There is a version in the History of Middle earth about nameless gods older than Melkor and the Valar. About this beings older than Sauron: There is the dreadful valley in beleriand named Nan Dungortheb where Beren, sorely pressed by Sauron's forces, crossed from north to South. A place where:

"(...) horror and madness walked".

Well, that is the same land identified (in the history of middle earth) as Nan Dungorthin - the land of the dark idols - populated by men that worshipped mysterious nameless deities:

"In Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadow secret, more old than Morgoth or the Ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded west".

Are they related with the "nameless thing older than Sauron"?

Hi did Smaug know about Sauron

also is it likely that they could have teamed up if smaug wasn't killed?

I’m talking about how many years they were physically present in Middle-Earth. For example, Gandalf existed before Arda was created, but he only arrived in Middle-Earth around Third Age 1000, being in Middle-Earth for roughly 2000 years by the time of the War of the Ring. I have a list of much stronger candidates and I did my best to search for the relevant quotes directly from the books

Sauron / Balrogs

These are the strongest candidates. The first mention of both Sauron and the Balrogs is at the start of the Silmarillion, when Arda was just created, and they are already ‘servants’ of Melkor. This is before the two lamps were built by the other Valar:

Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwe and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself.

‘Of the Enemies’ (Silmarillion) 

When Melkor destroys the lamps a little later, he is ‘trusting in the might of his servants’ which may or may not include Sauron and the Balrogs. They are not directly named, but it was stated earlier that Sauron ‘had a part in all the deeds of Melkor upon Arda’. 

But Melkor, trusting in the strength of Utumno and the might of his servants, came forth suddenly to war, and struck the first blow, ere the Valar were prepared; and he assailed the lights of Illuin and Ormal, and cast down their pillars and broke their lamps. 

‘Of the Beginning of Days’ (Silmarillion)

The first concrete evidence of Sauron and the Balrogs being in Middle-Earth comes shortly after the two trees are planted and Melkor consolidates his forces. Tolkien doesn’t give us any date for this so I’ll have to assume it is during the early years of the trees:

And in Utumno he gathered his demons about him, those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle-earth in later days. 

….

And Melkor made also a fortress and armoury not far from the north-western shores of the sea, to resist any assault that might come from Aman. That stronghold was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor; and it was named Angband.

‘Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor’ (Silmarillion)

So both the Balrogs and Sauron were definitely in Middle-Earth by the early years of the trees, and they might have been in Arda earlier than that but we don’t know for sure. The only named Balrog that survived the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age is Durin’s Bane; all the others were killed or fled. Durin’s Bane spent most of his time sleeping under a mountain, while Sauron was in Numenor for 57 years and had no physical form for around a thousand years, so Durin’s Bane is probably the winner for most time spent in Middle-Earth by any living thing. 

Círdan the Shipwright 

Círdan is an Elf, he is one of our strongest candidates who is not an immortal spirit. The Elves awoke at Cuiviénen in the year of the trees 1050. They took a journey west to reach Valinor in 1105, and Círdan was one of their leaders who ultimately decided to remain in Middle-Earth. We don’t know for sure if he was part of the original elves awakening in 1050, but he must have been born sometime between there and 1105, making him ancient even for Elves. As far as I know he is the oldest Elf still alive in Middle-Earth by the time of the War of the Ring. 

Here is the first mention we have of Círdan. The Elves have reached the western shores in Beleriand and they befriend a Maia called Ossë, a sea spirit serving the Vala Ulmo:

When many years had passed, Ulmo hearkened to the prayers of the Noldor and of Finwe their king, who grieved at their long sundering from the Teleri, and besought him to bring them to Aman, if they would come. And most of them proved now willing indeed; but great was the grief of Ossë when Ulmo returned to the coasts of Beleriand, to bear them away to Valinor; for his care was for the seas of Middle-earth and the shores of the Hither Lands, and he was ill-pleased that the voices of the Teleri should be heard no more in his domain. Some he persuaded to remain; and those were the Falathrim, the Elves of the Falas, who in after days had dwellings at the havens of Brithombar and Eglarest, the first mariners in Middle-earth and the first makers of ships. Círdan the Shipwright was their lord.

‘Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië’ (Silmarillion)

This puts Círdan’s birth somewhere between YT 1050 and YT 1105. For reference Galadriel was Born in YT 1362 (Tolkien gives us the exact date for this one!) We don’t know the date for her husband Celeborn, but I imagine it was around the same. 

Treebeard

Treebeard is the only serious contender to Círdan. We don’t know exactly when the Ents were born, but it must have been not long after the Elves. Before the children awake, Yavanna has a conversation with Manwë, where she expresses concern that Dwarves and Elves will cut down trees. Eru creates the Ents to protect the trees:

‘All have their worth,’ said Yavanna, ‘and each contributes to the worth of the others. But the kelvar can flee or defend themselves, whereas the olvar that grow cannot. And among these I hold trees dear. Long in the growing, swift shall they be in the felling, and unless they pay toll with fruit upon bough little mourned in their passing. So I see in my thought. Would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots, and punish those that wrong them !’

‘This is a strange thought,’ said Manwë.

‘Yet it was in the Song,’ said Yavanna.

….

Then Manwe awoke, and he went down to Yavanna upon Ezellohar, and he sat beside her beneath the Two Trees. And Manwë said: 'O Kementari, Eru hath spoken, saying: “Do then any of the Valar suppose that I did not hear all the Song, even the least sound of the least voice? Behold! When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

….

Then Manwe and Yavanna parted for that time, and Yavanna returned to Aulë; and he was in his smithy, pouring molten metal into a mould. 'Eru is bountiful,’ she said. ‘Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril.’

‘Nonetheless they will have need of wood,’ said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.

‘Of Aulë and Yavanna’ (Silmarillion)

We also have quotes from both Celeborn and Gandalf regarding Treebeard:

Then Treebeard said farewell to each of them in turn, and he bowed three times slowly and with great reverence to Celeborn and Galadriel. ‘It is long, long since we met by stock or by stone, A vanimar, vanimalion nostari!’ he said. ‘It is sad that we should meet only thus at the ending. For the world is changing: I feel it in the water, I feel it in the earth, and I smell it in the air. I do not think we shall meet again.’ 

And Celeborn said: ‘I do not know, Eldest.’

‘Many Partings’ (The Return of the King)

—-

Gandalf laughed. 'That is better!' he said. 'Well, Théoden. will you ride with me to find Treebeard? We must go round about, but it is not far. When you see Treebeard, you will learn much. For Treebeard is Fangorn, and the eldest and chief of the Ents, and when you speak with him you will hear the speech of the oldest of all living things.' 

‘The Road to Isengard’ (The Two Towers)

Both Celeborn and Gandalf personally know Círdan (see below), yet they both call Treebeard ‘Eldest’ and ‘the oldest of all living things’. This makes me think Treebeard is older than Círdan, having awakened at the same time as the first Elves, with Círdan being from a later generation of Elves. 

For reference, Círdan is one of the 3 Elves that received a ring of power along with Gil-Galad and Galadriel. Círdan is also the one who welcomed Gandalf when he first came to Middle-Earth and gave him his ring:

Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Círdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir. For Círdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return. ‘Take this ring, Master,’ he said, ‘for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.’

