r/trumpet • u/Snif3425 • 2d ago
Question ❓ Pedal tones causing problems?
I am a 52 year old trumpet player who took 25 years off and recently started playing again about 3 months ago.
I’ve been practicing pedal tones for the first time in my life the last couple of weeks. A few days ago suddenly my tone is fuzzy, my lips are curling out into the mouthpiece, corners feel loose, and everything just feels…..weird and weak inside the mouthpiece.
The only thing I can think of is that the pedal tones may be causing some sort of problem? Granted it’s been a LONG time since I was playing regularly but I don’t recall my embochure ever just suddenly feeling “wrong.”
Thanks
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u/DoctorFarthing 2d ago
If you haven’t played in 25 years don’t do pedal tones. Just do long tones in the register, Clarke 2 and 3, arban lip slurs until exhausted and call it a day.
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u/DifferentSwing3149 2d ago
Took 40 years off and just started playing again about a year ago. I only use pedal tones to warm down after playing/practicing. Not too concerned about technique with pedal tones...
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u/Fuddnuddler2400 2d ago
Look on YouTube for three videos by Jack Burt where he demonstrates his expanded Stamp exercise. I’ve been playing professionally for 40+ years and only just started doing pedal tones. Jack’s exercises literally changed my life.
I would also suggest starting your day with air attacks. Find the spot where your lips want to buzz naturally and familiarize yourself with the feel.
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u/Snif3425 2d ago
Sorry, but to what end? I’m having an embouchure crisis here. lol. Not sure it’s the time to be adding things but maybe I’m misunderstanding you?
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u/Fuddnuddler2400 2d ago
I went through a crisis last year and had decided to resign my symphony position. Air starts and pedal tones helped me discover response and finesse in my playing, having come as far as I could as a brute force player. I couldn't play soft, and I had no trust in my mechanics. I teach lots of beginners, and if you are trying to rework your embouchure you could think about treating it like learning from scratch. For a stone cold beginner, we talk about keeping the corners focused to the center (no smiling) and keeping the aperture open. The air makes the sound, not the lips. Make your embouchure and blow gentle air until the lips begin to vibrate. We talk about the 3 Little Pigs. Don't use "house of bricks" air. I believe you want, as much as possible, to play on one embouchure setting. Changes between registers happen more inside the mouth than outside. I tell the kids to think "taller" and "shorter" with the oral cavity, while using the muscles around the aperture to focus the air.
Like someone else in this thread, I went 49 years never doing pedal tones. I started when I began digging myself out of the hole in which I found myself. They really helped me keep focus and response throughout the entire range of the instrument while keeping the embouchure stable. Watch a video of Doc. Dude's corners never move and he's got one of the widest ranges with the fattest sound ever. I would suggest thinking more about *response.* Getting the lips to vibrate with as little pressure and force as possible. That's what the air starts and leadpipe buzzing do.
I hope this, and what other folks are saying, helps you to rediscover the joy of playing.
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u/Snif3425 2d ago
Hi. I appreciate the response. I’m not trying to rework my embouchure though. I’m just trying to figure out why all of a sudden I have a lot of air in my tone, lots of air notes, and can’t move around registers. Since Pedal tones are the only new thing I’ve introduced, my working hypothesis is that they’re the culprit.
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u/Fuddnuddler2400 2d ago
It may well be that you messed around so much with your embouchure to hit the pedal notes that you got it out of whack for everything else. Right now, long tones are probably your friend.
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u/RelativeBuilding3480 2d ago
I studied one summer with James Stamp. Don't relax or open up too much to get the pedal C. If you open up too much, you will have trouble going into and above the staff. Also, don't play too loud. As an experiment, stop doing the pedals for a week and see if the problem goes away.
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u/Snif3425 2d ago
Yes. That’s what I’m going to do. I also do tend to play pretty loud. I’m working on that.
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u/Biffler 2d ago
I've never needed to play a pedal tone on trumpet in any performance setting in 50 years. Don't waste your time.
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u/Snif3425 2d ago
I’m going to take a break but also wondering if this will self correct or what? I have a gig next weekend and I sound like a 7th grader. Lol.
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u/JudsonJay 2d ago
Pedal tones are a short cut to a n efficient embouchure, so, performing them is not really the point. That said, I have performed pedal tones live and on CD.
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u/Snif3425 2d ago
Okay but could they be causing problems? That’s really my question. Trying to figure out why the sudden change in tone quality and such.
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u/eltigredo 2d ago
Interesting logic. That's like an athlete saying, "in all my years as a professional athlete, I've never had to do a sit-up on the field. Don't waste your time."
Pedal tones are not for everyone. But this is not a good reason not to do them. We see the same fuzzy logic with the lip buzz stuff. They say, "you don't buzz when you play, so don't do buzz."
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u/eltigredo 2d ago
There are some trumpet players who should never do pedal tones. Without hearing and seeing you play, I can't know which is true for you. But your post suggests that maybe you are one of those who should not do peal tones.
It's a mistake to assume that all good trumpet players play the same way. You cannot assume that, just because pedal tones work for someone else that they will also work for you.
The way I like to explain the difference is by saying that there are two categories of embouchure. One category is the inflammation based embouchure. The other category is muscular based embouchure. An inflammation embouchure is an embouchure that uses inflamed tissue. It's an embouchure with a lump in the middle of the mouthpiece.
