name for them on the store literally says:
"Official Membership Cards and Certificates"
...
How is that not advertising the certificates as being "official"?...
Edit:
Even the link contains "official".
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u/Any_Flounder9603 11d ago
Official: approved, authorized, or done by someone with the power to do so. Official in this context means nothing more than "we are selling this ourselves and not a third party selling them" π like y'all are so close to getting it but miss entirely bc you think "official certificates/cards" is inherently tied to membership when it's no different than other satire religions who sell "official" certificates after you get ordained even tho you only need a letter of good standing and a notary to marry ppl. CoS are supposed to be the original trolls but have somehow forgotten how to troll in the modern world πππππ
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u/TheGrayFawkes Satanist 11d ago
So were you lying when you said it wasnβt official or do you just not know what youβre talking about?
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u/fil42skidoo 12d ago
Are you saying my Church of the Subgenius certificate and ordonation is...merch???? Noooooo....
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u/Sanprofe 12d ago
How is this any different than the literal membership card the CoS sells?
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
Because it isn't merchandise. It is an official membership card which certifies membership. You also can't buy it for other people, get next-day delivery with it, etc. With the membership card, you gain access to some member-only stuff.
And the CoS won't just give anyone the red card. They've been known to refund people they can tell aren't actually Satanists.
Its pretty substantially different, dude.
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u/Any_Flounder9603 11d ago
CoS are just the Catholics of the Satanist world while TST are equivalent to Evangelists... Trying to prescribe a specific dogma to a left handed path/group of non conformists seems pretty oxymoronic imo. CoS is just better at grifting bc they've been at it since the 60s and have had time to perfect their grift
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 11d ago
You're demonstrating a lack of understanding and knowledge about the two organisations.
CoS are just the Catholics of the Satanist world while TST are equivalent to Evangelists...
Catholics & Evangelicals still share the same foundational text. Meanwhile, TST openly reject The Satanic Bible.
Catholics & Evangelicals still share the sams core beliefs which separate them from Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists. TST openly rejects core ideals of Satanism.
Evangelicals weren't created as a joke for a mockumentary. TST was. Someone dressing up in a crucifix and a bishop hat aren't automatic catholic, especially if they're doing it as a parody/satire (which you conceded TST is).
Not to mention how this isn't how denominations work at all. Denominations form from different interpretations of ambiguity in the same central text/idea. This, in the case of Christianity, results from 2,000 years of different translations and edits. The same cannot be said for The Satanic Bible. Nor can Christians refer back to filmed explainations of Jesus clarifying what he meant. We can with TSB.
Trying to prescribe a specific dogma to a left handed path/group of non conformists seems pretty oxymoronic imo.
Its not. You're just misunderstanding the situation. Satanism is a specific religion. Just as how Thelema and Satanism are objectively different religions.
CoS is just better at grifting bc they've been at it since the 60s and have had time to perfect their grift
If you think a 1-time fee for life-long membership is a grift, then you really don't understand money.
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u/michael1150 ~Β°β’*π€Β°β’*~ 11d ago
...If someone dresses up as a parody/satire of the Catholic Church, doin' it to mock them,Β
they're Ghost (B.C.).Β
https://youtu.be/S7bihl20nQU?is=E759xDOU02zl5YXXΒ
det bΓ€sta utsΓΆkta!!Β
ππβΌοΈ
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u/Animosity1127 12d ago
As someone who has recently joined the satanic temple, I know it isnβt actual satanism. But this post really makes me feel like thereβs something else Iβm missing about it.
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u/Any_Flounder9603 11d ago
"actual satanism" isn't really a thing... Satanism is about opposing/questioning the systems created by Christians to force ppl to conform. Satanism is about being an independent thinker anyone who tries to tell you there's a "right way" to do satanism is just pretty much doing the same things Christians do when they try to hide from the fact that their religion enables abuse... There's no right or wrong way imo so long as your goal is to oppose the Christian status quo
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u/CaffeinatedSatanist Satanist 11d ago
I'd agree that there's no right way. I think there are definitely wrong ways to do it, even with your caveat.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 12d ago
You missed that OP is gatekeeping and the whole post he made is worthless.
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u/TheGrayFawkes Satanist 11d ago
Yes, he is. Thereβs nothing inherently wrong with gatekeeping and people who constantly complain about it just want to force themselves into spaces or labels that arenβt for them. You arenβt a Satanist and never will be.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 10d ago
You just described yourself; congrats.
