r/wow • u/Rangoras • 12h ago
Loot Another bonus roll rant
The fact that a myth track Guillotine, Gebbo's, and my BiS pants from heroic Ula'tek are all in my vault, but the objectively correct choice for me is to take the bonus roll is god awful design. Blizz was warned during PTR that the bonus rolls from the vault were going to be too strong. This just feels like shadowlands all over again when people were screaming that the original version of the covenant system had glaring issues. Just make it so taking a vault item removes it from the bonus roll pool.
Edit to add context. Frost DK main. Raid in a slightly outside HoF guild so optimal gearing matters to us.
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u/Beegleboogle 12h ago
What class? A lot of classes Gebbo's is the only BiS from explorers, which means taking it is better than taking a bonus roll.
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12h ago
[deleted]
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u/shinorii 12h ago
No it cannot, only the last 2 bosses roll the 9/6. bonus rolling any other mythic boss just puts it at 6/6 mythic track
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u/Ok_Belt2521 12h ago
Brother you are in a prison of your own making.
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u/Future_Dirt_4690 12h ago
Getting too busy to be able to take this shit seriously has made the game so much better lol
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u/mcwowhead 12h ago
I don’t understand. I’m stupid, why dont you take the trinkets?
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u/Dahkeus3 12h ago
Lots of snarky responses, but here’s the actual explanation: If he takes the trinket, then he gets the trinket, but the trinket is still on the loot table for the boss that drops it. So, if he wants to bonus roll in that boss, he’ll potentially just get the trinket again instead of one of the other items of value from that boss.
If he gets the bonus roll instead, he may not get the trinket immediately, but he will at least not get a duplicate item and may get something else of value from the boss while still being able to get the trinket later with the next bonus roll.
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u/Kuroi_Usagi 11h ago
Is there any trade-off to always choosing bonus rolls? I can see that maybe the other gear from the specific pool doesn't have the best secondary stats for a certain spec, and going after that chase trinket could harm you overall.
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u/Dahkeus3 10h ago
I mean, it kinda depends on what your progression is like, whether you find it more important to be better geared for progression now or want to just get to having your best in slot set later and other things.
For people jumping into and progressing heroic raids already, the best option is often just to ignore your vault items and get a bonus roll because it progresses the chance of getting a myth trinket/weapon from a boss without risking getting a duplicate later.
For me, I’m casually making it through normal raid still, but I grabbed a bonus roll two weeks in a row because my vault items were just absolutely terrible. I would have totally grabbed a tier piece or hero BiS trinket if it was available though.
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u/AnotherCator 9h ago
A big jump in ilvl now will help progression now, the extra bonus roll will make you slightly more optimised in the future - but if that ends up being a percent or two better and not for 6 or 7 weeks, you may have been better off with the early ilvl bump for most of progression.
Say you’re planning on using your bonus rolls on heroic ulatek, it depends how early and how often you’ll be killing it. If you’re in one of those guilds that gets AotC then goes on break until next expansion it’s not much help.
Also depends a bit on how much you care about being absolutely BiS.
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u/paletapt 3h ago edited 3h ago
True, but if is a BIS is probably better to take the item, pretty sure it will have more boss to use the bonus roll..
Some boss only have 1 or 2 itens BIS, if you see any of those on the vault take them, much better get the item right away than use bonus loot on that boss
You should check the boss that have 3 or more bis for you, and for those boss use the bonus loot, others get the item
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u/MajesticalOtter 12h ago
Because a guide somewhere told him that taking rerolls is the only right choice and he can't make decisions for himself.
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u/Justhavefaith123 12h ago
Sadly it’s not this simple. The better option is the bonus roll which is why the design is flawed.
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u/ovrclocked 12h ago
Assuming you will kill the thing and then roll it from the rest of the items.
I'm not going to hold my breath for heroic ulatec and pass on good items.
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u/Aestrasz 12h ago
It a case by case, if the only item you want from Lost Explorers is the trinket, meaning you won't bonus roll it ever after taking it from vault, then the right choice is 100% to take the item from the vault.