(Appendix B)

Shelob

Another interesting one is Shelob; she is younger than Círdan or Treebeard but still very very old. Melkor allied with Ungoliant to destroy the two trees in YT 1495. This marked the end of the years of the trees and the beginning of the First Age. Ungoliant attacked Melkor, and was forced to flee to Beleriand, where she reproduced and gave birth to Shelob. I found two passages that talk about this:

With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.

‘Of the Flight of the Noldor’ (Silmarillion)

—-

There agelong she had dwelt, an evil thing in spider-form, even such as once of old had lived in the Land of the Elves in the West that is now under the Sea, such as Beren fought in the Mountains of Terror in Doriath, and so came to Lúthien upon the green sward amid the hemlocks in the moonlight long ago. How Shelob came there, flying from ruin, no tale tells, for out of the Dark Years few tales have come. But still she was there, who was there before Sauron, and before the first stone of Barad-dûr; and she served none but herself, drinking the blood of Elves and Men, bloated and grown fat with endless brooding on her feasts, weaving webs of shadow; for all living things were her food, and her vomit darkness. Far and wide her lesser broods, bastards of the miserable mates, her own offspring, that she slew, spread from glen to glen, from the Ephel Dúath to the eastern hills, to Dol Guldur and the fastnesses of Mirkwood. But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

‘Shelob’s Lair’ (The Two Towers)

Ungoliant settled in Beleriand at the start of the First Age, and Beleriand was destroyed in First Age 587. Shelob was born somewhere in that timeframe. For reference Elrond was born in First Age 532, so Shelob is probably a little older than him. We also know that Sauron settled Mordor around Second Age 1000, and we are told that Shelob was already in Mordor at that point. 

Tom Bombadil / Nameless Things

Tom claims to have been there before Melkor, and the Nameless Things are described by Gandalf as being ‘older than Sauron’. Both are deliberately kept mysterious and we only have a short paragraph so we cannot really place them anywhere. It feels like cheating but they are probably both older than anything else on the list:

I am old. Eldest, that’s what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

‘In the House of Tom Bombadil’ (The Fellowship of the Ring)

—--

We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.

‘The White Rider’ (The Two Towers)

This gives us the following timeline:

Early Years of the trees: Melkor settles in Utumno with the Balrogs, Sauron is in Angband

Year of the trees 1050: Awakening of the Elves at Cuiviénen, Treebeard is born around here, Círdan is probably born around here

Year of the trees 1105: Círdan leaves Cuiviénen

Year of the trees 1362: Galadriel is born, Celeborn is probably born around here

Year of the trees 1495: Melkor and Ungoliant destroy the trees, start of the First Age

Early First Age: Shelob is born in Beleriand

First Age 532: Elrond is born

First Age 587: End of the War of Wrath, Beleriand is destroyed, Melkor is captured, Sauron and Shelob flee, the Balrogs are killed or flee

First Age 590: End of the First Age

The Second Age then lasts for 3441 years, and the War of the Ring happens in Third Age 3019. 

Here is the number of solar years each character has spent in Middle-Earth by the time of the War of the Ring. Each year during the year of the trees is roughly equal to 9,58 solar years. I also assume Círdan and Treebeard are born YT 1050, and Sauron and the Balrogs YT 1. I also include Melkor (from YT 1 to FA 590), because he ended up spending more time in Middle-Earth than most of the others. The First/Second/Third age add up to 7050 years. 

Elrond - 6518

Shelob - probably a bit less than 7000

Galadriel - 8324

Círdan and Treebeard - around 11 314

Melkor - around 14 903

Sauron and Balrogs - around 21 366

Since Sauron spent a couple of decades in Numenor in the Second Age, the big winner is Durin’s Bane for most time spent in Middle-Earth by anybody!

After all, like Ulmo, Gandalf also cares about the Children of Illuvatar. Certainly a lot more than several other Ainur. I know that he was sent to Middle Earth by Manwe to do so, but still.

Additionally, like Ulmo, Gandalf also orchestrates events that ensure the defeat of the 2 major villains (Sauron and Morgoth) even though Eru Illuvatar played some part in them. Gandalf orchestrated events to ensure the defeat of Sauron (Destruction of the One Ring) while Ulmo orchestrated events to ensure the defeat of Morgoth (Earendil and War of Wrath).

Tolkien wrote this letter to a fan to describe his own daily tastes and habits:

I am in fact a Hobbit in all but size. I like gardens, trees, and unmechanized farmlands; I smoke a pipe, and like good plain food (unrefrigerated), but detest French cooking; I like, and even dare to wear in these dull days, ornamental waistcoats. I am fond of mushrooms (out of a field); have a very simple sense of humor (which even my appreciative critics find tiresome); I go to bed late and get up late (when possible). I do not travel much.

Given that he had the money, the time and many destinations close at hand, the only reason he wouldn't travel is if he didn't enjoy it.

But how come he didn't like it? Adventurous people are celebrated in his works, people who want to see the world and different cultures (in his works as elves and dwarves), appreciating far-away nature as well as the return back home. All of this is codified into all of his written works (not just The Hobbit).

It makes no sense to me.

You can totally call me out for just observing the butterfly effect playing out here, but I want to talk about the ramifications of Orodreth sparing Celegorm and Curufin, and then banishing them from Nargothrond rather than ending them there and then.

To me the main points of interest are Angrist, Curufin's dagger that Beren uses to cut the Silmaril, and of course Huan the Hound.

Without the two brothers being specifically sent away, they do not encounter Beren and Lúthien again, Huan doesn't get his chance to finally change sides and save the couple, and Beren never receives the Dwarven dagger that is tough enough to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's Iron Crown. The quest would come to naught.

You could take it a step further and say that without the Silmaril, Eärendil would never have made it to the bay of Eldamar, and no help would come from the west. So much would have been different.

I'm not saying Orodreth could have foreseen any of this, but rather I think that it's yet another example from Tolkien about how pity/mercy on our enemies can produce interesting outcomes that might even help ourselves and those we care about in some unforeseen way.

Orodreth understandably gets a bad reputation for his flakiness, his lack of agency (typically), and for being puppeted by Túrin during his stay at Nargothrond. However at this moment, I think he made a great call.

Sauron was in Numenor when it was destroyed and lost his body in the process. In this timeline, none of that happens. What is likely to happen next?

All the Fellowship lines up to receive their parting gifts from Galadriel.

Aragorn gets the Elfstone, and a sheath for Anduril. Well thought out gift.

Frodo gets the phial, filled with the light of a Silmaril. Comes in handy later. Well thought out gift.

Sam gets his box of soil from her garden. Well thought out gift, and Sam makes the best of it a year later. This was easily the most happy gift, as it ended up pleasing the entire Shire.

Legolas gets a bigger bow and a quiver of arrows. The bow is strung with Elf hair. Interesting, since it would have to be one very long haired Elf who donated the strand. I suspect it all had some "magical" power, since Legolas was able to shoot down a Nazgul steed in the dead of night. I mean, Elves probably have great night vision, to go along with their other vision attributes, like seeing that Eomer is taller in the saddle than the other Riders from miles away. But even an Elf has to have some light to shoot by.

