r/EDH • u/BrokenGlassFactory • 1d ago
Discussion Every bracket should be a turn faster
This is a no-brainer for B2. The expectation is turn nine, which is downright glacial. And more to the point, it's slower than most modern preconstructed decks can present lethal on at least one player. B2 isn't technically the precon bracket anymore, but it still seems like the target most precons are aiming for and this change would help bring expectations in line with reality.
In B3 this brings the fastest decks down from seven to six, or sometimes five with a good hand and a clear runaway. This still excludes genuine turbo decks, but letting combo run faster reinforces the importance of bringing good disruption and speeding up the bracket should give control less breathing room against aggressive decks.
B4 probably shouldn't have turn expectations anyway if the only thing separating it from cEDH is metagame. If there's going to be one, though, setting it at just three turns communicates that there's no holds barred here except for the absolutely best and fastest decks the community has brewed up.
Not entirely sure if I actually buy any of that, but talk me into it if you agree. Or talk me out of it, either way it seemed fun to discuss.
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1d ago
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u/osunightfall 1d ago
That has nothing to do with what they're talking about. They're saying the expectation for minimum time to kill should be lowered because completely fair decks can kill faster than that.
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u/1stcast 1d ago
It is not "Minimum time to kill" it's it "Average time to kill if the expected amount of disruption is played against you"
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u/Short_Peak_7824 21h ago
What makes you think it's an average?
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u/1stcast 19h ago
"Generally you should expect" is the wording used in the modern bracket guidelines. Both of these words give room for variance. The guidelines also say it is expected that in bracket 3+ your deck should be able to reach it's win con even if you are being disrupted. That means designing your deck to potentially win on turn 6 even if your bird got bolted and your commander got countered is the expectation. And if those don't happen and you win sooner that is your opponents fault because they failed on their obligation to disrupt you.
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u/Short_Peak_7824 19h ago
Right, and right beside those is at least.
Meaning this is a relatively loose minimum, not an average.
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u/1stcast 18h ago
A minimum in the case that your opponents successfully fulfill their half of the agreement. To disrupt you. They are required to play removal, stax, counter spells, put pressure on you so you need to do the same. If they aren't upholding their half of the bargain you will do it faster.
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u/Short_Peak_7824 18h ago
How much interaction is the amount you expect?
How many turns earlier are you justifying as "they should be stopping it"
1? 2? 4?
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u/1stcast 17h ago
We are expected to play multiple pieces of interaction in an average game. So you should figure out what your average deck penetration is and account for that when determining how much to put. If you are playing a deck that sees 60% of your deck cause you are milling 5 cards per turn you need less than someone who sees 25 cards.
Generally for bracket 3 decks 1-2 (God hands maybe 3? But like genuinely perfect cards.) turns earlier if no one interacts I personally think is well within reason. But that is now opinion not guidelines.
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u/Short_Peak_7824 17h ago
So we're looking at "ready to stop win attempts on turn 3-4"
How many bracket 3 decks do you see that are holding up interaction turn 3?
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u/BrokenGlassFactory 1d ago
Games have always been allowed to go longer than the minimum expectation, I'm only contending that they should also be permitted to go one turn faster.
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u/Zorenstein 1d ago
Allowed? Is there a rule somewhere that the game MUST end by a certain turn or else everyone just loses? Damn we cant even play a fun casual game anymore without some timmy demanding it be faster
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1d ago
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u/BrokenGlassFactory 1d ago
But what about the converse, when there aren't any speedbumps how quickly should a deck goldfish? I think that's the bar that should set the expectations on interaction, and being able to interact by turn five doesn't seem like a huge ask in the bracket where you're supposed to be eating your vegetables.
Right now the model B3 game has boards build up through about turn four or five, one or two big turns or early win attempts that don't make it, and decent chances of coming to a satisfactory ending on turn seven. Shaving off one of those setup turns doesn't mean games aren't allowed to go to turn 9+ anymore, or even necessarily make it less likely to happen.
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u/Yeseylon 1d ago
Some people like slower games...
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u/Logthisforlater 1d ago
The phrase "every bracket should be a turn faster" reads (to me) like a desire for format powercreep to be written into the bracket system explicitly. Powercreep is already very much a thing in EDH, you might just have to wait a bit to get your wish.
EDH was created to be a slow, casual format and it's already sprinting away from its origins.
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u/TrashNo3341 1d ago
Nine is not glacial, it's just the perfect amount of turns for me.
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u/Frogsplosion 1d ago
Frankly I miss turns 12 through 15
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u/GracelessOne 1d ago
It's easy to get them back! I love playing control decks with compact incremental finishers, and they usually win around turn 14 even in high B3.
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u/AdministrationOk8888 1d ago
If you think 9 turns is ridiculous for a Commander game, then I hope to never play with you. I like my B3 Games to go around about 7-9 turns. Enough time to build boards, endure a board wipe or two, and just generally enjoy the ride. It isn't a damn race, it's Commander.
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u/ParadoxBanana 1d ago
“It’s slower than most modern preconstructed decks”
Uh, yeah… bracket 2 represents the most unoptimized commander bracket that isn’t a literal meme.
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u/CMDR-Helstromme 23h ago
Just play modern or pauper, you'll have more fun than trying to hammer commander players into faster games.
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u/Not-Impossible-1783 16h ago
| 1 || 2 || 3 | -> Playing Bracket 2 (Turn 9) ¯¯¯ ¯¯¯ ¯¯¯ (Changes take effect)
Op "finally i can play how i wanted walks in the door"
| 1 || 2 || 3 | -> Playing Bracket 1 (Turn 9)
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u/osunightfall 1d ago
Sorry, aggro decks hurt people's feewings and running blockers or interaction is boring.
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u/Low_Opinion_5721 1d ago
if you want bracket 2 games to end fast then u should be playing bracket 3, bracket 2 is the only place for people who want to play slow low power decks, and you're wrong about the precon thing, I played the final fantasy precons with my friends abunch and games frequently went past turn 10. I think for bracket 3 tbh turn 6 feels perfect for like everything other than aggro decks killing one or 2 people before turn 6, I can see a case and an exception, and the turn 4 thing for bracket 4 is mostly inconsequential, i have not seen it matter as only really cedh decks win on turn 3 or less, so I overall disagree with u on all of these points