Does this system style exist?

[u/MickFlaherty]

I am looking for a system that is capable of the following but the installers in the area claim there is no such system. But sights like Anker seem to tout their systems as capable of doing what I want.

I am looking for a system with around 15 x 400W panels, battery system with around 10k to 15kWh of storage, a panel for auto switching for a power outage and a generator port to charge the batteries in case solar and grid are insufficient. The generator does not need to automatically kick in but I want the option to run it and change the batteries in an outage.

The system would be designed to use the solar to get the batteries up to 100% then offset the grid in normal operation. Batteries run down to 20% at night then have grid kick in. Would prefer not to recharge the batteries off the grid since I have no peak or surge pricing, so no advantage to using “off peak” to recharge batteries. No desire to sell back excess solar if it makes the system cost more.

During an outage the solar and batteries would run as much as possible but when batteries drop to like 20% I could get a notification to use the generator to power the batteries and house. If I need a manual switch to use the generator that is fine. Do not want anything with an automatic generator.

Enphase seems to be the main system all the installers around me are using and I’m told their system cannot automatically switch when the grid is off and also allow a generator to power the system. Would either have to choose to manually switch to the batteries in an outage, which seems a complete waste, or not be able to use a generator. I’ve asked if there is a way to manual disconnect the grid to use the generator but they say that’s not possible.

It’s confusing when Anker and Eco and other major battery packs all claim 240V generator pass through. So how is it something with a full controller would also not have that function?

Sorry for length of this but just trying to figure out what’s really possible and if I am just asking for the wrong scope on the system.

[u/OsitoEnChicago]

Sounds like the Franklin battery has what you're looking for: https://www.franklinwh.com/support/overview/generator

[u/thebigdirty → u/OsitoEnChicago]

I have a franklin  setup and I was going to say this sounds pretty much exactly likey system.  Op, feel free to send me aessage if you have questions

[u/SmartVoltSolar]

Yes, we installed a few systems with this exact setup with Franklin apower2 battery with generator modules, and a few with eg4.

[u/arcsnsparks98]

What you're describing sounds like the basic operation of both Enphase and FranklinWH. I've installed both of these systems and they operate as you have described. Using the app, you select the discharge level of the batteries so that the generator knows when to kick in. The system disconnects the solar input to allow the generator to charge the batteries to a level that you specify. It could be 100%, 80%, whatever you want.

[u/MickFlaherty → u/arcsnsparks98]

This is a feature of the generator is a permanent standby like a Generac but they don’t have the ability to just plug a generator in and run it. Seems like it should be able to detect the generator power and use it. Guess I may need to shell out a little more and get a generator installed also.

[u/Curiosity_informs → u/MickFlaherty]

+ 1 for FranklinWH.

FranklinWH battery systems support both a generator and 240V V2L input. FranklinWH can work with a broad range of generators from largish portable generators. We have a 12kW (running) "portable" generator that we plug in and run if needed to top up the batteries in long outages without much sun, which works great. The generator will be running your home and charging the batteries when running, so larger is better, but an 8 -10kW generator should work fine depending on the house loads you want to run when charging the batteries, Check out the r/FranklinWH sub reddit and search generator input to get more detail.

Current generation Enphase 10C batteries don't support a generator input, and the older 5P batteries do indeed require a larger standby generator as you describe.

[u/Juleswf]

You need a FranklinWH battery. It will do what you want.

[u/DiggingforPoon]

I would guarantee that Generac has a combo of stuff that does this, but you would need an expert to help you with that.

I know Sol-Ark or Victron inverters have tri-way inputs (for the solar, grid and genny inputs), with internal ATS's, so that is a good start as well.

It is a grid-tied solar array with battery plus generator backup combined with an automatic transfer switch. You aren't re-inventing the wheel, your installers are just only used to their own products...

[u/MickFlaherty → u/DiggingforPoon]

This sounds about right. All they seem to know is Enphase and right now there is no system that can balance battery, solar and grid with automatic switching between those and a manual generator it seems.

[u/Reddit_Bot_Beep_Boop]

Franklin, EG4, Enphase and Sol-Ark do this. There are more but that's a good starting point.