Nobody cares what you think which is the hilarious thing here.Β
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u/VacationScared3894 12d ago
if you have to share this online you are missing the point... w dont need validation. we are...and that is all
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u/ANordicWizard Church of Satan Warlock 12d ago
You are what? Elaborate, please.
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u/heresjolly 12d ago
I mean if you understood theology "we are" is equivalent to "I am." Hope that helps.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
You are something, but it isnβt Satanism.
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u/EntombedCarcass 9d ago
gatekeeping from satanists in the big 26. you would make the christians proud
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u/DanielleNextDoor Satanist 12d ago
Ok, if you like the label of Satanism so much hereβs one for you. Pseudo-Satanist, feel free to take it. I find it ironic how so many people nowadays consider Satanism to just be devil worship or kindness to all aka Christianity 2.0 without theism.
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u/OvHel 12d ago
Im an inactive βmemberβ of TST whoβs been around for awhile and I would like to push back against the Nazi allegations. Lucien is a douchebag but heβs neither a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer. Also, even though I only stay for friends and not the organization, it does provide community and direction for folks who might otherwise be missing that in their life. Just as much as I push back when the layperson accuses CoS of being a right-wing white nationalist incubator. With that being said, I avoid national participation like the plague but thatβs because all non-profits get buried by infighting and drama, Satanist or not.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
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u/OvHel 12d ago
QueerSatanic has a personal vendetta against Greaves and Jerry I take their opinions and analysis with a grain of salt because of the personal nature of their crusade.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 12d ago
QueerSatanic was hit with a SLAPP for criticizing TST, it's not a personal vendetta against Misicko
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u/piberryboy π€π€π€π€π€ 11d ago edited 10d ago
Things can be two things be true at the same time. For example, I can be both hungry and horny.
Also, TST can hit QS with a SLAPP and QS can have a vendetta against TST. Given that QS originally stated they wanted TST to join the Black Lives Matter movement and threw a temper tantrum by vandalizing a TST facebook page when they didn't get their way, then I would say that points to a vendetta.
Also, if Greaves were a Nazi, he probably super hates Jerry, who is Jewish. Man, why did he start a religious movement with that guy?
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 11d ago
Keep covering for them. You know the truth, but you choose to deny it. Then again, you're a TST subreddit mod, so your bias is pretty obvious
Remember how you whined about St Jude's fundraising? I do
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u/piberryboy π€π€π€π€π€ 11d ago edited 9d ago
Whenever someone attacks me rather than my argument indicates my argument is sound.
Thank you for the confirmation.
Remember how you whined about St Jude's fundraising? I do
Oh, that one girl lied about that. I had told her a month before I'd stopped donating to TST. I even sent her a link to a convo where I literally explain to fucking her that I had stopped. She still left that meme up and commented like I was donating to TST while complaining about St. Jude. But hey, don't let the truth get in the way of a satisfying lie.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
But youβve heard the Might is Right reading, right?
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u/XwhereXwolfX 12d ago edited 12d ago
And Dougβs buddy, the late, former American Front leader James Porrazzo. And their champion of choice, Marc Randazza, attorney to Far Right all stars Alex Jones, Mike Cernovich, Andrew Anglin, and the list goes onβ¦ Then thereβs Gregβs homie Milo Yiannopoulos.
Yes, TST provides community. However, the closer you get to the inside, the clearer these alt-right relationships get.
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u/OvHel 12d ago
Iβve only heard of CoS and LaVey being accused of flaunting Might is Right as practically canon to their doctrine.
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u/SubjectivelySatan π€ Satanist π€ 11d ago
Doug literally illustrated a copy of Might is Rightβ¦ thereβs a lot of history youβre missing.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
So, you haven't heard the recording of Doug going on a pro-fascism rant and throwing out the N-word like it's nothing?...
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u/TertiaWithershins 2d ago
And even more recently touting eugenics like it's his hobby (it is), and calling people "retards," while he is a grown-ass 50+ year adult.
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u/TertiaWithershins 2d ago
I personally witnessed the disgusting smear campaign members of TST (who were Doug's friends) waged against QS. They falsely (and knowingly) accused them of domestic violence. One of them even doctored video footage from a court case to try and make it look like it was Nathan from QS on trial. They claimed QS were neo-Nazis because someone they knew had a connection to someone sketchy on Fetlife, of all places. They even published articles attacking the queer identity of QS members (remember "Queer Satanic is Neither Queer Nor Satanic"? I do!) and claiming to know members' disability status. It was some Scientology-level shit, and I don't know how it COULDN'T be personal to QS after that.
