"Shortugai (Shortughai), in Darqad District of northern Afghanistan, was a trading colony of the Indus Valley Civilisation (or Harappan Civilisation) established around 2000 BC on the Oxus river (Amu Darya) near the lapis lazuli mines, which serves as the physical, international border line between Afghanistan and Tajikistan"

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortugai

afaik, Tamil and the majority of Dravidian languages, except malayalam, add honorifics for respect. For example, "appa vanthaanga", "amma ponaanga", etc. In kanyakumari tamil, at least afaik, this respect is dropped when referring to a more respected person in third person. For example, "paati dosa chuttaanga" (Grandma made dosa) becomes "paati dosa chuttu(thu)" and "appa paisa thanthaanga" becomes "appa paisa thanthu" and so on. Is this unique to kanyakumari tamil or is it just the effect of malayalam being next door? how is it like in other dialects of tamil?

Bhattiprolu script and Pallava script provided origin for lot of scripts .

Original video by KTDF Live show On youtube.

The historical development of Tamil verbal morphology is outstandingly complex as it reflects several stages of development spanning several centuries (ca. 300 BCE-600 CE). Previous work on early Tamil, within the framework of historical linguistics, has made it clear that in the initial stage: 1) the bare stems without many morphological elements were used in different syntactic functions; 2) there was no categorial distinction between noun and verb; 3) the same inflexional material was used to encode various morphosyntactic functions; 4) the Tamil Finite Verb structure with fully developed pronominal suffixes is a later development; etc. (Bloch 1946, Caldwell 1856, Meenakshisundaran 1965, Rajam 1992, Renganathan 2013, Vinson 1878). The ceyyum pattern as finite verb (see Tolkāppiyam, Naṉṉūḷ, etc. and the commentators on these texts) is one such earlier form that stands as evidence for the complex relation between morphology and syntax. In this paper, I try to examine the verbal morphology from hero-stone inscriptions dating from 500-650 CE. In this corpus, 27 stems occur in different morphological configurations, fulfilling different syntactic or grammatical functions. These forms consist of bare stems, personal (finite) forms and non-finite forms, which function as predicates, determinants, adverbial participles, participial nouns, etc. I try to analyse this type of flexible categorial features in terms of morphological and lexical polyfunctionality (Pilot-Raichoor 2012). The data from hero-stone inscriptions contain several layers of morphological lexical developments that stretch from the earliest till the modern periods and add more information on the historical development of Tamil and Dravidian verb morphology.

Appasamy Murugaiyan. Verbal Morphology and Polyfunctionality in Old Tamil: Evidence from Hero-stone Inscriptions (ca. 500-650 CE). Muthamizh Arignar Kalaignar Centenary international seminar on Ancient Tamil Nadu, Department of Archaeology, Government of Tamilnadu, Dec 2023, Chennai (Tamilnadu), India. pp.95-107. ⟨hal-04627803⟩

Describing and understanding an ancient language like Inscriptional Tamil is an enormous challenge in many ways. The most trivial among the difficulties is the relation between the text (form) and meaning. Since the 19th century, there has been a regular paradigm shift in linguistic theory and in the study of languages (from philology to structuralism, generative, functional, etc.). This paradigm shift has provided us with a handful of analytical tools, enabling us to view the discourse (written and spoken) from a new perspective; it has also shown us that texts are more than strings of sentences. These developments, among other things, have put greater emphasis on the social, cognitive, communicative and cultural aspects of language. In this paper, we try to examine the interaction between text architecture, information structure and linguistic devices used. We formulate some hypotheses on the relationship between pragmatics, semantic content (meaning) and structure (syntax), which is crucial in interpreting and extracting information from epigraphic texts. The analysis presented here is based exclusively on a corpus of naṭukal “Hero stone” inscriptions dating between 400 and 650 CE.

The author proposes a study on the inscription  Pulimāṉkōmpai-3 in light of historical linguistics and how it sheds light on the reconstruction of Proto-Dravidian.

[I don't know why my posts have been deleted, since my posts are from reliable databases and academic/scholarly sources.]

What are some of the most interesting/unique/rare Indus Valley artifacts you know of? Things you believe are 'hidden gems'?

Already there are tons of post about cultural similarity of Kongu belt & old Mysuru region.

I am adding this one too

Tamil:- Instead of using the singular vā (come) or pō (go), polite slang Tamil uses the plural suffix -ṅga or full literary endings: vāṅga, pōṅga (Please come / Please go).

Kongu dialect is widely perceived by other tamil speakers as naturally gentle, soft-toned, and exceptionally polite. It softens commands and incorporates indirect phrasing..