Boromir gets a golden belt, Pippin and Merry get silver belts. As nice as that it, it seems to me that these were the worst of the gifts, as they have no special meaning like Sam's box, or practicality, like Frodo's phial. They are the kind of gifts you bring when you have no clue as to what to give the recipient. Like the husband who has no clue as to what to give his wife for her birthday, so he settles on yet another set of gold earrings, which she will use once before tossing them in her jewelry box. Yeah, I've been there.

But now we come to it. Galadriel has no gift prepared for Gimli. She asks him what a Dwarf would ask of her. And he says he wants nothing, it was enough to see her and hear her kind words. Oh Gimli, you silver tongued devil you! Galadriel seems very pleased with this answer, and insists he name something. And he asks for a strand of her hair, presumably not the same hair on Legolas' bow.

She asks what he would do with such a gift, and he answers that he will cherish it, and if ever he returns home to Erebor, he will put it in imperishable crystal, to become a heirloom of his house, and a pledge of friendship between the Wood and the Mountain. Galadriel give him three strands.

It is part of the legendarium that Feanor once asked for locks of her hair, and she refused him. Refused the crown prince of the Noldor? Yes she did. Yet she gives her hair to a Dwarf. Imagine Feanor, still locked away in the Halls of Mandos getting word of this. Imagine him seethe.

The difference is that Gimli's request was somewhat political. As a Dwarf, he loves to make and admire beautiful things, that much is clear. And Galadriel's hair in crystal would certainly count as beautiful. But he's also going to use it to pledge friendship between Elves and Dwarves. Galadriel was leaving Middle-earth. She was giving up Lothlorien. She had no real reason to do that, since it wasn't going to matter much longer. She did it anyways, so that there would at least be a memory of the brief friendship.

If Galadriel really didn't have a clue as to what gift to give Gimli, she could have done like she did for Boromir, Pippin and Merry, a gold or silver something or other. Instead she brings nothing, and asks him. I do get the feeling she didn't prepare a gift for Gimli for this very reason, that she expected him to ask for something special, something political, some grand gesture.

As always, great thoughts welcomed.

if saruman is an immortal spirit like gandalf and sauron, what happened to his spirit when he died? why wasn’t he sent back to middle earth like gandalf? or is he forced to traverse it as a powerless wraith forever like sauron after the ring was destroyed?

I've been thinking about the strange status of Ungoliant and the "Nameless Things" mentioned by Gandalf, and I'd like to propose a speculative interpretation.

I'm not suggesting that Ungoliant, or any other such beings, existed before Eru, nor that they are independent of Eru in an ontological sense. Eru remains the absolute first cause and the source of all existence.

Rather, what if some beings emerged spontaneously as a consequence of the creation of Arda itself?

In other words, there could be a distinction between beings directly created by Eru or the Ainur, and forms of life or existence that arose naturally from the conditions established by the creation of Arda.

Under this interpretation, Ungoliant would not necessarily need to be a Maia, a fallen Ainu, or an entity from "outside" Eru's creation. She could instead be an extremely ancient and anomalous manifestation of properties inherent to Arda itself.

The same idea might potentially apply to the "Nameless Things" beneath Arda. They are described as being extremely ancient, unknown even to Gandalf, and dwelling far beneath the known world. Perhaps they represent forms of life that arose in the earliest stages of Arda and developed completely outside the spheres of the Valar, Elves, Men, and other peoples we normally hear about.

This would also explain why their origins are so obscure: they wouldn't belong to the same order of beings as the Ainur, and even the Valar wouldn't necessarily have created or encountered them.

I'm not claiming Tolkien explicitly intended this. It's more of a thought experiment: could Arda itself have a capacity for spontaneous emergence within the framework established by Eru's creation?

And if so, could Ungoliant and the Nameless Things be examples of that?

Hi everyone,
I’ve been diving deep into Tolkien’s lore recently, specifically the concept of Morgoth’s Ring and the psychological tragedy of Melkor himself.

Melkor was originally the most powerful of the Ainur, filled with a massive drive for self-expression. However, when Eru publicly humbled him during the Music of the Ainur, while later showing grace to Aulë for a similar transgression, Melkor lacked the emotional tools to process that rejection. His desire to express himself eventually twisted into envy, frustration, and an obsession with total dominion.

This led me to a cosmological thought experiment regarding Tom Bombadil's true nature.

What if Tom isn’t necessarily a "soul fragment" in the human sense, but could perhaps be viewed as a primordial, residual aspect of Melkor? It is fascinating to imagine Eru subtly intervening here as a form of cosmic, poetic justice: preserving the innocent spark of Melkor's original nature, while allowing his corrupted, ambitious self to suffer the consequences of his choices.

During the Ainulindalë, Melkor's initial theme began as something pure before turning dissonant. When Melkor later descended to Arda and began the long process of pouring his native power into the physical matter of the planet, one could imagine that this massive physical discharge might have triggered a spiritual fracture.

One could consider whether Eru might have guided this moment, allowing the corrupting, power-hungry energy to bind itself to the earth, while the lingering, uncorrupted musical vibration of Melkor's pre-fall state was severed and condensed into a living entity at the exact moment the world materialized.
In this view, Tom Bombadil could represent the living, innocent echo of Melkor’s very first thought before his fall.

This framework seems to fit surprisingly well into Tolkien's world as an interpretive lens.
The Ainur are primordial cosmic forces rather than finite mortal beings, and in ancient mythologies, divine entities often project or leave behind residual aspects of their original state. When a cosmic entity disperses its essence into an entire planet, the physical manifestation of an uncorrupted leftover echo would align naturally with that mythological logic.

It might also offer an interesting explanation for Tom’s complete reliance on song and rhyme. If he were the lingering echo of Melkor’s original theme, released when Melkor began shaping the physical realm, it could explain why Tom holds such unique and effortless power over his domain purely through his voice.

It might also reframe his famous statement that he was there before the Dark Lord came from Outside. As an echo of that first pre-dissonant state, Tom would naturally remember the world before Melkor's theme twisted into hatred and before he manifested physically as the Dark Lord. For Tom, that bitter persona would literally feel like a separate entity that arrived later.

Furthermore, Melkor's downfall was his obsession with forcing his own creations onto the world, whereas Tom displays the exact opposite trait. He appears to have zero interest in creating, reshaping, or ruling anything, taking joy simply in the existence of the world as it is. He could be viewed as a manifestation of Melkor's energy freed from all ambition.

That might also help explain his immunity to the One Ring. Sauron’s power is merely a fraction of Morgoth’s former magnitude, adapted from watching his master bind power to physical matter. If Tom were an echo of that primordial Ainur essence, Sauron’s Ring would have no leverage over him because it feeds on the desire for control, which is the very trait that would have been stripped away from this lingering spark.

The poetic irony of this scenario would be that Melkor spent eternity failing to create independent life, only to accidentally bring forth the most unique entity in Arda not through deliberate creation, but through the surrender and fracture of his original self.
While Melkor's corrupted shell was eventually cast into the Void, his original, innocent spark would remain behind as Tom Bombadil, content to simply exist, care for his forest, and live in peaceful harmony with Goldberry (the very embodiment of the river and nature that Melkor once sought to dominate).