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u/Elle-420 12d ago
Iβm going to have to do some research on all of this. If the dudes a Nazi sympathizer/white supremacist then WTF is doing in TST.
Thanks for bringing this up so I can look into it myself, I hadnβt heard of any of these things.
Always do your own research, and think for yourselves. Never take a Reddit post as gospel until youβre fully informed. π«Άπ»
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u/SubjectivelySatan π€ Satanist π€ 11d ago edited 11d ago
So thereβs a really long history of Doug and another guy (Shane Bugbee) wanting to republish Might is Right. Doug wanted to do the illustrations for it. They were also on a Might is Right podcast together where a lot of repugnant shit got said. They also both have a fascination with cults and said it would be easy to start one. The whole concept around TST was two fold: to be a political troll group and to have a merch store they knew thousands of people who are into the aesthetic but wonβt look into it any further and adopt a cult-like affinity to it purely based on politics. They were right. Iβm pretty sure Doug considers all the members of TST to be complete idiots who are easy to manipulate into cult like behaviors like chucking millions of dollars at him to be a troll. He trolls the court systems and the people in TST for thinking they are actually seriously pursuing anything. If youβve read the court cases you know the lawyer is a clown and isnβt actually trying. Heβs been sanctioned multiple times for it.
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u/michael1150 ~Β°β’*π€Β°β’*~ 11d ago edited 11d ago
Quite Right, Doctor Wabbit!!Β
The MAIN problem with Satanic Templers is NOT that they have an affinity to Satanish Γ¦sthetics with little (I'd say practically NO) actual philosophical glue to it, it's that they DON'T apply ANY critical thinking skills to what they claim to believe... they already believe 90% of TST "philosophy" simply by way of being Late Millenial & Gen Zed (or Zee, if you prefer).
Please, Satanic Templers... actually watchΒ Doug Misicko & Cevin Soling β LOOK at what they DO rather than apply blind loyalty to what they SAY they're doing! And as for your knee-jerk defense?! Look into their backgrounds.Β
And Mikey's two shillings? There isn't actually anything wrong with The Satanic Temple AS The Satanic Temple (& I'm going to get some flak from Church of Satan mamber on this, I'm quite sure).Β
If you take JUST the Seven Tenets & their holidays, & ONLY those, & call it Satanic Templarism? It's fine.Β But as u/SubjectivelySatan said, indeed as We in Church of Satan have ALL said time-&-time again β Satanism (not the redundant "LaVeyan Satanism", as it's never necessary to say) was founded a solid 47 years before The Satanic Temple. And to boot, The Satanic Temple was started as a satirical joke, a barb aimed at State of Florida's Law (and the Governor too) about "After School Bible Clubs". That's a solid & documented fact. There's a video still on YouTube, I believe.Β
Satanic Templers would do well to "renounce the faith"... and if you're serious about your Satanic leanings, take another look at The Satanic Bible.Β
If not? Stop calling youselves Satanists & call yourselves 'Satanic Templers'.Β
Back to you, Doctor Wabbit... π
π©βπ¬π
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u/SubjectivelySatan π€ Satanist π€ 11d ago
Haha always good to see you again. Iβve been βlocked inβ lately and unable to enjoy the conversation here for a while. But itβs always good to pop back in.
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u/michael1150 ~Β°β’*π€Β°β’*~ 10d ago
Wocked into wabo'atowy, I pwesume, eh Doc?... πΒ
"...workin' Nine to Five, what a way t' make a livin'...πΆ"
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u/Happy_2622 8d ago
For sure that Thulian guy is a Nazi, video of him at Nazi rally, all of it. I could care less since when so much SHIT is thrown on poor working class white people (I am POC btw), I can see them being drawn toward that. Same happened to blacks before that and imo they handled it a lot better, or most did. Not so sure about these days. The whole thing SUUUUUCKS.
What I really don't like (and find really creepy) is that the Thulian guy, don't know how to explain it, it is like he is trying to steal LaVey, make him into something he is not. He even insinuated himself into LaVey's family, eg, Stanton and his wife, and I THINK collaborated with ToS! Not sure.
What I DO know is that the loudest rah rah types FOR Might is Right have NO MIGHT AT ALL. And today, those that REALLY DO have incredible MIGHT (like the might to get a superpower to start a war for them!), scream victim every chance they get.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 8d ago
The head of STS has child abuse and neglect charges, claims that Anton LaVey comes to him in dreams, etc. unlike it being thrown around as a pejorative, Legevordian is an actual Neo Nazi, and Misicko is quite cozy with the far right
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u/Soptifed 12d ago
Isnt Satanic Temple filled with nazis and abusers?