Pedal tones make that lump go away. Without the lump, you just can't play until you build that inflammation back up again.
A muscle based embouchure uses muscles to change the notes. There is no reliance on the lump. It doesn't mean the muscle based embouchures don't get lumps. We all get lumps. But a muscle based trumpet player isn't reliant on the lump.
Pedal tones are great exercises for muscle based embouchure players. In contrast, I have heard stories about trumpet players who basically ended their careers playing pedal tones because they were reliant on that lump. When the lump goes away, it has the potential to set off a pendulum swing that can get so far out of control as to be career ending.
If you are an inflammation based player, then the answer is to stop the pedal tones immediately and build the inflammation back up gradually. Do this with lots of long tones and lip slurs.
It's not wrong or bad to have an inflammation based embouchure. It's simply a different way to play the trumpet. There are pros and cons to every choice we have on the trumpet.
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u/Snif3425 2d ago
Interesting. I don’t know if I’m an inflammation based player or not. I would guess so. However, my current theory is that if I was playing relatively well without pedal tones then it doesn’t hurt to lay off them for a while and see if that’s causing the problem!
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u/eltigredo 1d ago
Let's hope that's all it takes. Let me know if you run into any difficulties along the way.
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u/Snif3425 1d ago
I have no idea what’s going on. Both lips are turning outwards in the mouthpiece almost immediately. I can either play air notes or loud. My tone is fuzzy.
I can never remember this happening, at least for not more than a day, when I used to play. I’m wondering if I’m just really fatigued in some way OR if playing the pedal tones incorrectly (I tried one today and my lips both completely pout out which I think is wrong) has somehow “untrained” some other muscles.
Maybe taking a day or two off? I have a gig this weekend and it’s going to be a disaster. This is bizarre.
Again, I’m on month 3 after 25 years off. But two weeks ago I was sounding and feeling GREAT. Then I wasn’t able to practice much for a few days then had a hard rehearsal then the next day the problems began. Maybe It’s just ongoing fatigue…..anyway, any ideas are most welcome as I’m stumped.
I do have a teacher but he’s the one that turned me on to the pedal tones and I can’t see him again for a couple of weeks.
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u/eltigredo 20h ago
I hesitate to give exact advice without knowing more about you, mostly seeing and hearing you play. But if I'm right about what you're going through, then I would strongly recommend NO days off. If you don't know the Caruso six note study, then I recommend finding a copy online and do that first each day. Read the instructions because it's not good enough to just play the notes.
The most important thing is to not panic. Panicking will make you do things that make it worse. What you need is a stable practice environment, doing the same exercises every day. And at the same time every day if possible.
The reason it takes so long to recover from pedal tones is because we overreact and the swelling gets too big too soon. So we take days off. Which makes the swelling go away. The we panic and do too much again. When I say I have seen this end trumpet players' careers, it's this pendulum swing that does it. At some point, the frustration is just too much and they quit.
I would also emphasize loud playing in your practice time. This will also help stabilize the swelling.
Just keep in mind that I haven't seen or heard you play. I am offering my advice only hypothetically. I might have suggested something entirely different if I was working with you in a lesson.
Trumpet players tend to be terrible at self diagnosis. It's very possible that your problem has nothing to do with swelling.
That said, I don't think there is any harm in doing the Caruso six note study. It may note help, but it won't hurt.
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u/Snif3425 19h ago
Thanks. I guess I’m confused about the loud playing. I pretty much always play loud. I’ve been working on playing softly as that’s a big weakness. That being said, I’m not sure how/why playing loud is helpful right now? If my embouchure and tone are spreading won’t that just make things worse?
I’ll look at Caruso. I’ve been doing a ton of Chilowitz flow studies, but can’t imagine that’s the problem.
Thanks. Trying not to panic. After this gig Saturday I have a month to work all this out.
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u/eltigredo 18h ago
My suggestion to play loud is based on my assumption (and I caution once again that it remains an assumption for as long as we are text based) that you are an inflammation based player and the pedal tones have erased your inflammation. It's possible that trying to play softer AND doing pedal tones may have pushed you over the edge. Playing louder as a fix for your current problem is meant to stabilize the inflammation.
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u/TraditionalAirport85 2d ago edited 2d ago
Hey there! So the point of Pedal Tone exercise is to keep the embouchure face in
place while going down the registers. Many people do it the “wrong” way by just letting all facial muscle tension go and thus achieving the lowest registers. While that may work acoustically, it’s not really desired for playing in general. My advice: start in a comfortable range (G in the staff is always a great start) and work your way down chromatically. Long tones. You want to
Increase volume as you switch notes and then decrescendo. Always two notes, then pause (G - F#; breathe; F# - F; breathe; …).
Again as you go down, you will notice, that the lips will need to loosen, the aperture will need to increase. But the key of the exercise is keeping a steady face mask of muscle tissue - your embouchure. If you do this correctly and slowly, you will feel it in your cheeks. Hope this helps! Feel free to ask questions 👍
EDIT: I forgot. It’s absolutely normal to feel weakness in you lips, the curling out sensation and everything, if you’ve just started playing again. I’m a pro and I get this, to lesser extent obviously, after not playing for 4 weeks. If you had years, decades off, then yes, you will have to invest time to give the muscles room to strengthen. Trumpet is brutal in that regard! Take breaks, and don’t keep playing if you feel that you cannot hold an embouchure anymore. That’s your body telling you that it’s time for a break!