Equivalent of that is Mysore & Mandya kannada which is widely regarded as the most sweet-sounding, standard, and polite form of the language.

It also relies heavily on honorific pronouns. For example, addressing someone formally requires shifting from the singular neenu (you) to the plural niivu (you), and appending respectful verb endings like -ri (e.g., banni instead of baa for "come").

From where these habits would have originated??

A few folks from Madras Presidency had moved to erstwhile East Pakistan before the Partition. A few of them settled in Dhaka whom still speak Telugu, although, there is another, distinct, community who are known as "Madrasi" or "Madraji". All speakers seem to employ "Naidu" surname. There around 2,000 families in Bangladesh, mostly (if not all) whom are in Moulvibazar, Sylhet (close to the border with Barak Valley, Northeast India) as it seems to me. Language is oral only, although the educated folks employ Bengali script for it. While they do seem to call their language as "Telugu", it is described as a creole of Tamil and Telugu, although as a native Tamil speaker i struggle to find any resemblence of Tamil. I shall post my observations here, as it seems no one knows much about this language and hence no notings on how it differs from Standard Telugu.

English:I forgot how long I haven't been travelling.

Madraji:

Normal transliteration:
nanu cēna roili beṭṭi teraganaki yāl̄edu adi nāno maric pan

IPA:
/nanu t͡ʃəːna ɾɔi̯li beʈːi t̪eɾagʌnaki i̯alːedu adi nano maɾit͡ʃ pən/

Telugu script:
నను చేనా రొయిలి బెట్టి తెరగనకి యాల్లేడు అది నానో మరిచ్ పన్

Standard Telugu:

Normal transliteration:
nēnu cālā rōjulu veḷḷi tiragaḍāniki kālēdu, adi nāku maricipōyindi

IPA:
/neːnu t͡ʃaːla roːd͡ʒulu veɭːi t̪iraɡaɖaːniki kaːleːdu adi naːku maɾit͡ʃipoːjindi/

Telugu script:
నేను చాలా రోజులు వెళ్లి తిరగడానికి కాలేదు, అది నాకు మరిచిపోయింది.

Here, the pronoun nēnu appears as nanu (Same as Kannada!), with /eː/ becoming /a/. This also occurs in /mamʊ/ [mamu if thee does not know IPA] (corresponds to Standard mēmu meaning "we"). Cālā “much” appears as cəːna, showing a different vowel quality and possibly /l/ > /n/. Rōjulu "days" appears as ɾɔi̯li, with a diphthongal vowel and changes to the medial consonant and final vowel. Particularly notable is veḷḷi "going/having gone", which appears as beʈːi, involving /v/ > /b/ and /ɭː/ > /ʈː/. The Standard Telugu tiragaḍāniki corresponds to t̪eɾagʌnaki, showing both phonological changes and a differently shaped stem, although the final -naki/-niki suggests related grammatical morphology. The form i̯alːedu appears to contain a counterpart of Standard Telugu lēdu "is not", but its exact structure is uncertain. In contrast, adi "that/it" is essentially identical in both varieties. The final maɾit͡ʃ pən is broadly comparable to maricipōyindi "was forgotten", but appears to use a substantially different verbal construction.

English: How many of you do not agree to go to that place?
Madraji:

IPA:
/mɪlu ɔu̯lu lɔʷakʌɾ kælːaki ɾad͡ʒi ledu/

Normal transliteration:
milu aulu lōwakar keḷḷaki rāji lēdu

Telugu script:
మిలు ఔలు లోవకర్ కెళ్ళకి రాజి లేదు

Standard Telugu:

IPA:
/miːloː ent̪amand̪i aː prad̪eːɕaːnɪki veɭːaɖaːnɪki raːd͡ʒiːɡaː leːɾu/

Normal transliteration:
mīlō entamandi ā pradēśāniki veḷḷaḍāniki rājīgā lēru?

Telugu script:
మీ లో ఎంతమంది ఆ ప్రదేశానికి వెళ్లడానికి రాజీగా లేరు?

/mɪlu/ corresponds broadly to mīlō, with /iː/ shortened and the final vowel different. /ɔu̯lu/ does not transparently correspond to Standard entamandi, suggesting either a different lexical item or a heavily reduced construction rather than ordinary sound change. Likewise, /lɔʷakʌɾ/ is not a straightforward phonological equivalent of ā pradēśāniki and contains the unusual labialized /lʷ/. /kælːaki/ is more suggestive of a counterpart to veḷḷaḍāniki, with a major change in the stem and the conspicuous [æ] vowel, although the shared -ki points to related grammatical function. The final /ɾad͡ʒi ledu/ is the most readily recognizable part: rāji lēdu "there is no agreement," though Standard Telugu in this exact sentence would more naturally have rājīgā lēru.