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
I wouldn't say 'filled with', as thats essentially building a strawman. There are certainly some with a fascistic past, and there are allegations of unchecked abuse, but just as TST members are wrong in claiming the CoS is full of nazis and abusers, so is claiming that about TST
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u/Dark_Green_MkII 12d ago
A neo-Nazi is about the last person to be interested in joining a group like TST. But it's large enough that there are undoubtedly some abusers of one sort or another within its ranks and ownership.
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u/FreshTony 12d ago
COS members spend more time thinking about TST than TST members think about COS. Absolutely living rent free, pretty sad really.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
No, TST forums also often rant about (and blatantly lie about) the CoS quite often, too.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
TST are that loud and obnoxious itβs hard not to notice them.
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u/Dark_Green_MkII 12d ago
About the only times I see any mentions of The Satanic Temple without going looking for them are a couple times a year in the news, regarding some court case they are involved in, or occasionally here -- a LaVeyan subReddit. Why even make a "meme" and reminder post about them, because of some complaints sent to Moderators?
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
Well, it does regularly come up on this subreddit, as as mods, OP, myself, and the others have to deal with it more often.
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u/Dark_Green_MkII 12d ago
So the answer is to make some lame meme post reiterating TST sucks, instead of just "dealing with it" behind the scenes as Mods generally do? The "stratification" of up/down votes and individual users simply blocking others they find annoying and pointless isn't sufficient -- being another person bringing TST up yet again on a LaVeyan sub, then complaining about it is the way to go?
"Living rent free," indeed....
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
When issues become more consistent, maybe subreddits and other forums will make posts clarifying the position of the forum. Thats just how online forums operate.
It's not living rent free if it is consistently brought up anyway. Thats just being observant.
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u/FreshTony 12d ago
The only time I see posts about them is when a cos member is actively talking about them and I live in Massachusetts where their headquarters is.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
Weβve had 2 posts on here in the last 24hours, but the OP deleted them.
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u/Dark_Green_MkII 12d ago
So the "problem" eventually solved itself, by the TST sympathizers essentially "self-deporting," and self-censoring? Why "stir the shit" by making a new post just to mock and categorize the TST here?
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
Maybe I enjoy it
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u/Dark_Green_MkII 12d ago
And maybe I enjoy cake-farting, but I'm not going to make a post about sub-par CFers here, in a non-related sub.
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u/FreshTony 12d ago
Ya makes sense they deleted them, probably got relentlessly harassed by cos members that have nothing better to do.
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u/modern_quill Agent | Warlock IIΒ° CoS 12d ago edited 11d ago
That isn't what happens. People hate to face the fact that they've been conned, so they double down on it and run to a safe space where they can cry about gatekeeping together.
There was a time not long ago when we just called it having standards.
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12d ago
[removed] β view removed comment
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u/modern_quill Agent | Warlock IIΒ° CoS 12d ago
That's not how we have an adult conversation here. Standards.
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u/Any_Flounder9603 11d ago
Please explain to me how CoS itself isn't also a con job? Religion is supposed to be free expression. Gatekeeping on who's "real" only makes you seem like Christians with Satan as a theme. Organized religion in general is a scam but ppl will keep flocking like sheep bc for some reason we feel like we need to belong in "official" and "exclusive" spaces
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u/modern_quill Agent | Warlock IIΒ° CoS 11d ago
Joining CoS was never a requirement for someone to consider themselves a Satanist. In fact, people are discouraged from joining, turned away, or kicked out for various reasons. CoS isn't a cause, it is an organization that connects like-minded individuals for collaborative efforts. It is very clear about that. There's nothing dishonest about it. Instead, what TST is doing is selling an identity to people, regardless of whether or not it actually fits. People get to feel good about being a part of an organization that is "doing something" even if that something is entirely an illusion and those individuals have nothing to do with it in the first place.
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u/modern_quill Agent | Warlock IIΒ° CoS 11d ago
Joining CoS was never a requirement for someone to consider themselves a Satanist. In fact, people are discouraged from joining, turned away, or kicked out for various reasons. CoS isn't a cause, it is an organization that connects like-minded individuals for collaborative efforts. It is very clear about that. There's nothing dishonest about it. Instead, what TST is doing is selling an identity to people, regardless of whether or not it actually fits. People get to feel good about being a part of an organization that is "doing something" even if that something is entirely an illusion and those individuals have nothing to do with it in the first place.