[u/TastiSqueeze]

You are looking for system automation which is actually all about using automation external to the solar setup to provide power on a schedule you choose. There are several systems that support this functionality with a caveat that you will need someone who knows how to set up system automation.

Examples: SRNE 12 kw HEBP inverter or 18 kw hybrid inverter can do it. Sol-ark hybrid inverters can do it. EG4 inverters can do it. Solis inverters can do it. Microinverter based systems - such as enphase - require add-on equipment including batteries and other hardware.

Here is where you are making mistakes and/or asking the wrong questions.

You will need a system sized to produce the amount of power you choose. This is usually enough to displace all current power consumption. Use the inverter/controller to crank the generator and set the battery level at which generator starts and stops. Use automation settings to determine when to produce power for your own consumption, when to send back to the grid, and when to do any other options desired.

The correct question to ask is "How much battery capacity do I need in order to have these capabilities?" A very general answer is that whatever amount of kWh you consume on average, you need that amount of battery capacity in kWh of storage. Say your house uses 60 kwh per day on average, then you install 64 kWh of battery capacity.

The way this would work is if you collect enough power from the sun to charge your batteries on a given day, do nothing except produce power for your consumption. If cloudy days prevent solar from fully charging the batteries, then use the batteries for power until they reach 20% and then crank the generator and charge the batteries until they hit 95% to 100% and shut the generator off. If the grid has peak pricing and the grid provider is paying a premium for kWh sent to the grid during those peaks, then the automation would turn on power export and you would get paid for the kWh sent to the grid. You have to be careful if doing this as it can leave your batteries discharged at night when you could use the power.

[u/MickFlaherty → u/TastiSqueeze]

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Currently my electric is a flat rate no matter when I use it and the utility pays diddly for the energy returned to the grid. So there is no ROI on using the battery to download cheap energy and use to offset higher rates speak times.

My main goal for this whole system is weathering the outages that come with mature trees and above ground power lines. Every 3-5 years we seem to have a multi day outage and they seem to be happening more frequently. So goal 1 is a system that can run the whole house with some A/C. That will require a peak load of probably 7kw and a daily use of around 30 to 40kWh.

I am limited on space and best I will accomplish is probably 15 panels at 400W each. So maybe 6kw peak. 24kWh total daily generation?

So maybe I eliminate my winter bill and cut 40-60% off summer and have a system that can last for a short outage.

The issue is on the longer outages I cannot rely on the solar alone and would need a plan to use the generator. That’s where I’d prefer to just have a tri-fuel generator I could also use for camping and tailgating instead of sinking all that money into a fixed standby unit.

[u/TastiSqueeze → u/MickFlaherty]

This is totally doable. Here is a list of SRNE hardware that would do the job.

SRNE HEBP 12 kw inverter (about $3500) - 12 kw continuous and surge to 24 kw if needed, grid tied, 200 amp pass through

6 kw of solar panels based on your roof restrictions (expect to pay $2000 plus another thousand for mounting hardware

45 kWh of battery storage capacity (SRNE UL listed batteries are roughly $3000 each)

Generator rated at least 6500 watts continuous with remote start capability, there are some special requirements for the generator!

1 new breaker panel set up for critical loads and some electrician wiring labor which will cost about $2000.

Installation of the hardware is where you will get prices all over the place. You should be able to get this installed for around $5000 in labor and maybe another $3000 for profit. But this entirely depends on where you live.

The inverter would be installed with CT's on the feed from the meter to prevent export.

There is an alternative way to install this where a generator switch would be installed between your existing meter and breaker panel. Connect the inverter on the generator input and you would be able to flip a switch to pull all of your power from the inverter. The actual generator would be connected to the generator port on the inverter and would use the inverter start leads to crank the generator.

[u/Head_Mycologist3917]

I have a Sol-Ark based system that does what you want. It can automatically start the generator but you don't have to do it that way. My solar installer's sales person didn't think it would work without a big whole house generator but I read the manual closer than they did.

[u/RobLoughrey]

I have an enphase system with a plug for the generator, but I do have to throw a blade switch after a power outage.

[u/MickFlaherty → u/RobLoughrey]

Do you have solar also?