English: Will you take parboiled rice or sunned rice?

Madraji:

Normal transliteration:
uppir bim tiskōtayo nā pecchi bimu(?)

IPA:
/upːɪɾ bim tiskɔt̪aʲo na pet͡ʃːɪ bimʊ/

Telugu script:
ఉప్పిర్ బిమ్ తిస్కోటయో నా పెచ్చి బిము?(?)

Standard Telugu:

Normal transliteration:
uppuḍu biyyaṁ tīsukuṇṭāvō lēka eṇḍabeṭṭina biyyaṁō?

IPA:
/upːuɖu bijːã t̪iːsukuɳʈaːvoː leːka eɳɖabeʈːina bijːamoː/

Telugu script:
ఉప్పుడు బియ్యం తీసుకుంటావో లేక ఎండబెట్టిన బియ్యమో?

/upːɪɾ/ is apparently related to the word for parboiled rice, although it does not correspond straightforwardly to Standard uppuḍu. The borrowed noun /bim/ is particularly notable: the expected Standard Telugu word is biyyaṁ "rice," so the Madraji form has a markedly different shape, suggesting lexical replacement or strong sound change rather than ordinary pronunciation variation. /tiskɔt̪aʲo/ is recognizably close to Standard tīsukuṇṭāvō "will you take," retaining the tisk- / tīsuk- verbal element and the interrogative -ō, but with substantial reduction of the middle morphology and a different vowel/consonant pattern. The second option, /na pet͡ʃːɪ bimʊ/, appears to correspond to "or sunned rice," but its exact segmentation is uncertain; /na/ may be an alternative-marker corresponding functionally to Standard lēka, while /pet͡ʃːɪ/ could encode the preparation/process.

English: At that moment you had a fever and stomach ache, that is why you couldn't go

Madraji:

IPA:
/ɔpːunːiku oʷaʂ͡ʈmu koɾupnopːu unɖidi əndɛkɛ əlːepɔnao̯/

Normal transliteration:
oppunnikū owaṣṭmu korupnoppu uṇḍidi endeke allepōnāo̯

Telugu script:
ఒప్పున్నికు ఓవష్ట్ము కొరుప్నొప్పు ఉండిది ఎందెకె అల్లెపోనాఓ(?)

Standard Telugu:

IPA:
/aː samajaːniki niːku d͡ʒʋaɾam kaɖupunopːi uɳɖeːd̪i and̪ukeː veɭːaleːkapoːjaːʋu/

Normal transliteration:
ā samayaniki nīku jvaraṁ, kaḍupunoppi uṇḍēdi, andukē veḷḷalēkapōyāvu.

Telugu script:
ఆ సమయంలో నీకు జ్వరం, కడుపునొప్పి ఉండేది, అందుకే వెళ్లలేకపోయావు.

/ɔpːunːiku/ appears to correspond to Standard Telugu ā samayaniki "at that time" although the correspondence is not transparently phonological and may involve a different lexical expression. /oʷaʂ͡ʈmu/ is plausibly the equivalent of jvaraṁ "fever" but the form is substantially different, including the unusual rounded /oʷ/ and the affricate-like /ʂ͡ʈ/ sequence. The expression /koɾupnopːu/ is much more recognizably related to kaḍupunoppi "stomach ache": both contain a -noppi element, but Madraji has major changes in the initial portion and consonant pattern. /unɖidi/ corresponds closely in function to uṇḍēdi "was/would be" preserving the characteristic Telugu uṇḍ- "be/remain" verb while changing the vowel and ending. The causal expression /əndɛkɛ/ is especially suggestive of Standard andukē "that is why" with the same broad andu-/ande- + kē structure but a very different phonetic realization. Finally, /əlːepɔnao̯/ appears to correspond to veḷḷalēkapōyāvu "you could not go," but is heavily reduced and remodeled; notably, the Madraji form still seems to contain material corresponding to lēka-pō-, suggesting that the Telugu inability + motion verb construction may be retained despite substantial phonological reduction.

