r/TankieTheDeprogram • u/Comrade_Funkenstein • 4h ago
Discussion PSL discourse is legit so confusing
If you look up information on the PSL you will see the the organization described as all of the following:
-a party that does a lot
-a party that doesn't actually do a lot
-the best party leftists in the states have available
-a dogshit trotskyist party you shouldn't join
-a healthy community of leftists with flaws
- a straight up cult with rampant abuse that is covered up
You will see former members saying it was fine, and you will see former members saying it was dreadful and that they wish they would have left earlier.
Its so confusing to try and figure out what's going on. Socialism 4 All HATES the PSL for instance. (I think because he is so hardcore anti-revisionist)
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u/hallo-thare 3h ago edited 3h ago
the reason this is is because we're talking about online discourse where literally anyone can weigh in regardless of their amount of experience with or knowledge of the PSL irl, and this leads to a lot of people kinda just repeating whatever narrative rationalizes their positive/negative political evaluation of the PSL more than anything. the "truth" is you should take what people online are saying with a grain of salt and consider why they might be saying it as fact especially when its clearly something so contentiously discussed. Sometimes it really is one side is basically right and the other is wrong but *you* should figure that out from study or IRL experience.
So basically as always study, organize, and this case interact with a local chapter to actually form an opinion. Ur offline experiences beats anecdotes on reddit but I understand the desire to get input before going in, it can be helpful when its sometimes intimidating to take that first step
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u/hallo-thare 3h ago edited 3h ago
Now, if I were to give my own personal mostly fully-thought out takes on the things u listed:
- I mean yeah. Kinda hard to seriously argue a cadre party with chapters in almost every state isn't doing "a lot". Now where it gets murky is the arguments over whether what's being done is the right decision but that's a whole other can of worms.
- There are definitely smaller and way younger branches that aren't doing a whole lot yet. So this might also just be true for some people locally, which is fair. This is why you end up kinda hearing this about any org at some point. It's true for every socialist org *somewhere* in the country which makes it effectively impossible to refute in 100% of cases, even a mass tent like DSA is still missing some states I think.
- PSL I think generally gets more respect or at least acknowledgement(good or bad lol) than most of other leftist orgs in the US atm. Seems like they've definitely grown and in some ways changed a lot in the 2020s. Whether its the "best" to join honestly depends on your politics especially in this case since they're demcent. They're definitely not the best for like socdems or non-revolutionary socialists.
- The PSL was founded in a split from the WWP(which was a split from SWP which was a split from CPUSA) etc etc. The WWP's chairman was Sam Marcy who was a Trot whose brand of Trotskyism is known as Marcyism. I won't get into the weeds about Marcyism but basically I'd say the pretty fair take is the PSL definitely was closer to that Trotskyist tendency earlier in its history but nowadays is pretty well established as being ML and doesn't gaf about following Marcyism although you could argue the influence lingers in some ways. IMO to just call PSL Trots is pretty removed from the modern reality of their org.
- Sure. Whatever Party/org people like, no matter how much they like it, this description probably holds up pretty well. Definitely some exceptions though, like ACP and imo the RCP(revcoms, the bob avakian guys).
- Sorry but this one out of all of them I'll pretty soundly reject. The "cult" part is honestly in large part due to anarchists/socdems/libs(not conflating them as the same just saying a lot of them have this in common even if they all think theyre right lol) see Marxism-Leninism as inherently "cultish" or "authoritarian", which I would say is primarily left-wing anticommunism and exactly what the CIA wants you to think of the most successful revolutionary socialist ideology ever(even Zapatistas, arguably the biggest exception, were originally ML lol). You see the same link hubs and zines from 2021 reposted by the same people without end arguing this without any significant amount of evidence over time actually establishing there is a consistent pattern of abuse or that the Party is somehow systemically good for abusers aside from just being ML. The PSL doesnt release numbers but it inaugurably has thousand(s), even conservative estimates from biased sources are hardly <2k anymore. Do we *really* think thousands of Marxists in one of the most diverse(both racially and gender-wise) would really put up with this version of events if it was anywhere near that bad? Shitty individuals(even feds lol) will make their way into every kind of leftist organization of any kind ever. Hyperbole doesn't help anyone strive for our orgs to always be improving.
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u/Any_Salary_6284 2h ago
I would call PSL crypto-Trot because even though they have long since officially renounced Trotskyist ideology, they still organize and operate in an essentially Trotskyist manner. Strong emphasis on college campus/student organizing, focusing energy primarily on marches and protests, heavy emphasis on the newspaper pushing (as well as more modern media forms), etc.