I know Tolkien explicitly intended Tom to remain an unanswered enigma embodying the spirit of the countryside. But purely as a hypothetical thought experiment, I find it fascinating to view Tom as a peaceful, unburdened ghost of who Melkor could have been before his fall.

What are your thoughts on this idea?

Reading the first section of the Fall of Gondolin I kept getting the impression that Melko had literally made creatures out of metal and sorcery to be used as weapons of war. Are these literal creatures, or is it a way of describing engines of war like tanks, cannons, rams, etc?

I think that the tragedy of Melkor's Evil ended up producing a greater beauty and Good than Evil had ever imagined. Of course, this is an aspect of Christian (Catholic) theology that Tolkien inserted into the Legendarium:

• Death as punishment and gift of Eru to men. For mankind will have a privilege that not even the elves will have: to stand by God's side after they leave Arda, whether in joy or sorrow;
• Life and death are the Yin and Yang of cycles of creation, destruction and renewal. This prevents the stagnation of life. Can you imagine if everything was perfect and harmonic? I imagine that everything would be tedious and stagnant.
• The arrival of Eru himself to heal the wounds of Evil in the world: Finrod and Andreth's dialogue (in the History of Middle Earth) says that Ilúvatar will enter his work to save his children. Obviously, this is a reference to Jesus Christ. But I think that the Silmarillion itself references an even greater beauty (than the Ainur, than that of the Elves) would come to Arda and "and evil yet be good to have been.’:

he raised his head, as one that hears a voice far off, and he said: ‘So shall it be! Dear-bought those songs shall be accounted, and yet shall be well-bought. For the price could be no other. Thus even as Eru spoke to us shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Eä, and evil yet be good to have been.’

This beauty "not before conceived be brought into Eä" is, IMHO, a reference to Jesus Christ.

The Catholic idea of felix culpa cited in the Exultet at the beginning of the Easter Vigil, the night before Easter, which proclaims in part,

O certe necessárium Adæ peccátum, quod Christi morte delétum est! O felix culpa, quæ talem ac tantum méruit habére Redemptórem!​

usually translated as

O truly necessary sin of Adam, destroyed completely by the Death of Christ! O happy fault that earned for us so great, so glorious a Redeemer!​

Fr Jonah Pollack, a Dominican Friar in New York, explain the concept of "Felix Culpa":

The sin of Adam was necessary so that it could be destroyed by the death of Christ. Adam’s fault is happy because it necessitated Christ’s redemption. The sin of Adam is greeted with jubilation because it created the problem to which Christ’s redeeming death and resurrection is the solution. It brought on the disease for which Easter is the cure. To be sure, the sin of Adam is not itself good. It is not, in itself, a cause for rejoicing. It is, rather, an occasion for good. It is the tragic plot twist that sets the stage for the story’s glorious resolution. Our rejoicing is therefore is not that Adam sinned, but that, out of Adam’s sin, God brought about a greater good.​

https://opeast.org/2016/03/o-happy-fault/

Even Saint Augustine said that:

God judged it better to bring good out of evil than not to permit any evil to exist.

This concept is intimately intertwined with the Problem of Evil, which arises from Free Will:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.​

This does not justify or excuse evil in any way, nor is Eru in any way responsible for their evil actions; only that in the ultimate end, Eru’s designs may not be opposed, and he will overcome all evils of his fallen creatures to achieve good beyond the measure of their wickedness.

Inspired by the recent discussions about Thror's map, I wanted to look into in-universe maps and cartography in Middle-earth. Discussions normally revolve around Tolkien's and Christopher's maps included in the books, as well as fan-made ones, but there's hardly any mention of the actual maps peoples of Middle-earth had and used. So let's have a look at what we can gather :)

First Age seems to be completely devoid of maps. At least, there's absolutely no mention of them, in either published or unpublished works. That doesn't mean they didn't exist, of course. We are given very detailed descriptions of the geography, and, for example, the streets, squares, and markets of Gondolin; all that knowledge might have come from maps. Or maybe it didn't. There's a tenuous possiblity that the maps included in Rúmil's Ambarkana ("The Shape of the World") were drawn by him (or by Elves before him), but there's no real evidence to support this, either. We are tempted to believe that the Dwarves might have had maps, as they had extensive underground dwellings, as well as extensive trade routes. But still, no maps mentioned. Instead, the extensive geographical lore seems to have been kept in memory, recorded in books or scrolls, and conveyed orally.

Second Age is where maps and charts definitely appear for the first time. Christopher's footnote in The Unfinished Tales mentions "accurate charts of Númenor" made by the Guild of Venturers but which perished in the Downfall. It's mentioned in the Unfinished Tales that Numenoreans kept records of their exploratory voyages, and while maps or charts are not mentioned in that context, it's logical to assume that at least coastal maps or charts were made.

The biggest piece of evidence of maps comes from the "Description of the Island of Númenor" (Unfinished Tales):

The account of the Island of Numenor that here follows is derived from descriptions and simple maps that were long preserved in the archives of the Kings of Gondor. These represent indeed but a small part of all that was once written, for many natural histories and geographies were composed by learned men in Numenor; but these, like nearly all else of the arts and sciences of Numenor at its high tide, disappeared in the Downfall.

It mentions that such maps and records were also kept in Imladris. Knowing what we know about Numenoreans and their voyages. they were in an ideal position to become Middle-earth's first cartographers. But, to be pedantic, the "accurate charts of Númenor" and the "simple maps" are the only ones that are mentioned.

Third Age is full of maps, for a change. Of Bilbo it is told that "he loved maps, and in his hall there hung a large one of the Country Round with all his favorite walks marked on it in red ink." There's the famous Thror's Map, which was actually made by Thror, and which was probably copied by Bilbo for his own keeping. As Bilbo and the Dwarves are travelling through the Wilderland, they note that "old maps are no use: things have changed for the worse and the road is unguarded." Tolkien's own note to The Hobbit mentions dwarf-maps, saying that it was usual for them to have East at the top.

Maps were made in the Shire, as well. We read that Frodo "began to feel restless, and the old paths seemed too well-trodden. He looked at maps, and wondered what lay beyond their edges: maps made in the Shire showed mostly white spaces beyond its borders."

There's an interesting part in "The Hunt For Gollum" in the Unfinished Tales: the Nazgul learn that Saruman had been lying to them when they capture one of his Dunleding servants sent to spy on the Shire. That servant had charts prepared by Saruman which clearly depicted and described the Shire.

In the house of Elrond there were storied and figured maps and books of lore, which Aragorn and Gandalf studied ahead of the Fellowship's journey, and "the many maps in Elrond's house" are mentioned in a discussion between Gandalf and Pippin. Pippin did have a look at them, but didn't remember them. Maps conveyed nothing to Sam's mind. In The Return of the King, we learn that before Frodo set out from Rivendell, he was shown a map of Mordor that was made before the Enemy came back there. He only had a vague memory of it by the time he and Sam were getting closer to it.

That's all I have. HoME doesn't really offer anything besides what's been mentioned. If I missed anything, let me know :)

If Sauron's goal was order and control, why gang up with the guy trying to mar the whole thing?