The only items I want from Coiled Altar are the weapon and trinket. I already got the weapon, if I ever see the trinket, I'm taking that shit.
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u/Justhavefaith123 3h ago
Idk why I got downvoted. Gm of a top 50 world guild but you noobs think you know more. The bonus roll is the better option regardless of what is in your vault. But maybe not for most of you who arnt clearing the content every week.
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u/brok3nh3lix 12h ago
its the better option for LONG RUN optimization of your loot. It STATISTICLY will give the best result over weeks, and MAY save you from having to bonus roll an extra time to get everything you want from the boss.
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u/DeliciousSquats 12h ago
Because he needs 2 or more items from some of these bosses. This means that if he later tries to bonus roll them he will get a duplicate. This is not a problem if he has 2 bonus rolls to spare since you cannot get a duplicate on a bonus roll.
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u/brok3nh3lix 12h ago
he MAY get a duplicate. statisticly, hes better off in the long run, over like 6 weeks of killing coiled alter. but he also may just never see the trinket before he gets the other gear he wants.
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u/Interesting-Use966 9h ago
He “could” get a duplicate. He could also just get the other item he needs and be done. He could also bonus roll something he dosnt need
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u/RedHammer1441 12h ago
Because he wants to use his mystery roll on the Zuljin, it could be anything!? Even Zuljins technique !!!!
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u/Old_but_not_cold 12h ago
I think if he gets it in the raid it go to to 9/9 max while this one would go up to 6/6. pretty much a nothing problem for 99% of players
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u/Zifoxx 12h ago
Wait what? If you get the trinkets from the raid they can be upgraded to 9/9 instead of 6/6 if you get it in vault?
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u/Bassmekanik 12h ago
No
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u/Zifoxx 12h ago
Ok. How's it work then? If you don't mind explaining that is.
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u/Bassmekanik 11h ago
If you bonus roll a myth track item in heroic raid, its 1/6. If you bonus roll a myth item during a myth raid it can go to 9/9. I think that is also only from the last 2 bosses in the raid. So Coiled Altar and Ula`tek.
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u/brok3nh3lix 12h ago
only the gear from the last 2 bosses on mythic get 9/9, regardless of dropped, bonus rolled of vault
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u/Aestrasz 12h ago
Only on Mythic difficulty, and only for the last two bosses. The rest of the raid is 6/6.
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u/Icy_Pizza_7941 12h ago
No. If he rolls heroic it will drop as 1/6. If he rolls mythic it will be max mythic which is 9/9 or 8/8
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u/Faeginn 12h ago
Why is that the objective best choice? Surely you just go BiS
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u/Pickelstif 12h ago edited 12h ago
He's going to most likely use a bonus roll on those bosses later anyway - then most likely get these items as duplicate, so rather just roll on it now and get them removed from the (edit: bonus roll) loot table.
If there's only one item you want from a boss, then it's better to grab it from the vault if it shows up.
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u/Faeginn 12h ago
just sounds like overthinking, my entire thought process for early tier progression would be 'BiS > whatever sims highest.' Like surely doing more damage is way more valuable for early tier progression than optimising every single slot available by week 3. Shit we even have catalyst charges that work on BiS stat gear from M+ so what is bro complaining about.
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u/Pickelstif 11h ago
There is definitely an argument to be made for grabbing an item for an early power spike.
Doesn't make it the mathematically best choice, and some people like to play excel with graphics.
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u/Faeginn 11h ago
My thoughts exactly, I used to be like that when I was doing Mythic prog in Shadowlands but thank fuck I don't play at that level anymore and do what feels like working a second job
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u/Pickelstif 11h ago
I kinda like the bonus roll from the vault for my alts though. Not all of them are capable of running +10's and sure as hell won't be raiding (who got the time to raid with alts).
So I can just stockpile the bonus rolls until I can run a few +10's and drop the rolls at the best dungeon for loot.