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About numerals, ditīyo, tritīyo, cōturtho, these forms are very different from ordinary colloquial Standard Telugu numerals, which use the Dravidian ordinal series reṇḍava/reṇḍō, mūḍava/mūḍō, and nālugava/nālugō. Madraji instead has forms such as /ditiːjɔ/ and /tɾitiːjɔ/, which are strikingly close to the Sanskritic ordinal forms dvitīya "second" and tṛtīya "third" but with a highly simplified phonetic shape and final -yō/-jɔ. The fourth, /t͡ʃʰoturt̪ʰo/, similarly corresponds to Sanskrit caturtha and is much closer to a Sanskrit-derived ordinal than to Standard Telugu nālugō. Thus, this may not simply be a case of Madraji preserving an old Telugu form: it appears to have reorganized the ordinal system around Sanskrit-derived forms.

There is also a very noticeable Eastern Indo-Aryan contact resemblance here. Bengali দ্বিতীয় is dvitīẏo and তৃতীয় is tṛtīẏo, so the Madraji /ditiːjɔ/ and /tɾitiːjɔ/ have essentially the same overall phonological shape: d/t + itī + yō and tritī + yō. The Bengali endings are particularly close to Madraji -jɔ/-yō. The fourth, Bengali চতুর্থ côturtho, is also strikingly similar in overall shape to Madraji /t͡ʃʰoturt̪ʰo/. Sylheti, being another Eastern Indo-Aryan language, also has closely related Sanskrit-derived ordinal forms. So, unlike the earlier examples where Bengali influence was not especially obvious, this particular set shows a quite conspicuous parallel with Bengali/Sylheti.

Perhaps all of these forms ultimately go back to Sanskrit dvitīya, tṛtīya, caturtha, and Sanskrit-derived ordinals could have entered Madraji independently through Telugu's own extensive Sanskrit vocabulary. But the phonetic shapes /ditiːjɔ/, /tɾitiːjɔ/, /t͡ʃʰoturt̪ʰo/ happen to line up unusually well with the Eastern Indo-Aryan forms, so this is something worth checking across the rest of the Madraji corpus.

So I was taught as a Bengali speaker that the Bengali word ফড়িং (phaRiM, grasshopper) comes from Sanskrit पतङ्ग (pataNga, insect), which is traditionally derived from पतम् (patam, to fly) +‎ ग (ga, to go). However, this derivation is suspicious, as the p does not magically aspirate to ph, or t does not get retroflexed to R. Additionally, I come across variant forms in Sanskrit like पत्तङ्ग (pattaNga), पत्तिङ्ग (pattiNga), फत्तिङ्ग (phattiNga), फट्टिङ्ग (phaTTiNga), फटिङ्ग (phaTiNga) and फडिङ्गा (phaDiNgA), which is suspicious if the word is derived natively. So I wonder if it's actually a non-Aryan loanword, especially Dravidian.

To paraphrase the gist of my question in a single sentence, "ciragu" became "siragu" and eventually "Iragu". Could "ciragu" have directly become "Iragu"without becoming "siragu"?

A lot of Malayalam core vocabulary has been replaced by Sanskrit. Off the top of my head as an illiterate L1 speaker I can think of: thing (sadanam), but (pakshe), to like (ishtham akuka), ask (chodikuka), understand (manasilakuka), acchan (father), vattam (time (as in instances)), divasam (day), ratri (night), pakshi (bird), pashu (cow), reason (kaaryam), sthalam (place), vedana(ikuka) ((to) hurt), aadyam (first), most basic words for emotion eg. deshyam (anger), vijarikyuka/alojikyuka/chinthikyuka (to think) (all sanskrit), moshtikyuka (to steal) note colloquial (perhaps motivated by Dravidian aversion to fricative clusters) variant mottikyuka.

It's a comparable amount to the level of Latin words in basic English vocabulary or even a little more. However, there were no Indo-Aryan speaking incursions into Kerala. Kerala has not been ruled by any Indo-Aryan speaking dynasty for any extended period of time.

There is also reason to believe that Malayalam speakers were unable to produce fricatives well into the 17th and 18th century: Fricatives in Portuguese and English loanwords were approximated with affricates like in Old and Middle Tamil. How could they have learned to pronounce these words with complex consonant clusters and fricatives? I have inquired my grandparents (born c. 1945) about whether older commonfolk employed these words and they claim that such words have always been readily incorporated into colloquial speech without any difficulty in pronunciation. My grandmother with a college degree had no idea that 90% of these words were even of Sanskrit origin. What is striking is that actual native Malayalam is almost entirely devoid of fricatives and most consonant clusters (might be entirely so under some interpretations). Almost every single word with a fricative is not native, and yet educated native speakers are not able to easily perceive this.