[u/MickFlaherty]

Thanks for all the replies. I should have been clearer that Enphase installers said the controller can control a connected whole house generator when it’s in standby mode, and use that and the solar to power the house and charge the batteries. The issue is if the generator is not “smart” then there is no automatic switching available and everything would need to be setup with manual switches.

This seems to indicate that I could not run the generator and have it plus the solar charging the batteries.

I clearly need to do some more research but I appreciate the replies.

[u/Curiosity_informs → u/MickFlaherty]

See my other reply on FranklinWH. Their battery system supports both auto-start or manually starting a portable generator.

However the generator will be running the home and charging the batteries, and the solar will be off. That is really not a big deal. In an outage if the solar is generating just let it charge the batteries / run the home. If towards the end of solar production (late afternoon/ early evening) it looks like you will need to charge the batteries to run overnight, then run the generator for an hour or so to charge the batteries (when there would have been no solar production anyway).

This worked great for us in multiple outages last winter. Most of the time we didn't need the generator, but when we did we ran it for a couple of hours once the solar production had stopped for the day

[u/Fun_End_440]

Any decent hybrid inverter or inverter/charger will do what you describe. They all have dry contacts to start generators when grid AC is out and they initiate charging at programmed low level

[u/LT_Dan78]

Enphase has a controller that does this. If you have a whole home generator it'll even automatically turn the generator on.

Edit to add, if you want to educate yourself about Enphase, they have a free online university you can sign up for and basically get yourself certified at your own pace.

[u/MickFlaherty → u/LT_Dan78]

Yes. The installer mentioned if I had a connected generator the panel could control it. But I don’t want to get a standby generator, I just want a port to connect one if needed. Thanks.

[u/LT_Dan78 → u/MickFlaherty]

Still the same connection. Just tell them you want it for future and then have an electrician install a generator inlet plug and connect to the controller.

If I ever redo my outside electrical, I’ll have the controller added so I can connect my portable generator.

[u/Curiosity_informs → u/LT_Dan78]

Enphase 5P batteries need a larger standby generator on the generator input, they won't work with a portable generator.

Enphase 10C batteries don't support a generator input

[u/Relevant-Volume-3099]

I agree, FranklinWH like the other comments if you want to us the generator module. The generator would automatically kick on at a determined state of charge to supplement your loads and recharge your battery. However OP said they do NOT want an automatic transfer switch. You can accomplish what you want using a manual transfer switch on a backed up subpanel that is fed from a breaker in the aGate (Franklin ATS). In this case, when you flip the MTS in the backed up loads panel, everything downstream is isolated from the battery system and you can just use a generator to power that panel. However, this would NOT charge the battery like OP wants, rather it would just power loads in the subpanel like a normal MTS system. Personally, I do not see why OP wants to avoid the automatic start using the FranklinWH generator module. Its a pretty slick system and accomplishes everything listed in this post, minus the part about not wanting it to be automatic for some reason.

[u/MickFlaherty → u/Relevant-Volume-3099]

Money and space to install a permanent generator are what I was trying to avoid. I really do not have a good space for the standby gennie. Would rather just have a port and store the generator in the garage when not in use. The battery and solar should be enough to get us through the short outages we seem to have every wind storm that blows through while the generator would only really be needed if we have an extended multiday outage like the one we just had that lasted about 60 hours.

[u/Relevant-Volume-3099 → u/MickFlaherty]

I would do a manual transfer switch on the backed up loads panel that is fed from a breaker in the gateway. Cheapest way to add redundancy to your battery system, but it doesn't charge the battery automatically like you wanted. Its all about what your budget is. Battery systems are not cheap, and if you try to go with the lowest bidder and cheapest product....well you get what you pay for. I understand there are plenty of bad actors in the solar space but you really want an installer that has been in business for a long time that will continue to be able to help you with anything in the future.  People go with cheap installers or get swindled by doorknockers, then those installers go out of business, and the reputable installer are the ones that end up having to help 'orphaned' solar customers get there equipment back up and running if there's an issue. Solar with battery backup is awesome and there are about a million ways to configure a system.  I hope you find a good installer and get the system of your dreams!