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u/GrafVonMorgenstern 12d ago
Im surprised no one has blamed Boyd Rice, for something vague that's not related to anything, as of yet.
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u/Clawingnails 12d ago
I love my certificate, it's pretty on my wall. I am an occultist so I embrace all things occult as they serve me, I do not care what others feel or think.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
How is TST occult, though? Its a leftwing troll group. Everything is pretty public and without depth.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
TST is most definitely not occult.
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u/Clawingnails 11d ago
That answer will just have to stand for it self....
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 11d ago
The word occult comes from the Latin occultus, which means "hidden," "secret," or "concealed".
What exactly is hidden or secret about TST? They go out of their way to let you know who they are and what theyβre about.
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u/Clawingnails 11d ago
That is a very narrow understanding of the word (literary obviously we all agree), no Satanist believe in Satan and many of us are open and public about our practices, TST actively perform rituals that are lifted straight from occult traditions. They also use the exact same aesthetic and physical tools that occultists, esoteric groups, and traditional Satanists have used for centuries. This is a strawman argument. I am not saying they are an occult organization. In terms of action and form, they _practice_ occultism.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 11d ago
It's occult. Why am in the group having this debate....
Then you should be able to explain why a satirical political group is 'occult' in any real sense of the word. What about it is hidden?
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u/Clawingnails 11d ago
I'll post the same answer to you:
That is a very narrow understanding of the word (literary obviously we all agree), no Satanist believe in Satan and many of us are open and public about our practices, TST actively perform rituals that are lifted straight from occult traditions. They also use the exact same aesthetic and physical tools that occultists, esoteric groups, and traditional Satanists have used for centuries. This is a strawman argument. I am not saying they are an occult organization. In terms of action and form, they _practice_ occultism.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 11d ago
I well, for about 10 years, TST were distancing themselves from rituals. The few they made aren't based in occult traditions, nor are they genuine rituals. Like their 'abortion ritual' it was created purely for political reasons and essentially just includes reciting one of their 7 tenets. And many TST members explicitly disparage rituals. This is why i included that their beliefs & practices have no depth that occult practices do. I may dislike Thelema but its a lot deeper than TST's parody.
There also aren't any 'traditional Satanists', as demonstrated by academics.
TST and their beliefs are literally just satire to troll Christians for political means. Putting Pastafarians in pentagrams doesn't make them occult. Occultism is more than that.Β
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u/Infinite_Rip_7366 12d ago
Yet, here you are...
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u/Clawingnails 12d ago
What does that even mean? I am simply expressing an opinion. My comment has nothing to do with me caring or nor caring about comments on this posts. That is life in general.
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u/Boobity_McBooberson 12d ago
Sounds like a bunch of cope. TST is by far the largest satanic organization, like it or not they lead in what modern satanism is.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
Where are you getting your information? Last I checked the CoS numbers are only known to one person.
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u/MrSlops 12d ago edited 12d ago
Has the CoS ever released, or spoke about, any membership numbers? I don't mean exact member count, but even just a range ("over X") or even possibly demographic info?
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 12d ago
In 1967, LaVey claimed to have brought in over 2,500 members. In 1969, it was 5,300 members. In 1970, there were 7,000 active members and 21,000 "crypto-satanists" who adhered to Satanism's philosophy but didn't participate in rituals. In 1971, there were 10,000 active members. Once the Church of Satan / LaVey went more underground in the '70s, membership data stopped being reported, other than in terms of "far too numerous to count," "on the rise," or "very much alive and well...more active than ever before."
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u/MrSlops 12d ago
Where exactly are you getting these numbers from?
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 12d ago
From interviews with LaVey and media coverage of the Church of Satan.
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u/MrSlops 12d ago
Perhaps I wasn't clear, do you have the source for each claimed number?
