The Problem with the Problem of Evil

[u/ShokWayve]

So, I have heard it said that the most cogent, visceral and powerful popular objection to theism is the problem of evil. I say “popular” because apparently in scholarly atheism it is apparently nowhere near as deployed as it is popularly. Regardless, the problem of evil is supposed to be a major conundrum popularly for Christian theism. However, I must confess, I fail to see how the problem of evil is an issue at all much less a particularly cogent one for Christian theism.

So, below I outline my thoughts. I welcome, invite and even seek your critique and criticism of my argument below. Attack it without mercy. I am from an academic background so you won’t hurt my feelings :-). Also, for the atheists here, I would also love your thoughts and criticisms as well.

The theme of my line of thinking is that the problem of evil assumes an atheist’s view of reality then proceeds based on those assumptions.

Bear in mind, this argument doesn’t claim to demonstrate the existence of God, rather it assesses the problem of evil within a Christian classical theism framework. Also, this originally started as a response elsewhere to the problem of evil in the form of animal suffering.

So let’s look at some key points.

Point 1: The Bible says that all things are from God, for God, to God and through God. Not a few things, but all things. This includes rocks, stones, atoms, quarks, galaxies, animals, people, anything that exists that is not God. Already with that point alone the problem of evil begins to evaporate. Life is not some random burp of circumstances. All of reality is from God and to God. Immediately that establishes the purpose, reason and goal of existence. It is good for God to move reality towards its purpose.

For sentient beings, of what animals are, then the purpose includes ultimate being with God which is ultimately the joy, peace, truth, goodness, love, etc that we seek.

Point 2: Death is an issue for us not God. All are alive to God and God can restore any life at any moment. So nothing is lost to God. God can restore all. From God’s perspective death is to us like someone going from one room to another. The problem of evil objector often assumes death is some huge deal for God and presents some type of serious challenge. If John can’t wait to play video games when he gets home and then finally goes into the basement man cave to play video games, should we see John not being in the living room upstairs as some great evil and terrible dilemma? The problem of evil objector then responds yes but that person is not dead. For God, all alive to God and all are within God’s power to restore and God promises to do so. What’s the problem? If that person or animal experiences next tGod which is ultimately all they actually seek and want and they are eternally in bliss what is the issue exactly? I just don’t see the problem. If someone buys an RV to take long trips, is it evil for them to then use the RV to take long trips? Certainly it is intuitive when a being’s good purpose is being fulfilled that is a good thing and not problematic.

Point 3: The suffering is not pointless but serves a specific purpose even when it seems gratuitous. First, to even see it as gratuitous is to often assume the atheistic world view that physical reality is a thing unto itself. Second, we know from scripture that God loves us and God is love. If you have kids, do you ever subject them to anything without a purpose? Do you make your kids suffer gratuitously? No. So why would God? The issue is that we don’t know the purpose of the suffering. Yet we know God only does good things so ultimately it is for our good. So even if we don’t know why there is suffering and pain that seems gratuitous, within the context of points 1 to 3, we have good reason to conclude it must be good and it is our task to work to figure it out, and trust God in the process. This is no different than trusting humans in situations wherein that human has vastly more knowledge than us and we don’t understand what they are directing us to do.

In his book He Who Is, H L Mackey makes the point we don’t often see folks leave the gym after a tough workout and say they are now atheist because of how hard and painful was the workout. In fact, when working out we often welcome pain and difficulty. Why? Because we know the purpose of the pain and we know it actually signals growth is imminent (and occurring). Given that God is love, we know therefore, that any instance of suffering no matter how seemingly ridiculously gratuitous is ultimately for the good of the being undergoing it whether in this life or beyond.

Point 4: God’s decision considerations extends beyond this life since all are always alive to him or available to him. While we view a painful prolonged death as the end, for God that is a phase or period in that beings existence - no different than to us when someone undergoing some temporary pain or suffering to improve themselves. The problem of evil often assumes this life is all there is. However that is false. So of course God makes decisions that are far beyond our time horizons. When I was a kid, my thoughts were about playing during the day. I found it odd and bizarre that adults thought about anything beyond having fun that day. As an adult, now I think about both the day and long term considerations and act with those in mind. Ergo, my actions are vastly different than they were when I was a kid. Now consider points 1 to 4 and it’s easy to see how God could approach managing the existence of beings in a way radically different than we can even conceive. Paul said eyes have not seen nor ears have heard. So we fundamentally have no real idea what God is preparing beings for. One day we will.

It is based on these points that I just don’t see why the problem of evil is so convincing for so many people.

Now of course this response doesn’t establish the existence of God nor is it meant to. It does however establish that the problem of evil is not a problem for Christianity.

[u/nolman]

Let's start here.

1. The whole question is when god created this reality, why does he have to move it and why through massive amounts of horrible suffering?

What does "good" even mean when you create a world like this?

Most Christians just redefine good as anything god does by definition.

But that is completely removed from anything we are usually talking about when we use the word good.