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u/Mantias 12h ago
For high end CE guilds, there’s additional incentive to take bonus rolls because the item will drop at 6/6 Myth saving you 80 crests per item in addition to the duplicate protection which adds up over time and potentially allows you to reach fully upgraded myth track in half the time assuming you’re also getting some drops from myth boss kills.It’s an optimization that’s not relevant for most of the playerbase, but OP mentioned that their guild is just shy of HoF so they may be having their raiders min-max as much as possible especially if they’re trying to make HoF.
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u/AnotherCator 12h ago
Don’t you just take Gebbo’s then never need to worry about using any rolls on turtles?
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u/Traditional-Ride-116 12h ago
You’re taking either Gebbo or Secret Technique,the one coming from the boss you’re not bonus rolling. Getting the bonus roll here is an error unless of you’re planning to bonus roll Altar and then Explorer.
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u/ReelyReid 12h ago
Unless you’re going for Hall of Fame, you’re probably good to take the Trinket.
1. You can’t bonus roll every boss you need loot off of, every week.
2. You’ll be getting 2 - 3 bonus rolls per week come 12.1.5
3. Most players would actually benefit more from the power now, than the power later
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u/Dolch0812 12h ago
Oh no, my steak is too juicy! My lobster is too buttery
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u/TaleOfDash 12h ago
"I have to ignore three great items including a BIS for the chance that I could roll to get a BIS item later!"
You realize how insane this sounds, surely?
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u/Waitwhathuh1111 12h ago
That makes no sense if you have multiple items from the boss that drops whatever you'd grab from the vault. Choosing the items from the vault means you might bonus roll them again later. Choosing the roll means you're closer to having all of the items you need from the boss.
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u/CapnDutchie 12h ago
These people are so warped by the youtube guides its insane
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u/TaleOfDash 12h ago
You don't understand it is MATHEMATICALLY the correct option! He might be like .01% behind!
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u/Mantias 11h ago
I mean, you guys are flaming this guy for being “warped by YouTube guides” but he’s in a CE guild that’s sounds like they are trying for HoF, so he’s part of the minuscule portion of the playerbase that this level of min-maxing can actually matter to especially if their raid team is requiring it.
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u/Bassmekanik 11h ago
Thats the entire point though isnt it. Everyone, nearly everyone, is complaining about bonus rolls being best, when in reality its an extremely small pool of the very top players where this actually matters.
To almost everyone else, it makes no real difference, and I'd say most people complaining would probably benefit themselves and their guilds by taking the extra power now.
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u/Mantias 11h ago
I mean yeah I agree that 99% of people complaining are being absurd, it’s just a bit funny that half of these responses are making fun of OP for not being able to think for themselves / blindly following guides when they’re actually part of the playerbase where this sort of min-maxing is relevant. They’re effectively doing the thing they’re flaming OP for by not thinking about why it might actually be a valid complaint in their case.
OP did only included the CE information in a later edit so I guess a lot of initial responses didn’t have that context though.
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u/Bassmekanik 11h ago
Aye. Context helps. :)
And op probably is part of that tiny percentage who, statistically, is better off with a bonus roll.
I still think op’s complaints aren’t objectively founded in reality. Blizz add a facility in game to give a different gearing option, tied to the vault, which has a direct benefit for super high end players, then complains it doesn’t feel satisfying. /shrug
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u/Mantias 11h ago
I guess the issue is that while more efficient, it is less satisfying.
I don’t really know what the fix is, maybe just removing the bonus rolls from vault and adding duplicate protection to vault choices? Personally I only play for M+ 1% so I’m a fan of the current iteration simply because I can just do a few delves on alts each week and bank up rolls for fast myth track acquisition if I need to reroll when the meta settles as I’m a shameless fotm reroller.
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u/Interesting-Use966 9h ago
My BIS is my BIS, but the reroll could be anything. It could even be my BIS.
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u/SeniorEmployment932 12h ago
It's not insane at all. It's the objectively correct choice because taking the trinket has a high chance of completely wasting an entire weekly vault. The system is horrible designed.
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u/Aestrasz 12h ago
It's not necessarily the best choice to pick the bonus roll.
Is the Guillotine the only item you want from Coiled Altar? Did you already get the weapon? Do you want from Lost Explorers anything besides the trinket?