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 12d ago
Sure. I can do the research for you. It's not like I don't already volunteer enough of my time for this sub. π
"The Devil's Wedding" by I.M. Kamp, Uncensored, August 1967
"Satan's Church," PHOTO, August 1967
"The Church of Satan," Strange Unknown, July 1969
"Church of Satan" by Lance Gilmore, Man Myth & Magic, 1970
"Hoodoo, Voodoo, and You!" by Robert Boeth, Cosmopolitan, July 1970
"Witches are Rising" by Brian Vachon, LOOK, August 1971
"Please Allow Me to Introduce Myself" by Lisa Davis, Prism, May 1990
A thousand pardons for not putting them in proper APA / MLA citation format. I couldn't be bothered right now. Time to eat.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
No, it is and will almost certainly remain secret.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 12d ago
I can't remember the exact quote, but Anton LaVey said something like "If Membership numbers were too low, we'd be viewed as a joke, if they were too high, we'd be viewed as a threat"
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u/MD_Roche CoS Warlock 11d ago
High Priestess Peggy Nadramia, who also serves as the church's archivist, said in a documentary film (either An American Satan or Into the Devil's Den, both from 2019) that the membership total is uncountable, due to the age of the church, the fact that many people don't keep in touch with the administrators or formally resign, and many of the early members are probably dead by now.
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u/Boobity_McBooberson 12d ago
Sure, but COS is in the tens of thousands, where TST is in the hundreds of thousands.
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u/modern_quill Agent | Warlock IIΒ° CoS 12d ago
TST's membership numbers are based solely on an email distribution, which means many people have "joined" multiple times under multiple email addresses. Moreover, joining CoS was never a requirement for one to consider themselves a Satanist.
CoS doesn't want people to join for the wrong reason.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 12d ago
it has happened, as we both know, but they leave quickly
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u/Boobity_McBooberson 12d ago
Does it matter? Even if you restrict it to βjust paying membersβ of each, TST ridiculously dwarfs COS. Itβs not remotely close. And with being much more popular, having a global presence, and getting headlines, TST is who the general public look to as the βfaceβ of satanism. OP saying TST isnβt satanism, might have been a discussion 10 years ago, but now with their rise of popularity, TST are the ones defining what satanism is.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 12d ago
it matters to you because you're an automaton for TST
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12d ago
[removed] β view removed comment
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 11d ago
thanks for the personal attack, it shows you have no argument but parrotimg theit debunked kidz kwick guide
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
You have no idea on the accuracy of this estimate. But even if youβre correct, Iβll take quality over quantity every time.
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u/Dark_Green_MkII 12d ago
It's unlikely the Church of Satan has ever had "tens of thousands" of members at any one given time -- particularly since it touts itself as the vanguard of the "Alien Elite," and charges $200+ for membership.
And falling back on, "Well, even if you're right, quality over quantity" definitely sounds like "cope." One can recognize the membership success of TST, and concede they've been the larger, more influential group in what's perceived as "Satanism" in popular culture for years now, without endorsing or respecting them.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
No, it's really not a cope. It is about having standards.
They allow literally anyone to join, including children, christians, muslims, jews, hindus, buddists, etc. Hell, all it is is an email address. How many people have signed up more than once? So, you have no way of knowing how many members TST actually has, nor how many TST members actually identify as actual Satanists.
Like the famous Jedi Knight UK census. Do you think there really are more people who are Jedi Knights than atheists in the UK?... its a slightly different scenario with the same fundamental issue of just blindly taking things at face value.
The CoS isn't about getting as many 'members' as possible.
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u/Dark_Green_MkII 12d ago
"The TST has become larger and more associated with Satanism than the CoS in the past decade."
"No it hasn't."
"Yes, it realistically has."
"Well, even if that's true, we're still better!"
Smells an awful lot like cope.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
Thatβs not what I said, I said there is no way to be sure of how many members of the CoS there are. In reality there is probably more members of TST, but given all you need to do to become a member is to subscribe for free to an email newsletter itβs hardly surprising.
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u/Boobity_McBooberson 12d ago
Even if you put membership aside, the TSTβs tenets are so simple and accessible that they are quickly becoming the definition of modern satanism. So to say βthe TST has nothing to do with the religion of satanismβ, you couldnβt be more wrong.
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
The tenets are that vague and ment to attract the most people, thatβs by design, they have been changed many times over the years to that end.
As for changing the definition of Satanism, this is a ridiculous statement, you can take an existing religion, change everything about it and still call it the same thing. Imagine someone creating a new type of Christianity that didnβt believe in Jesus.
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 12d ago
You mean the Unitarian Universalist Christian-adjacent platitudes for dark edgelords? They don't define Satanism. They define TST's "values," which aren't even universally adhered to among their so-called membersβat least (ironically), not unhypocritically. And they're so "simple and accessible" by design to troll Christians and attract the (m)asses. In fact, they started with 9 tenets and had to dumb it down even further, because 9 was too much. So, yeah, TST has nothing to do with the religion of Satanism.