[u/ShokWayve → u/nolman]

God is the good and is goodness itself. Good is whatever coheres with God’s nature.

I am not sure what you mean by “move it” regarding reality?

I won’t pretend to know why there is such horrible suffering nor will I pretend to even agree with it. In fact I don’t like it and which it was different. I am fundamentally opposed to death and disease and injustice and oppression and in fact disagree with those. It’s very painful and sad to see those things.

However and again, the suffering seems excessive like perhaps suffering at the gym seems excessive to someone who doesn’t exercise, or how Navy seal training may seem excessive in suffering to most. Yet we know specifically what the suffering is for so we don’t find it cruel and unusual. In the same way, the suffering we see is not the end and for that which we don’t know why, we do know ultimately it servers a purpose and the end is eternal and infinite fulfillment and joy in God - which is our origin and purpose.

So if the horrible suffering is for a specific purpose that is ultimately for that person’s benefit, and that person in the end is with God fulfilling their purpose of existence and is in joy, what is the issue? It seems the main issue is we don’t know why the suffering. True and fair enough. Yet if we know God, then we know there is a purpose and reason behind it, and all ends well, so ultimately there is no issue.

This is not exotic thinking either. When I was a child I it was the same scenario with needles that I thought constituted excessive suffering. As an adult, there are several things I have no idea why they are the way they are, yet I trust the relevant professionals (eg medical, pilots, engineers, etc).

[u/Difficult_Risk_6271 → u/nolman]

If you can coherently explain what “you are usually talking about when you use the word good” actually means, I will give some consideration. So what does “good” mean?

Also magnitude of suffering is not a philosophical standard.

[u/PeacefulBro]

I have faith in Christ that it's just as He said since God created all things. That means He knows how all things work.

[u/AnotherFootForward]

I think the issues here is primarily the assumption that god is good and therefore all suffering must be for "our good".

A simple example. A child, dying of cholera. What good could that have?

[u/ShokWayve → u/AnotherFootForward]

This is a very good question. Recall that we are addressing the problem from within the classical Christian theistic framework. Within that framework God is goodness itself, and God is love.

Separate arguments can be used to establish that God is the good and that God is love.

As for the child dying from cholera, again, they are alive to God and in bliss experiencing what they desire and want. So, what is the issue? Death is not the end. While we can’t say we know for sure what good that child dying from cholera brings, many potential things come to mind: teaching the child to not fear death, teaching humans to cherish life and not take it for granted, teaching humans to work hard to care for each other, teaching humans that material wealth is not the measure of life, teaching humans to value life, teaching humans to find a cure for diseases, teaching humans to value life and the opportunity for existence, teaching humans to trust God and his promises, perhaps preparing the child for some experience in the next life, etc. I can’t say we know for sure. We should work to figure out why however at this point I don’t know.

Yet and again, if the child is not dead but is now fulfilled in God and eternal bliss, what exactly is the issue? Is it wrong for the child to be experiencing God and the joy they seek and ultimate peace and purpose for which they were made?

[u/AnotherFootForward → u/ShokWayve]

So the issue is not actually the end point or the starting point, but the process.

What happens when we describe it this way is that it seems to justify suffering rather than explain it. Suddenly we slip into a position where prayer is pointless, or at least struggling against suffering becomes pointless because "it is God's will / grand plan / purpose" or because God doesn't care about how painful the process is as long as He gets what He wants.

If it's truly all rainbows and roses even in suffering then we risk wash our hands of helping others (what if we interfere with God's intention?).

It also runs against God's own attitude towards suffering. Jesus did not look at the man with dropsy or the woman with the flow of blood or the blind or paralytics and say "yes, you are learning God's lesson". He "had compassion on them" and "burned with anger" when the Pharisees hid behind Sabbath laws to say people ought not be healed on Sabbath.

The only occasions I recall where he agreed with this view was foreshadowing judgement, staying away until Lazarus died and addressing why the man was born blind.

So I think it is true God may have a greater purpose in allowing suffering, but it's also clear that God views suffering as fundamentally undesirable.

[u/ShokWayve → u/AnotherFootForward]

Good points. We must always act to alleviate or eliminate pain and suffering to the maximum extent we can. In another response I stated that such actions were also a likely purpose and intention of suffering.

I am also not advocating in my answer that we do nothing to help. Jesus is indeed crystal clear that it is our duty to help.

[u/AnotherFootForward → u/ShokWayve]

Before you field this in a live conversation, I strongly urge you to carefully consider how you would answer this question: "is suffering good or bad?"

Because in the current framing it feels like your thinking leans towards suffering is good, intended and planned by God.

Whereas I think the biblical picture is closer to: suffering as we know it is a bug to be squashed, and God currently allows it and makes use of it even as He is squashing it.

This matters because if suffering is good and planned by God, then God is deliberately giving people debilitating diseases. Whereas if it's bad but God allows it and make use of it, he's kind of building in a workaround while the fix is on the way.

Either way suffering still exists but the framing changes how we see God. The actual truth may be somewhere in between, I don't know.

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