Hi what was the hierarchy of the chain of command of Morgoth's forces?

was Sauron directly under Morgoth while working as an administrator and right hand man while Gothmog the Balrog and Glaurung had been the enforcers?

I've been thinking about Thingol's morality lately, especially during the story of Beren and Lúthien.

One thing that really bothers me is his reaction to Beren. If I understand the scene correctly, Thingol would have had Beren killed if Lúthien had not made him swear not to kill him. And then, instead, he demands a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown as the price for Lúthien's hand.

I know that Doriath was closed to Men at this point, and I can understand Thingol being angry or suspicious when a human somehow manages to enter his hidden kingdom and becomes involved with his daughter. But even then, killing Beren seems extremely harsh.

What makes this especially interesting to me is the contrast with The Children of Húrin, where Thingol and Melian often come across as remarkably wise, generous and even compassionate rulers.

So it makes me wonder where Thingol's moral limits actually were.

For example: if Lúthien had not been involved at all, and Beren had simply been an ordinary human traveller who somehow became lost and entered Doriath, what would Thingol have done with him? Would he really have had him killed simply for entering the kingdom?

And what if a group of human children had somehow been found inside the borders of Doriath? Would Thingol have considered them trespassers as well? Would he have expelled them, taken care of them, imprisoned them?

I know these are hypothetical situations, but I'm curious about how other readers interpret Thingol's character here.

Do you see his treatment of Beren as an exceptional reaction caused by his anger over Lúthien, or does it reveal something darker about Thingol's character that is sometimes overlooked?

Do we know what happened to them after the events of the Hobbit? I would think that such artifacts about a secret door into Erebor would be kept by the king under the mountain for posterity, right?

Just as an exercise of imagination I catch myself think about a single volume with diferents tales about Middle Earth. All of wich written by Tolkien, of course. Like an anthology or compilation book with flavours and refresh instead of sagas and essays. A companio book for camping or travellig, well, you know.

So, I start with my index and explanations about choose them.

1. "Riddles In The Dark" - yes, "The hobbit" 5th chapter. Actually, this chapter (specially the first edition version) was published in some few of the first fantasy antholgies during Tolkien lifetime and after that already. And its a good story..

2. "The Tale Of Aragorn And Arwen" - That lovely passage in "Lord of the rings"´s "Appendix A" is a complete tale in fact.

3. "The Quest For Erebor" - Also included in the appendixes, but "Thhe annotated hobbit" gave us a complete version.

4. "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields" - A short story from "Unfinished tales". Maybe not so great if you read isolated from the large scope, but even so a good inclusion I think.

5. "Cirion And Eorl" - Also from "Unfinished tales" can give us the scope missing in the entrance above. And it is a good and complete story in its way.

6. "Of Beren And Lúthien" - Well, Tolkien himself start to wrote all the versions of this story as one of the First Age Great Tales, right? So, let´s pick Christopher Tolkien final edition in "Silmarillion" as a single writing. I believe it will work.

7. "Of Túrin Turambar" - As above, one of the grate tales, it works as an isolated tale.

8. "Of Tuor And The Fall Of Gondolin" - For exactly same reasons as two last entrances, you are understanding

9. "Song Of Eärendil" - Can we put at least one poem? It is a long one and epic in themes. Instead to drawn another "Silmarillion" chapter, I believe that "Lord of the rings" version for the story of Eärendil (one of the first tales written in Middle Earth) find a home in this imaginary collection.

10. "The Faithful Stone" - This small piece of fiction can be found at the drúedain chapter in "Unifinished tales". It is a fine story and very atmospheric. It is complete for read as tale by its own and actually it was because of it that I start imagine a book of Middle Earth tales.

11. "Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth" - Backing to the epics, or almost that, this dialogue scene looks like a great finale for the volume. Even its phillosophical nature the presentation in form of fiction shines bright among ohters "Morgoth´s ring" writtings.

All right, done my post. What do you think about it?

I like to, for some reason, pronounce it without the "h", like "Tay-o-den". Though I assume the correct pronunciation uses the "th" sound, at least that's how it's pronounced in the movies. Did Tolkien ever write specifically about how Theoden and Theodred should be pronounced?

(Edit: Maybe it's just because I like to imagine Theoden as a Scot/Irish, "Mr. Tay O'Den")

Seeing as the question of how tall was Barad-dûr come up every so often and the amount of research I have done on the topic I thought it was a good time to share my revised essay with more evidence as to why The Dark Tower was just unimaginably massive as the first version of the post lacked citations and many sources.

WARNING: Wall of text

TL;DR: Barad-dûr was not merely a tall tower but a colossal fortress. From the Morgai it was visible roughly 75–76 miles away, a distance at which the curvature of the Earth, Mordor's fumes, and Sauron's shadow would have hidden a normal structure. The textual, linguistic, and artistic evidence suggests a fortress of extraordinary height, mass, and complexity, likely rivaling Mount Doom in scale.

I have recently been rereading the Lord of The Rings and the Plateau of Gorgoroth has been an obsession of mine as I reconstruct every nook and cranny of Frodo and Sam's Journey, this made me realize something that baffled me.

1. Distances and Visibility

First, I would like to discuss the distances between the landmarks of the Plateau of Gorgoroth and how far they really are from each other, as the narrative tends to compress Frodo and Sam' journey toward Mount Doom.

As you may or may not know, Christopher Tolkien's map included in the Return of the King has a scale bar.

Using this scale, the distance between the Morgai and Mount Doom comes to roughly 40-43 miles (64.3km-69.2km).

Likewise, measuring from the same point to the centre of the Barad-dûr symbol gives a distance of roughly 75–76 miles, Barad-dûr then is approximately 120 km away from Frodo and Sam, making the following passage even more astonishing.

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter II, The Land of Shadow, page 922-923) :

"[...]and passing through found themselves on the very edge of the last fence of Mordor. Below them,at the bottom of a fall of some fifteen hundred feet, lay the inner plain stretching away into a formless gloom beyond their sight.

"[...]Still far away, forty miles at least, they saw Mount Doom, its feet founded in ashen ruin, its huge cone rising to a great height, where its reeking head was swathed in cloud. [...]Behind it there hung a vast shadow, ominous as a thunder-cloud, the veils of Barad-dûr that was reared far away upon a long spur of the Ashen Mountains thrust down from the North."

Thus, from an elevation of roughly 1,500 feet on the Morgai, Frodo and Sam could distinguish Barad-dûr and its looming shadow even though it lay some forty miles farther away than Mount Doom.

One could argue that you can see skyscrapers or even houses from 60 miles away on a clear day, which would be true.

Atmospheric refraction can increase the visibility of certain objects seen from a distance but the fact is that Mordor is not a place with clean air nor its enviromental conditions would allow for the tower to be seen from that far off, there's also the fact that Sauron uses Shadow for concealment of his movements in Mordor and as psychological warfare(see point 10).

From this first description, Barad-dûr appears less like an isolated tower and more like a vast looming presence being compared to a Thunder-cloud.

2. Tolkien's Approved Illustrations

An additional piece of evidence comes from Tolkien's own discarded dustjacket for the Two Towers in which he depicts Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith within the same visual composition, providing a rare direct comparison between the two great fortresses of the Third Age.