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u/Boobity_McBooberson 12d ago
Doesnβt matter what you or I think, the group that is the largest will always control the narrative.
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u/ShadowlandWarrior 12d ago
The bar for entry is also far lower in TST, so take that in to account. Anybody can buy the certificate for TST. You can't just buy a CoS card.
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 12d ago
Not to mention, TST allows Christians and other theists into their membership... because they're a political activist organization looking for big (meaningless) numbers, not an organization of Satanism looking for quality members and the "alien elite."
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 12d ago
An email list anyone can sign up to isn't the gotcha you think it is, if anything, why, it sounds like a bunch of cope
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u/Boobity_McBooberson 12d ago
WTF are you going on about? Are you under some delusion that thereβs more paid members in COS than there are in TST?
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 12d ago
There are more Satanists in CoS than there are in TST. You also have no idea how many paid members there are in CoS.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 12d ago
Keep coping
TST's membership is comprised of an email list, for the most part. Again, anyone can sign up. I'm not the delusional one here
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u/Boobity_McBooberson 12d ago
Cope what? lol youβve still failed to make any type of point! Are you trying to say the couple thousand COS members have more of a societal impact because they got fleeced for $200, compared to the 700,000+ members of TST?
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u/TheGrayFawkes Satanist 11d ago
Fewer than 900 Samaritans exist today. If I get 901 people to sign up for an email list (which is how TST counts its members) for a βSamaritan Templeβ that worships Ganesh and rejects the Torah, do we get to redefine Samaritanism?
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u/Thiseffingguy2 12d ago
Didnβt LaVey send out lifetime membership cards for like $5?
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
I donβt think the membership fee was ever that low.
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 12d ago edited 12d ago
The lowest I've found record of is $13 for a lifetime membership (which, adjusted for inflation, is equivalent to $80β$130 today, based on the estimated date of the source), and "active" membership used to cost $10/year.
But I remember reading a flyer or ad from the early CoS that had a $2-$6 range membership fee; I just can't find where I saw itβso it shouldn't be trusted.ETA: After further research, in 1967, it was $13 for lifetime membership and $10/yr for active membership. It went up to $20 for a lifetime membership by 1970. So, adjusted for inflation, that's $130 in today's value for 1967 and $172 in today's value for 1970.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 12d ago
I didn't realize you were the sole decider of what constitutes satanism.
Yes, dear leader, I will believe as told!
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 12d ago
Oh it wasnβt me, LaVey founded it, defined it the Satanic Bible and everything was fine for 40 years, then a small group of people who couldnβt cut it in the CoS created a silly film of people dressed as Satanists pissing off Christians, these people then expanded the joke and created an organisation where they could extract money from fools.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 12d ago
It's free to join. You don't have to spend a cent.
"Couldn't cut it" lol. It literally takes zero effort but okay. You must be the toughest person alive!
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
And yet they still beg donations with misleading claims and shady finances. They bring in a lot of money that it isn't exactly transparent about.
And no, Doug Misicko was upset he wasn't getting titles and joined up with Bugbee & Soling to make a joke mockumentary that both Christians and TST members fell for
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u/michael1150 ~Β°β’*π€Β°β’*~ 11d ago
Yep. That seems to be the only hidden, nontransparent, & "occult" thing aboot TST...Β
their fucking finances.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 12d ago
I don't see or hear anyone begging? Perhaps it's the delusions in your head?
You're acting like a hurt lover who has been cast out by these people that live rent free in your mind.Β
Your gatekeeping is hilarious and pathetic.
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u/MD_Roche CoS Warlock 11d ago
I don't see or hear anyone begging? Perhaps it's the delusions in your head?
Go to the homepage of the official TST website and count how many times they mention donating, shopping, or supporting. Last time I checked I counted 12.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 11d ago
They do a lot of legal work that would cost money...
But I didn't realize everyone is obligated to pay money any time someone says the word. I see your issue now, you have no self control whatsoever.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 11d ago
They do a lot of legal work that would cost money...
Purposefully shitty legal work so they can claim bias in order to donation beg
At most, they've two cases
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 11d ago
You want Christianity in schools. I don't care what you think, mr. Β reddit "lawyer".
Show me them "begging".
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 11d ago
wrong. I want NO religion in schools
both u/MD_Roche and u/ZsoltEszes have given you ways to find them. It is not my job to do the work that you are too lazy to do yourself with a Google search
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u/Infinite_Rip_7366 9d ago
Here are factual, verifiable links to official campaigns and webpages where tst directly solicits donations and sell merch...