This isn’t to say there is zero usefulness in what they do. I do like some of their news channels like Breakthrough News. But I’m very hesitant to join for these and other reasons, and don’t think they represent a true proletarian vanguard party, even though they like to think of themselves as such
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u/hallo-thare 2h ago
is this really true though? You could say a maybe a lot of their organizers get involved in college campuses and they often see success there, I don't see any reason to believe there's an intentional emphasis or disproportionate demographics towards college students in the party nationally. PSL's protests are very loud and public facing but if you look at the IG page of any branch and they hold way more events than rallies unless maybe sometimes when they're really small(and im sure anyone who has ever been in any socialist org knows not all the work being done is being publicized lol). And an emphasis on newspaper pushing how so? Obviously they don't have a newspaper or any newsmedia that you pay for, so do you just mean because they go hard on reaching people through social media? That's doesn't make them Trots lmfao thats just an aspect of modern outreach
This seems like a pretty surface level evaluation to me
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u/External_Option_7653 4h ago
Isn't S4A in the Green party? Idk a lot about them or him though.
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u/Divayth_Fyr457 3h ago
His reasoning for the Greens is that they are a much bigger anti-establishment party that is on the ballot in much more places and is much closer to getting federal funding through the sheer amount of votes. He views it as something that could eventually morph into a mass worker’s party given pushes into the right direction that could then educate the masses on the basics of Marxism.
He doesnt view it as a potential vanguard party or whatever, that is a completely different topic. A vanguard party would arise much later and, as always, consist of workers most educated in theory and history of Marxism.
I do agree that to some extent, supporting parties like PSL or CPUSA does more harm than good when these parties have largely been captured by revisionist and Trotskyist elements. What good is making the word “socialism” much more acceptable if you simultaneously redefine “socialism” as something not threatening the bourgeoise.
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u/hallo-thare 2h ago
You agree that supporting Greens is better to some extent because you think PSL is captured by revisionism or trotskyism and THEY are the ones watering down socialism? How is the PSL more revisionist or worse about making socialism non-threatening than the Green party lmao
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u/2BsWhistlingButthole 3h ago
They are an imperfect socialist party with a Marxist-Leninist roots.
They are the a (relatively) large and active ML party in the United States.
It is very active in protests and the like. Part of their game plan is increasing exposure and making their group more recognizable. This is talked about in Socialist Reconstruction, a book they put out. They are very focused on increasing membership rather than direct action. The thought process behind this is that they need numbers before any effective direct action can be achieved.
This leads to people saying they don’t do enough. This is certainly true if you compare them to groups like the BPP. I personally think PSL should do more things like the breakfast programs of the BPP.
The history of the BPP seems to affect the PSL. I think (I don’t know, I’m not a member) leadership is worried about the hammer coming down and destroying the party like what happened to the BPP. So they are weary of direct action that will draw too much ire from the state.
Out of parties that exist right now in the US, I think the PSL still has the most promise. They are growing and are more revolutionary than larger organizations.
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u/Invalid_Pleb 3h ago
S4A applied to the PSL multiple times and was either ignored or rejected, I think that plays a part in his turn to 'anti-revisionism' and his negative appraisal of the PSL. He describes this in a livestream he did with either fellowtraveler or someone else back when he was somewhat pro China.
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u/BlueCollarRevolt 2h ago
As a PSL member it probably matters what your local branch is up to, but my experience has been very positive. I think it probably is the best marxist-leninist org in the US, but FRSO seems like it might be good too. It's definitely not trotskyist. I think the true vanguard party in the US is yet to be formed, so we all continue to study and organize and act everywhere and every way we can.
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u/Head-Discussion-8977 Marxist Feminist - Maximum Tank 3h ago
I attempted to apply back in 2020 and was rejected bc I didn't have a cohort to make into a full chapter.
As far as the abuse being covered up, it's an issue within almost all organizations I've been involved in. The reasons for this are varied as one might expect from a society founded as it was.
That said, I would still attempt to join whatever org near you is doing good work directly in your community (unless it's the nazbols ofc).
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u/Extension-Badger225 AES enjoyer 🥳 3h ago
I feel from what I can see this is my current take as well. I encourage femmes and minorities to be careful - sexual violence has been a large issue in socialist parties here as well and it’s very dispiriting
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u/hallo-thare 3h ago
Very true unfortunately in basically all cases. There is a lot of work yet to be done in attacking the societal forces that perpetuate abuse and enables abusers across the board
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u/Modernist19171949 3h ago
So much for half the sky 😐
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u/Head-Discussion-8977 Marxist Feminist - Maximum Tank 3h ago
People don't just magically unpack their misogyny etc unfortunately. If they did, we wouldn't have contributions from people like Kollontai, Krupskaya, Federici, etc. Unlearning harmful patterns and life ways is a life long pursuit
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u/spicy-chilly 3h ago edited 3h ago
Socialism 4 All supports the Green Party over the ML party getting the most votes for an explicitly socialist presidential ticket since 1936 so I wouldn't listen to anything they say because that makes zero sense. I would also discard any opinions from liberals, trots, and anarchists.