While the drawing was not intended as a precise architectural elevation, it is significant.

Barad-dûr is depicted as a massive, broad fortress rising from a substantial elevated base, while Minas Tirith appears comparatively smaller and more slender.

The drawing therefore supports the interpretation that the contrast between the two fortresses was not merely a matter of height. Tolkien appears to have conceived Barad-dûr as a structure of greater overall mass and vertical dominance: an artificial mountain of iron and stone rather than simply a taller tower.

An additional piece of evidence comes from (NoME) Nature of Middle Earth chapter that comments on the Pauline Baynes illustrations which Tolkien himself chose to depict Middle Earth:

(NoME, Part II chapter VI: Description of Characters, page 191):

"In 1970 Allen & Unwin published a poster-sized Map of Middle-earth, executed by the artist Pauline Baynes, and based upon that included in The Lord of the Rings. On the map itself are a series of vignettes portraying various locations significant to the story, such as the Barrow-Downs and Minas Tirith[...]"

"On seeing the finished art, Tolkien wrote a set of comments on these depictions of places and characters."

Some of these comments are appreciative: e.g. Tolkien found four of the vignettes, sc.those depicting the Teeth of Mordor, the Argonath, Barad-dûr, and Minas Morgul, particularly well-executed, and described them as agreeing “remarkably with my own vision… Minas Morgul is almost exact”

What concerns us here, however, is the illustration made by Pauline Baynes of Barad-dûr; the depiction makes the tower seem not only impossibly tall but also broad.

I recommend looking at the map itself, both because it is beautiful and because Tolkien praised several of its depictions as agreeing remarkably with his own vision.

This brings me to the next point which will be built upon this one as means of establishing a visual picture of the fortress.

3. Architectural Language and Prose

The aforementioned vignette depicts the Dark Tower as a massive complex of stone rather than the slender tower most artists depict, an impression reinforced by the following passage from

[The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, chapter X:The Breaking of the Fellowship page 401]

"[...]and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.

Unlike the descriptions of darkness ,these phrases are clearly architectural: walls, battlements, gates, and towers. They therefore provide stronger evidence for the physical loftiness and broadness of Barad-dûr itself.

Particularly striking is the description "mountain of iron," which, admittedly, could be figurative. However, the comments in NoME and the earlier comparison to a thunder-cloud suggest otherwise.

To further support my argument, I will include additional evidence from the chapter "Mount Doom." This evidence may be the least reliable, since Tolkien usually describes the fortress in metaphorical rather than architectural terms until its fall.

Nevertheless, I believe the following passages support my interpretation.

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III Mount Doom, page 934-935)

"[...]But as they went the most easterly of the roads followed them, until it ran off, hugging the skirts of the mountains, away into a wall of black shadow far ahead.Neither man nor orc now moved along its flat grey stretches; for the Dark Lord had almost completed the movement of his forces, and even in the fastness of his own realm he sought the secrecy of night, fearing the winds of the world that had turned against him, tearing aside his veils

[...]But far worse than all such perils was the ever-approaching threat that beat upon them as they went:the dreadful menace of the Power that waited, brooding in deep thought and sleepless malice behind the dark veil about its Throne. Nearer and nearer it drew, looming blacker, like the oncoming of a wall of night at the last end of the world."

At this point Frodo and Sam are taking the road that goes northwest to the Isenmouthe from Barad-dûr and will soon move away from it across the plateau to reach Mount Doom.

The fortress has been described as a "mountain of iron," a "wall of night," a "tower of adamant," and a looming black shadow; of course, these descriptions could all be metaphorical, which leads to my next point.

4. The Height of Barad-dûr

The narrator also provides approximate heights for both the Morgai and Orodruin, allowing a rough comparison between them.

The Morgai rises roughly 1,500 feet above the plain, while Orodruin stands approximately 4,500 feet high (with Sammath Naur likely being around 4,300 feet, judging from Tolkien's drawing), as we read:

(RoTk, Mount Doom, Book VI, chapter III, page 941)

"[...]The Mountain standing ominous and alone had looked taller than it was. Sam saw now that it was less lofty than the high passes of the Ephel Dúath which he and Frodo had scaled.The confused and tumbled shoulders of its great base rose for maybe three thousand feet above the plain, and above them was reared half as high again its tall central cone, like a vast oast or chimney capped with a jagged crater."

The Fortress then could be inferred with a reasonable degree of certainty that it rivalled or possibly even surpassed Mount Doom in height as its shadows rose above it.

Further evidence of the scale of the fortress comes when Frodo and Sam are climbing towards the Sammath Naur and the veils of the fortress are removed:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 942)

"Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood,the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr.* One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed."*

So it is strongly implied that Barad-dûr was surrounded by, or associated with, a mantle of shadow and that when the veils briefly parted Frodo caught sight of the pinnacles and crown of its highest tower

The use of the word "topmost" also suggests that Barad-dûr possessed multiple towers, with the one seen by Frodo being the highest.

However, when the shadows briefly parted, Frodo perceived architectural features of Barad-dûr itself: its pinnacles, iron crown, topmost tower, and an immensely high window. While the passage does not allow a precise measurement of its dimensions, it does reinforce the impression of extraordinary verticality.

Taken together, this evidence suggests that Barad-dûr may have approached the scale of a mountain in Tolkien's mind.

5. The Meaning of Barad

I will now refer to Parma Eldalamberon and the Sindarin root for Barad to further my argument:

[From PE XVII Words, Phrases and Passages in various tongues in The Lord of The Rings, page 22 and 85]

The names Elbereth, Gilthoniel, Fanuilos.These refer to the great Vala called in Quenya Varda, "the Lofty." In Sindarin Elbereth(rarely Bereth) is her usual name, the other two are "titles."

Q Varda is <barada [which would be in Sindarin \bara'o]. This root, which seems to express great height combined with strength, size, majesty, appears in several variant forms:

(1) ...JBARAT, (2) ...JBARATH, (3)BARAD(4) BARAS. From (1) is derived: S barad, a great "towering building, (fort, city, castle) tower;[also brand, brann 'towering', "tall and massive"(or to noun brand, steeple): cf. Tol Brandir, Isle of the Great Steeples: it was a great upstanding mass ending in two major and two minor steeples.] "

"Barad-dur; barad 'a great towering building, (fort, city, castle) tower'; dur 'dark"

"[See I 250 s.v. Elbereth, I 259 s.v. mar. Cf. EQS barad 'tower', dur 'dark' ; Etym. BARAT-, N barad*

'tower, fortress', 003, D6-, EN dur 'dark, sombre' ; Barad-dur 'the Dark Tower', TI 178.]*

The linguistic evidence from Parma Eldalamberon further refines this interpretation. The BARAT / BARAD root is explicitly associated with concepts of great height, mass, and monumental structure, not merely a “tower.” Its derivatives include forms meaning “tall and massive,” suggesting that barad carries an inherent sense of vertical and horizontal magnitude.

6. The destruction of the one Ring and Sam's vision.

Finally when the ring is cast into the cracks of Doom:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 947)

"And there upon the dark threshold of the Sammath Naur, high above the plains of Mordor, such wonder and terror came on him that he stood still forgetting all else, and gazed as one turned to stone.