It is almost as if such words were forcibly introduced into the colloquial language sometime in the 1600-1800s.

in Arrambakkam, people speak a mix of Tamil and telugu. in the video, you can see a clear vocabulary Mix of tamil, and also telugu. even kids learn telugu and tamil here.
credits to @nellore_adda_official on instagram for the video

Wilden Eva. Depictions of language and languages in early Tamil literature – How Tamil became cool and straight. In: Histoire Épistémologie Langage, tome 31, fascicule 2, 2009. La nomination des langues dans l'histoire. pp. 117-141.

DOI : https://doi.org/10.3406/hel.2009.3122

www.persee.fr/doc/hel_0750-8069_2009_num_31_2_3122

This paper aims at following up the development of the basic designation of the language called Tamil (tamiḻ) and its perception of otherness, i. e. other languages, especially the «  Northern language  » (vaṭa-moḻi & al.), in the early, pre-theoretical and non-theoretical, literature of the first millennium of the common era. The variety of literary genres and texts serving quite different purposes preserves a multiplicity of voices which have not survived into the relatively narrow circles interested in grammatical discourse. Already in the oldest literary corpus, that of the Caṅkam, the word tamiḻ is occasionally used for territory, people and language, but also for a learned literary tradition. A marked increase can be observed from the 7th century onwards, where we find both in courtly and even more so in devotional texts the onset of a conscious promotion of Tamil, often in implicit contrast to Sanskrit. The epicentre of the movement seems to be located in the Shaiva tradition.

Baums Stefan, Griffiths Arlo, Strauch Ingo, Tournier Vincent. Early Inscriptions of Āndhradeśa: Results of fieldwork in January and February 2016. In: Bulletin de l'Ecole française d'Extrême-Orient. Tome 102, 2016. pp. 355-398.

DOI : https://doi.org/10.3406/befeo.2016.6238

www.persee.fr/doc/befeo_0336-1519_2016_num_102_1_6238

Patel Deven M. Appropriations and Innovations in Metalinguistic Terminology in an Influential Telugu Grammar Composed in Sanskrit. In: Histoire Épistémologie Langage, tome 39, fascicule 2, 2017. La grammaire sanskrite étendue. pp. 45-63.

DOI : 10.1051/hel/2017390203

www.persee.fr/doc/hel_0750-8069_2017_num_39_2_3612

The various traditions of Sanskrit grammar have served as models, or as sources for metalinguistic description, for many other grammars composed to describe South Asian classical or local literary languages. This article investigates the contents of the first chapter (on metalinguistic terms) of a remarkable and influential medieval grammar of the major Dravidian language Telugu, or Āndhrabhās. ā, known as the Āndhras ´ abdacintāman. i. This grammar was composed with the same technical precision and a style similar to that of Pān. ini’s As. ṭādhyāyı ¯ . Hence, the purpose of this article : to study the processes of adaptation of metalanguage and of the Sanskrit metalinguistic technologies to describe Telugu in Sanskrit, a language that has both profound lexical affinities and striking phonological and morphological divergences from Telugu.

Dequirez Gaëlle. Tamouls sri lankais : le Little Jaffna de La Chapelle. In: Hommes et Migrations, n°1268-1269, Juillet-octobre 2007. Diasporas indiennes dans la ville. pp. 82-91.

DOI : https://doi.org/10.3406/homig.2007.4631

www.persee.fr/doc/homig_1142-852x_2007_num_1268_1_4631

La Chapelle : espace géographique situé dans le 10e arrondissement de Paris, centre des commerces et de la vie associative, religieuse, éducative et culturelle tamoule sri lankaise en France, mais aussi réseau, maillon d'une vaste toile. Plongée dans le quartier.

Schmid Charlotte. Les «  rois anciens  » du pays tamoul. In: Bulletin de l'Ecole française d'Extrême-Orient. Tome 106, 2020. pp. 109-156.

DOI : https://doi.org/10.3406/befeo.2020.6330

www.persee.fr/doc/befeo_0336-1519_2020_num_106_1_6330

Based on the particular case of the historiography of the Cōḻa dynasty in South India, this article ambitions to demonstrate how attention paid to texts sometimes leads to neglecting the context of their production and other types of sources that would however allow to give these texts a more historical value. Founded on the study of the Muttaraiyar that is a little-known dynasty of southern India based in the Andhra and Tamil countries between the 7th and the 9th centuries CE, it questions the doxa of the beginnings of the Cōḻa dynasty that has been developed as an identity marker of the Tamil nation-state. The analysis leads us to highlight the rupture that was introduced in the cultural history of the Tamil south when the oldest corpus of Tamil literature, the Caṅkam corpus, started to be reducing to writing.