The bottom line is that a class independent ML party is essential. So if someone criticizes one but still supports PSL, the American Party of Labor, or FRSO then fair enough. If they're selling you on the Green Party or DSA and voting for Democrats then there is zero reason to listen to them.
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u/Zhongdakongming 2h ago
I'm a former member, they are definitely not Trots. There are issues for sure but they aren't Trots.
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u/Curly_Cactus1001 2h ago edited 2h ago
PSL is:
-A Marxist-Leninist party
PSL is an unabashedly communist party following the Marxist-Leninist tendency.
-A great way to get in touch with comrades in your city/state
Bonus: great way to kill your fear of public speaking and getting out of your shell.
-A great opportunity to hone organizing skills
The Party has some tried and true organizing methods, but is always trying new things. Everyone's perspective counts and helps guide your branch.
-Dedicated to building socialist consciousness
PSL is highly dedicated to building socialist consciousness. This may be where the idea that it don't do much comes from, because a lot of events are educational or informative, not performative. Think of the difference between holding a forum around local issues and then showing up to a board of supervisors meeting vs. burning American flags in the street with your friends and going home.
PSL isn't:
-A sex cult
Simply not the case. Sexual harassment, abuse, and allegations thereof are taken very seriously and investigated. "But what about xyz?" Those people have been removed from leadership positions and had their membership severed. These issues are handled internally to avoid leaking identifiable information.
-A Trotskyist party
PSL formed as the result of a split from a split from a Trot party (you that read right). While the PSL might have Trotskyist ancestors, none of that matters anymore, and never comes up. It is an anti-imperialist, ML party.
-Ineffectual at reaching the working class
I've met a few PSL comrades who were elected union leaders and the party generally recommends that you are engaged with your labor union. At least in my part of the country, union members are always happy to join us for actions we call.
-A high control group
No one is forcing anyone to be a member of the Party. You will not get in trouble if you disagree with your comrades or leadership. This criticism is levied by anarchists, liberals, and ultra leftists. They're not used to this level of organizational unity. No, we don't all believe the same thing. The central committee (which is made up of members elected to the position by secret ballot) holds rigorous discussions and debates about how to move the party forward. Same goes for your local branch. We aren't ideologically pure, just ideologically consistent.
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u/sonsquatch 1h ago
I had to do a double take cuz I was thinking a Pumpkin Spice Latte discourse blew up. Apologies comrades.
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u/pine_ary 1h ago
Don‘t take online discourse as an indicator for anything. Who knows who writes this.
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u/WasabiValuable9463 1h ago
Socialism 4 All thinks he's anti-revisionist. He's really just dogmatic.
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u/vonChief 1h ago edited 1h ago
From how I understand it, the PSL generally has a correct ideology and positions, but in actual practice they aren't really building up the dual power necessary to be considered a revolutionary party, instead opting to rely on electorist politics and organizing small scale protests and marches, while receiving large amounts of fundings from very wealthy donors, including a billionaire, and charging high membership dues.
Not to mention I heard they are very sectarian and don't have a good reputation when it comes to collaborating with other organizations or people to achieve greater goals, even when the opportunity easily presents itself.
All around kinda weird if you ask me, but I guess within what is considered the communist movement within the US, whatever that encompasses, they are the least "problematic" of the bunch. Certainly not like the CPUSA, that's for sure, they are still alright to be affiliated with atp. And who doesn't get accused of being a cult these days?
And I'm pretty sure s4a is a trotskyist or the sort. He got popular for his book readings, but when it comes to how he himself understands what he reads and his opinions on things...
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u/FluidKiwi6707 44m ago
S4A is the type of "socialist" who doesn't do dialectical materialist analysis and therefore he opposes AES. They likes Marx, Lenin and Stalin (and maybe Mao, idk) abstractly, in order to pose intellectual superiority, but they couldn't care less about current struggles. Ignorable and mediocre. Do not base any analysis on them. Consume their pro-USSR and generally marxist content but ignore any other "analysis" especially from current things.
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u/Thanaterus 25m ago
Welcome to online leftism lol. This is true for every single Marxist org, not just PSL
Additionally, reddit in particular seems to go through phases where one particular org will be seen as the golden child for a time, then suddenly falls out of favor
When I started researching these groups in 2022, PCUSA could do no wrong. Now they are apparently "nazbols". After them, PSL became the savior. Now, as you're seeing, opinions are much more divided
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