A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled"

The description of a 'mountain-throne' is consistent with Tolkien's own illustration of Barad-dûr, which depicts the fortress rising from a massive elevated foundation, this mass most likely being the foundations that couldn't be destroyed by The Last Alliance, this spur also raised the already tall fortress even further above everything else.

The narrative mentions great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and, most remarkably, gaping gates of steel. Based on Christopher Tolkien's map, Sam was also standing over four thousand feet a above the plain at the Sammath Naur and 31 miles from the fortress giving him a clear view of Barad-dûr.

Between the elevation of both landmarks and the unusual nature of the vision itself, I think it's entirely plausible that he genuinely witnessed Barad-dûr collapsing.

It is also possible that Tolkien heightened some of the detail for literary effect, but I don't think those possibilities necessarily exclude one another.

The precise nature of Sam's "brief vision" remains open to interpretation. It may represent heightened perception associated with the Ring, literary narration, or a combination of these possibilities, since Tolkien does not specify.

Regardless of the exact nature of Sam's vision, its imagery is among the strongest evidence for Barad-dûr's immense scale: towers compared to hills, vast courts, dungeons, cliffs, and gates of steel and adamant."

7. The War of the Last Alliance and the siege of Barad-dûr

The next argument draws upon The Silmarillion and Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings.

(The Silmarillion,Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, page 352)

"[...]Therefore they made that League which is called the Last Alliance, and they marched east into Middle-earth gathering a great host of Elves and Men; and they halted for a while at Imladris. It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim."

Then:

(Appendix B: The Tale of Years, The Second age, page 1084 )

"S.A 3434: The host of the Alliance crosses the Misty Mountains. Battle of Dagorlad and defeat of Sauron. Siege of Barad-dûr begins

S.A3440 Anárion slain.

S.A 3441 Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring. Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into the shadows. The Second Age ends."

Seven long years they besieged Barad Dûr and the greatest army in the world at that time couldn't break through.

How could the Last Alliance fail to breach Barad-dûr for seven years? While several explanations are possible, I would argue that its immense size, the capacity to sustain a prolonged siege, and alternate routes although to a much lesser degree as the fortress was being sieged and communication cut off is part of the answer as the next passage reveals:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 942)

\"[...]He did not know it, but he was looking at Sauron’s Road from Barad-dûr to the Sammath Naur, the Chambers of Fire. Out from the Dark Tower’s huge western gate it came over a deep abyss by a vast bridge of iron, and then passing into the plain it ran for a league between two smoking chasms, and so reached a long sloping causeway that led up on to the Mountain’s eastern side."

So it is safe to assume the Sauron road and the Isenmouthe road were the most used but not the only ones; as stated by the text and seen in the illustration by Tolkien having a bridge going east and Mount Doom being west of the fortress and down the Plateau.

[RoTK, Book VI, chapter II :The Land of Shadow,page 923 ]

"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. Here in the northward regions were the mines and forges, and the musterings of long-planned war"

8. Foundations, Scale, and Topography

My final argument concerns the topography of Barad-dûr itself. Tolkien's own illustration(see point 6) of the fortress provides what is perhaps our clearest view of the "foundations" mentioned in The Council of Elrond: the vast stone platform upon which Barad-dûr stood:

[FoTR, Book II, Chapter II: The Council of Elrond, page 244]

"Fruitless did I call the victory of the Last Alliance? Not wholly so, yet it did not achieve its end. Sauron was diminished, but not destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade.The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure."

We should also consider Pauline Baynes' previously mentioned map.

If we examine Mordor closely, Barad-dûr is depicted as taller than Orodruin and considerably broader than it is in most maps and artistic depictions.

The illustration also show a modest base beneath the tower that may represent these foundations.

A more speculative piece of evidence comes from Christopher Tolkien's map. Although the symbol for Barad-dûr is unlikely to represent a precise footprint, measuring it against the map's scale indicates dimensions considerably larger than one mile. Since such symbols are necessarily schematic, I instead adopt one square mile as a deliberately conservative estimate for the fortress's built area.

Even assuming a conservative area of only one square mile, the fortress would occupy roughly 2.59 million square metres.

For comparison, the Burj Khalifa—the tallest building in the world—occupies roughly 29,000 square meters.

Of course, this does not mean the entire area encompassing the fortress was covered with buildings. The fortress probably included open courts, roads, walls, workshops, barracks, and other structures. Even allowing for that, the available area remains enormous by the standards of both historical fortifications and modern buildings.

For further perspective, an area of one square mile is roughly three quarters the size of Central Park and approximately equal to London's Financial District

9. Adressing the Nature of the shadow about Barad-dûr.

The descriptions of Barad-dûr combine physical architecture with imagery of darkness and concealment. However, Tolkien appears to distinguish between the fortress itself and the supernatural shadows surrounding it. 

"The 'veils' and 'mantle of shadow' associated with Sauron's stronghold appear to be manifestations of Sauron's power and will rather than extensions of the physical structure itself."

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 934)

"Neither man nor orc now moved along its flat grey stretches; for the Dark Lord had almost completed the movement of his forces, and even in the fastness of his own realm he sought the secrecy of night, fearing the winds of the world that had turned against him, tearing aside his veils."

Here Tolkien uses the language of concealment rather than construction. The "veils" are something that can be torn aside by the winds of the world, suggesting a layer of darkness or associated with Sauron's power rather than an ordinary part of Barad-dûr.

Later, when Frodo approaches the Sammath Naur:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 942)

"[...] but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress."

The phrase "shadow-mantled fortress" is important because it separates two ideas: the fortress exists as a physical structure, while the shadow is a mantle placed upon it. This distinction allows Tolkien's descriptions of Barad-dûr to operate on two levels: an immense fortress of walls, towers, and foundations, and a centre of spiritual darkness radiating Sauron's will.

This interpretation is supported by

[Appendix B, Tale of the Years, The Great Years, 3019, March 9]

Gandalf reaches Minas Tirith. Faramir leaves Henneth Annûn. Aragorn sets out from Erech and comes to Calembel. At dusk Frodo reaches the Morgul-road. Théoden comes to Dunharrow.* Darkness begins to flow out of Mordor.

This suggests that the darkness spreading from Mordor was presented as something more than merely the natural fumes of Orodruin.

The wording presents the darkness as an active force spreading from Mordor, rather than merely the smoke and fumes of Orodruin. While Tolkien does not precisely define the nature of this darkness, the language throughout The Lord of the Rings suggests that the shadow surrounding Barad-dûr and Mordor was both atmospheric and symbolic, reflecting the influence of Sauron.

Although this evidence could perhaps suggest that the fortress could have been lesser in scale, as clear dimensions in any shape or metric were never given in the narrative ; it also opens the possibility that it was broader and taller.

Nevertheless Tolkien did leave it to interpretation and describing the fortress and its surrounding in such vague terms invites the reader to imagine their own fortress or tower.