If that's the only item you want from that boss (meaning you won't bonus roll it again after taking it), just take the item.
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u/Mightycactuz91 12h ago
Don't be so salty my man, you dont have to minmax and optimize every aspect of this game.
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u/Affectionate-Law9142 12h ago
Depending on what class you are if you need that trinket on mythic track I would take one of them that’s your bis.
Do not take the bonus roll without seriously digging into the information you need specifically from your class discord.
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u/MissingXpert 12h ago
the last two bosses are so loaded with gear that you'll almost certainly want the roll
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u/Rangoras 12h ago
I already have a hero track guillotine that dropped :(
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u/Affectionate-Law9142 12h ago
If you check the item level of the item, it’ll be mythic track even though you killed the heroic version of the boss. It’s a new thing. Please consult your class discord
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u/Affectionate-Law9142 12h ago
Mythic track is 1000x better than the heroic one you have
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u/Jaba01 12h ago
Incorrect. It's roughly 1% better overall going from HC track trinket to the same trinket on myth track, while other options like the cantrip items from Ulatek easily provide double the value.
As always, sim yo self.
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u/Affectionate-Law9142 12h ago
Dependant on class. We do not know what op mains
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u/Jaba01 12h ago
Frost DK according to comments. And it's a bit more than 1%. 1% to 1.5% depending on spec, yes.
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u/Affectionate-Law9142 12h ago
Why would you go off comments?
Have to make a decision, based on multiple sources not just one thing.Don’t take everything you see and take it for face value, there are plenty of sites and class discords with the information you need.
As you already said, “sim yo self”.
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u/SeniorEmployment932 12h ago
It's crazy how many people here who never do anything above LFR are trying to say OP is wrong lol.
The system is trash. The fact taking a bonus roll is the objective best choice is trash. Weekly vault went from a fun weekly RNG drop to just taking a bonus roll 100% of the time. It's super boring and it's a terrible design.
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u/Wing_Sco 11h ago
I had the Ula'tek hyper bis caster mh with movementspeed on myth track in my first vault, and I still took bonus roll - to roll on Ula'tek.
LMAO
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u/Enajirarek 12h ago
I don't see what the issue is? You have a choice of three BIS items?
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u/zerotwist 12h ago
If he takes one, and starts rolling on coins on Ula'tek he will most likely get whatever he takes from the vault again from the coin meaning useless double loot. If he takes the coin he can at least start locking out loot from the boss.
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u/shinorii 12h ago
If he takes one, where is he getting this bonus roll from? they don't start acruing naturally until week 8. you can't take one AND also bonus roll the boss. so taking the item isnt going to nuke your bonus roll loot pool unless you're chain bonus rolling all vaults until week 8...
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u/zerotwist 12h ago
He's prob planning to, there's. Lot of good loot on the boss.
Also he's an idiot of the doesn't take Gebbos because it's on an entirely different boss
I'm not saying he's right or wrong I'm just explaining the thought of why he would take the coin
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u/Interesting-Use966 9h ago
Why is it most likely. It is just as likely he gets whatever else he needs and then is done with gear on that boss and can use rolls elsewhere.
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u/prentas 12h ago
What are you even on about. What is the need for full BIS week two? You have how long into a season, and the gear becomes obsolete in the next. Min-maxing is something that’s embedded in your head that determines if you’re a good player and a bad player. Yes, obviously, some stats are better than others. But the idea that you have decision paralysis just because something said rerolling is a better idea is crazy. When had gambling ever paid off? I play Magic and the same rule applies here. If a specific item is part of your BIS list and you have access to the maximum ILVL track of that item, why the hell would you risk bonus rolling for a CHANCE to get something better? So you take the bonus roll and the item you get isn’t what you were rolling for. Are you gonna make another thread then? It’s a toxic cycle for you and you should break it to enjoy the game. It’s not all about numbers.
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u/tregnoc 12h ago
It’s not a chance at getting something better. It’s deterministic. Get over yourself it’s not about being 100% optimal it’s about making a system that is flawed better. Nobody wants to wait all week to raid and bonus roll on a boss just to get a duplicate item they already have from vault.