General Contributions
Contribute To The Satanic Temple Campaigns: This is the primary portal for general financial support.
Link: https://thesatanictemple.com/collections/contribute-to-the-satanic-temple-campaignsReproductive Health & Clinic Fundraisers
TST Health Abortion Clinic Fundraiser: TST raises funds to support their telehealth abortion services.
Link: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/abortion-clinic-fundraiserSupreme Courtship Fundraiser: This campaign directly solicits donations and sells themed merchandise to fund their free religious reproductive healthcare services.
Link: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/supreme-courtshipLegal Action & Specific Initiatives
Taking on Fake Abortion Clinics & Lawsuits: TST maintains a dedicated fundraiser page for specific ongoing legal battles.
Link: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/fundraiserActive ongoing begging for money.
Again, sit the fuck down kid.
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 11d ago
Now you're moving the goalpost. It wasn't about being obligated to pay. No one's obligated to pay beggars. That doesn't mean they're not beggars. In addition to their website, I get at least one email a week (up to 4/wk) from TST begging for money and pimping their merch, and Facebook keeps feeding me their ads begging for donations for their latest scam.
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u/MD_Roche CoS Warlock 11d ago
Are you a former TST member? Is that why you get their emails?
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u/ZsoltEszes Keep your distance; I have a flair up π₯ 11d ago
"Former member" only in the sense that I signed up for their mailing list years ago out of simple curiosity ("know thine enemy," and all that). Another bit of evidence that their membership numbers are bull.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 11d ago
You claimed they're begging, prove it.
That's the goal post. I stand by my statement that they don't beg for donations. Now prove they "beg".
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u/Infinite_Rip_7366 12d ago
It's not even about defining Satanism, it's the fact that TST is not a religion. It's a political activist group. Nothing more, nothing less.
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 12d ago
You should probably look up the word religion and think harder next time.
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u/Infinite_Rip_7366 9d ago
It's a political activist group.
I am a Satanist in the Church of Satan. THAT is a codefied religion. TSTs email distro list and merch/donation hustling is not.
Sit down kid.
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u/Mildon666 π πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌπΌΒ° π 12d ago
I don't see or hear anyone begging? Perhaps it's the delusions in your head?
You're acting like a hurt lover who has been cast out by these people that love rent free in your mind.
Your gatekeeping is hilarious and pathetic.
Well, that's rather rude and immature of you. Ironically, now you're sounding hurt over being cast out...
But no, your imagination is wrong. I merely expressed the facts since I actually try to be educated on these things. If those facts upset you, that's on you.
Also, nowhere did I say TST was begging here. Thats another thing you had to make up out of your emotions. TST as an organisation regularly begs for donations across their site, emails, and social media. You're just hurling insults, again, out of emotions
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 11d ago edited 11d ago
This you claiming they beg for donations? https://www.reddit.com/r/satanism/comments/1vtp9y6/comment/p4zpaj6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=2&utm_content=share_button
Lol, get off the internet.
Try to stop projecting. I'm matching your energy and you're saying I sound hurt. That's your projections again.
This is reddit, you don't need to get emotional.
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u/vholecek I only exist here to class up the place. 8d ago
I mean, heβs not wrong on either countβ¦theyβre really are a shitbag organization, regardless.
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u/Rleuthold CoS ReV, Hell On Wheels 10d ago
That's deflecting and projecting
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u/Organic_Eye_3802 10d ago
Pointing out reality is deflecting and projecting? Stay of the Internet, kid lol.
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u/EntombedCarcass 9d ago
for me the point of satanism is to be against organized religion
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 9d ago
Thatβs such a shallow and ignorant definition, Satanism is so much more than that.
while Satanism isnβt a congressional religion, it is organised, with a central administration, and texts that define it.
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u/EntombedCarcass 9d ago
god forbid someone have a different view to you
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 9d ago
We donβt believe in God around hereβ¦..
But itβs not simply my opinion, your statement is objectively wrong.
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u/EntombedCarcass 9d ago
my statement about my opinion is objectively wrong? you sound more like a theist than a satanist
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u/bev6345 πͺπππππ ππ πΊππππ πΌΒ° 9d ago
How does believing in facts make me theistic? Wouldnβt the opposite be more accurate?
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u/zerosumratio 12d ago
It pretends to be a left wing political organization, but is run by a Nazi sympathetic troll who pockets the cash for his and his friends personal benefits