Appendix 1-Measuring the map

Since the apparent distance between Orodruin and Barad-dûr is not immediately obvious from the narrative, I also measured Christopher Tolkien's map using its printed scale:

6.5 mm = 10 miles

1 mm ≈ 1.54 miles

Measurements:

Morgai shelf to Orodruin: 27 mm ≈ 41.5 miles (closely matching "forty miles at least")

Orodruin to Barad-dûr: 22 mm ≈ 34 miles

Morgai shelf to Barad-dûr: 49 mm ≈ 75–76 miles

These measurements should not be taken as exact. The map symbols are necessarily schematic, especially for a structure as unusual as Barad-dûr. They do, however, provide a reasonable approximation of the relative distances involved.

Appendix 2-The Curvature of Middle-earth (Our Planet)

Tolkien conceived Middle-earth as the distant mythological past of our own Earth. In Letter 211, Tolkien described the fall of Barad-dûr as occurring thousands of years before the present day:

[...]"I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for ‘literary credibility’, even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of ‘pre-history’."

"I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."

Therefore, assuming Middle-earth follows the same physical principles as our own planet, the curvature of the Earth and the angular size of distant objects become relevant when considering the visibility of Barad-dûr from the Morgai.

Horizon Distance

The approximate distance to the horizon can be calculated with:

d ≈ 3.57 × √h

Where:

d = distance to the horizon in kilometres

h = observer elevation in metres

Frodo and Sam observed Mordor from the Morgai, which Tolkien describes as having a fall of approximately fifteen hundred feet. This gives an elevation of roughly:

h = 457 m

Therefore:

d ≈ 3.57 × √457

d ≈ 76 km

Thus, from an elevation of approximately 1,500 feet, the geometric horizon would be roughly 76 kilometres away.

However, Barad-dûr lay approximately 120 kilometres distant according to Christopher Tolkien's map. This means that the fortress was beyond the normal horizon from Frodo and Sam's viewpoint and could only be visible because of its extraordinary height, atmospheric refraction, or Tolkien's deliberate dramatic compression of geography.

The amount of obstruction caused by the Earth's curvature can be estimated with:

h ≈ d² / (2R)

Where:

h = height hidden by curvature

d = distance in kilometres

R = radius of the Earth (\~6371 km)

For Barad-dûr at approximately 120 km:

h ≈ 120² / (2 × 6371)

h ≈ 1.1 km

At this distance, the curvature of the Earth introduces a horizon obstruction of roughly one kilometre. However, this does not mean that Barad-dûr itself would need to be over a kilometre tall, since Frodo and Sam were already standing approximately 457 metres (1500 feet)above the plain and Barad-dûr foundations contribute to its height both of this factors compensated for part of this effect.

The implication is that only the uppermost portions of a sufficiently tall structure would rise above the horizon, making the visible height and angular size of Barad-dûr crucial factors.

Angular Size

The apparent size of a distant object can be calculated with:

θ ≈ arctan(height / distance)

Where:

θ = angular size in degrees

height = visible height of the object

distance = distance from the observer

At a distance of approximately 120 kilometres:

A 500 metre visible structure:

θ ≈ arctan(500 / 120000)

θ ≈ 0.24°

A 1000 metre visible structure:

θ ≈ arctan(1000 / 120000)

θ ≈ 0.48°

A 1500 metre visible structure:

θ ≈ arctan(1500 / 120000)

θ ≈ 0.72°

For comparison, the Moon appears approximately 0.5° wide in the sky.

Although these values appear small numerically, they are visually significant. A structure with 1–1.5 kilometres of visible height at a distance of 120 kilometres would possess an apparent vertical size comparable to, or larger than, the Moon itself.

These calculations do not provide an exact height for Barad-dûr, since Tolkien never gives one. Their purpose is instead to establish the minimum scale required for the scene described in The Return of the King. A normal tower, even a large fortress, would not plausibly dominate the horizon from such a distance under the conditions described in Mordor.

For Barad-dûr to appear above the horizon from the Morgai, it would require an extraordinary visible height, consistent with Tolkien's descriptions of it as a "mountain of iron," a "tower of adamant," and a fortress whose "topmost tower" rose above the surrounding shadows even if a base gave it an edge for it to be seen from great distances.

Conclusion

While none of these pieces of evidence is conclusive on its own, together they point toward a remarkably consistent picture. Barad-dûr emerges not as an isolated tower, but as an immense fortress-city rising from a mountain-like foundation, with multiple towers, vast courts, bridges, gates, and walls. 

Whether it ultimately exceeded Orodruin in height cannot be established with certainty. However, the cumulative textual and artistic evidence strongly supports the interpretation of Barad-dûr as an immense fortress-city: a structure of towers, walls, courts, foundations, and battlements whose scale approached that of the surrounding mountains.

Afterword

Personally, I believe the evidence points to Barad-dûr itself surpassing Orodruin in height—or, at the very least, being of comparable height. The spur upon which it was built would have elevated the fortress still further above the plain.

I also believe it spread across a remarkably broad complex.

These observations also help explain the scale of devastation across the Plateau of Gorgoroth following the Ring's destruction.

I think Sam's account reflects an actual vision of Barad-dûr's destruction, even if Tolkien heightened some of the details for literary effect.

If you've read this far, thank you for indulging my fascination with Gorgoroth and The Dark "Tower". 

I'd be interested to hear whether you think the textual evidence supports this interpretation.

Bibliography

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2023). The Lord of the Rings Illustrated by the Author: A Special Edition. HarperCollins Publishers. [Map of Gondor, Rohan and Mordor by Christopher Tolkien]

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2005). The Lord of the Rings: 50th Anniversary Edition. One-Volume Edition. HarperCollins Paperback. [pp. 244, 401, 922–923, 934, 941–942, 944, 947, 1084]

Tolkien: Maker of Middle-earth, eds Catherine McIlwaine. Oxford: Bodleian Library, 2018, [p. 372]

Tolkien, J. R. R., and Christopher Tolkien (eds.). (2002). The Silmarillion. Del Rey Books. [p. 352]

Tolkien, J. R. R., and Carl F. Hostetter (ed.). (2021). The Nature of Middle-earth. HarperCollins Publishers. [p. 191]

Tolkien, J. R. R., and Christopher Gilson (ed.). (2007). Parma Eldalamberon XVII: Words, Phrases and Passages in Various Tongues in The Lord of the Rings. The Tolkien Trust. [pp. 22, 85]

Tolkien, J. R. R., Christopher Tolkien, and Pauline Baynes. (1969). A Map of Middle-earth. George Allen & Unwin.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2021). Pictures by J. R. R. Tolkien. William Morrow. [Section 30]

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2023). The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien: Revised and Expanded Edition. Edited by Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien. HarperCollins Publishers. [Letter 211]

After leaving Eregion, and finishing the rings, did Sauron keep his fair form on? or did he not do that

So I'm reading the Silmarillion for the first time and I am wondering, with Melkors end game being the destruction of Eä in its entirety, had he defeated the free peoples of Middle Earth, would Sauron eventually turn on him? Not only out of self preservation, but also his need for order and control? They have two very different end games so I am curious as to whether Tolkien ever wrote his thoughts on that. It seems to me, knowing Melkors end game and Saurons nature he would have to turn on him eventually right? Or am I missing something?

In Unfinished Tales it sounds like he immediately gave it to him after the Istari stepped of their boat.

[A]nd one came last who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'