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u/Beginning_Green_740 12h ago
Just take one of the items, what's the problem?
Do people realize that in couple weeks there will be tons of these bonus rolls available just like in previous season, and current 1-roll-limitation is only for the start of the season?
And, also that there will be voidcores coming which will be upgrading items to +10 ilvls just like in season 1?
You are only week-2 into 6-month-long season and no any catch-ups were added yet. I can understand the struggle of choice for maybe someone who plays in RWF guild and decisions like this can make it or break it - but for regular players, what are you even talking about lol?
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u/GapOk8380 12h ago
Bro I don't even play that hardcore, and I'm so tired of seeing this....
Blizzard, just remove bonus rolls altogether at this point. Why do bonus rolls need to have duplicate protection? It's a God damn BONUS ROLL. Take a BIS, bonus roll when you kill a boss. It's a BONUS not a guarantee. It's free God damn loot.
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u/Electronic_Image_488 12h ago
Cool story bro. Go complain on Blizz forums. Submit tickets. Complain to someone else.
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u/Expensive_Presence_4 12h ago
Bro just get the trinket that’s bis for you. Who gives a fuck if you are “forced” to take bonus roll. Just take what you want
I took hero track daggers over a bonus roll cuz I ran 10 Altar of fangs (maybe more) with no luck of the agi dagger and I’m finally free of the grind. Just so what makes you happy man. I would’ve taken guillotines over bonus roll any day. I’ll try my luck with the main hand axe in the future with bonus rolls.
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u/Mantias 11h ago
Genuine question, wouldn’t you just craft Myth track daggers?
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u/Expensive_Presence_4 11h ago
Maybe next week I can. I have one crafted dagger and my other crafted item is wrist
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u/Mantias 11h ago edited 11h ago
I feel like a lot of responses here are glossing over the “CE guild slightly outside HoF” portion of the post. OP isn’t a 3k M+ / AOTC player worrying about min-maxing for content where it absolutely does not matter, and optimal loot choices are likely a requirement for the entire team if they’re aiming to improve or push for HoF. Bonus rolls don’t just provide duplicate protection but also save you 80 Myth crests per item when used on Myth kills which makes them the optimal choice unless you only need a single item from a particular boss / it’s the last remaining item from that boss that you need and even in those cases you may still be better off taking a roll if there are more significant upgrades available from other bosses that you’re likely to kill.
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u/RateBackground8436 12h ago
I find it extremely hard to believe that none of that is a upgrade.
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u/TerribleJett 12h ago
A Guide / Youtuber told him that bonus rolls ARE the only option and he isn't allowed to deviate from said path or else......
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u/Nate-Essex 11h ago
I got a mythic Guillotine, mythic head piece with bis stars (non tier), and a mythic Gebbos in my first vault.
I had to take my hero tier head piece so I could get 4 set...
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u/Mantias 11h ago
How many tier pieces did you already have? You could have up to three catalyst charges this week so you only needed 1 piece from any vault or drop previously.
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u/Nate-Essex 10h ago
It made my 4 set.
I'm also not a regular raider, so bonus rolling Altar weekly was not guaranteed. There would have also been a chance I bonus rolled Altar and got another guillotine wasting the roll.
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u/Pugnatwo 12h ago
Unless you killing heroic bosses every single week, and are a ce hall.of fame guild progging on ulatek, choosing bonus rolls is NOT objectively always correct.
Let's look at tidecaller. Bis trinket, 2 leather pieces with vers as a dev dh. If I just went bonus roll no matter what and passed on that mythic trinket in my vault, I could waste 2 rolls just to get the 1 item I want. People legit need to use their brains and think instead of just reading a guide.
The guides are for min maxing mythic gear from zuljan and ulatek. Outside of that you need to think about your decisions.
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u/No-Knee5013 2h ago
That is a selfmade Problem here, this is 3 different Bosses, grab bis and roll on another next week, will take weeks Till you get enough Rolls to Roll all bosses. Also Talk about who Rolls which boss so you potentially get loot from the one you grabbed loot of vault.
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