r/nottheonion • u/novagridd • 6h ago

Thailand's Prostitution Patrol on High Alert as 5,000 US Sailors Drop Ship After 200 Days at Sea

https://www.fashiontimes.co.uk/pattaya-police-intensify-prostitution-patrols-us-navy-visit-1763395
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u/Turdmeist 5h ago

Legalize and regulate all the things. Everyone wins. Except maybe law enforcement/jails. But maybe in sensible countries that would be true as well. What countries profit from jailing people?

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u/SethCyclone 5h ago

What countries profit from jailing people? 

The US of A

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u/Throwaway392308 5h ago

Certain people profit, but America itself pays dearly for it. 

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u/Ok-Oil-2130 4h ago

America, by certain people for certain people since 1776

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u/MyCatLaughsAtMe 1h ago

Correct. You've described capitalism correctly.

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u/haliblix 1h ago

That’s been America’s defining characteristic for the past 400 years.

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u/believensee23 4h ago

exactly.

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u/SethCyclone 4h ago

Actually no. America itself profits handsomely. A lot of jobs are done with prison labor (legalized slavery), jobs that if they handn't modern day slaves to do it, would have to pay much higher wages to attract even illegal immigrants, and make cost of living even worse tan it has historically been. America is a racket and a scam and it always has been.

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u/RentIsThePoint 3h ago

So basically like most things in the US.

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u/jab136 4h ago

Yay slavery! /s

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u/Detective-Crashmore- 5h ago

Ya know people say that, but all the places I know of with legalized prostitution are also hubs for human trafficking so I'm not sure how I feel.

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u/nuevacuentanueva 3h ago

Ya know people say that, but all the places I know of with legalized prostitution are also hubs for human trafficking so I'm not sure how I feel.

Honest question. Is it that there is actually more human trafficking or is it the case that it is more reported/controlled since the prostitution is legal so people in the industry are more likely to report those cases?

As an example, if we assume the same amount in both cases, I can see why people involved in an illegal activity wouldn't report cases of another illegal activity since it would affect them negatively. Meanwhile if your activity is legal and it doesn't put your livelihood at risk, you may be more likely to report to avoid issues. So it would look like with legal prostitution there's more cases of trafficking, but it's just more reported ones.

Sort of like how in some places undocumented immigrants tend to report crimes done to them at much lower rates than documented ones. If the risk of being caught for something else is higher, you may not say anything at all.

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u/Neuchacho 3h ago edited 2h ago

There's more based on the studies that look at it. The basic premise is legalizing it makes the market much larger and there's not usually enough local supply to meet demand and thus there are more opportunities for trafficking. It also becomes easier to hide in plain sight because prostitution isn't an instant flag of illegality. To prove illegality you now have to dig into much wider and time-consuming investigations and spot-checks of all these now-legal businesses.

The combination that actually works seems to be the Nordic model where they decriminalize sex work on the worker side, but still criminalizing buyers, pimps, and the like. It's the only adjusted system that's recorded actual reductions in human trafficking numbers to my knowledge.

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u/nuevacuentanueva 2h ago

It's the only adjusted system that's recorded actual reductions in human trafficking numbers to my knowledge.

But that's kind of my point. In my example the human trafficking events that happen in reality are the same, but the recorded number is lower in one case, simply because of reporting issues.

The studies can only use reported events. If something isn't reported they can't know how widespread it actually is.

So saying that legality increase the reported number doesn't mean it increased the actual number of cases.

That's what I'm going at.

I don't know what the solution is, but I think ignoring that massive gap in data will produce incorrect conclusions.

Like I said, I compare it to immigration because I saw studies about that. There were studies that on the same area, with people with the same background/origin, the difference between crime reported was like 2 to 1 on the documented immigrant vs undocumented one.

With that data, you'd think legalizing the immigrants increased crime against them!

Should we assume that criminals were targeting only documented immigrants and not the undocumented ones? If anything you'd think undocumented one should suffer more crime, not less, as they have fewer resources when it happens to them. Or is it way more likely that the undocumented ones simply didn't report the crimes for fear of consequences such as being deported?

Obviously human trafficking is a much more complex issue, but I think the same logic would apply. If you are involved in prostitution while it's illegal, then you'd be way less likely to report than if it was legal and you had protections.

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u/Openly-Horny 16m ago edited 3m ago

But that's kind of my point. In my example the human trafficking events that happen in reality are the same, but the recorded number is lower in one case, simply because of reporting issues.

Their point is that in decriminalized areas where it was safer to report, they saw a reduction in trafficking, whereas there was no reduction in legal areas compared to illegal areas. By your logic the legal areas would see a reduction, but instead they see an increase over baseline because it's easier to hide dirty business among your clean business. Say you've got a brothel with 30 legal workers and 3 underage ones: the only people who know are clients that specifically pay for discretion so they'd never report.

Because decriminalized areas target the bad actors instead of the SWs, the threat actually goes down.

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u/haliblix 52m ago

I’m all for legitimizing someone’s chosen profession but you would have to be painfully naive to think that corpos wouldn’t immediately exploit prostitutes and extract as much profit out of them as possible.

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u/happyilyrednow 3h ago

Not at all accurate. Australia, New Zealand both have it legal and decriminalized I believe, and they certainly are not hubs for human trafficking.

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u/Federal_Scarcity_84 5h ago

I mean, much like Child Protective Services and stuff it just needs more oversight and money. Prohibition doesn't work on much of anything that humans innately desire but enough oversight should at least stop the worst things. Of course the more corrupt the overall system is...sigh.

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u/HerlufAlumna 4h ago

Excuse you? Denmark has legalised prostitution, and even the Danish Centre Against Human Trafficking does not call us a hub. There's active efforts to combat exploitation, made easier because the victims of trafficking are not criminalised for it, and thus more likely to seek aid.

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u/Xin_shill 4h ago

It’s a lie perpetuated by fundies to try to keep criminalizing human behavior instead of fixing the problem. It’s a “think of the children” argument while doing nothing to actually help people/children in these situations and instead criminalize them.

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u/HerlufAlumna 3h ago

Nailed it.

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u/Invisible7hunder 4h ago

I think there enough data to say that, on average the legalization of prostitution does increase human trafficking. Of course, its complex, as such sociological issues always are, so the discussion shouldn't end there. As you point out, at least part (if not all) of this increase can be attributed to greater degree of reporting, due to victims not being/feeling unable to rely on the protection of the law. There is also the effect of market size. Legalization tend to increase the amount of prostitution taking place, so all problems associated with it are expected to increase in magnitude, even if they stay stable in proportion to the industry's size.

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u/nonotan 3h ago

What data is that? As far as I know, it's illegal in basically all the countries that are infamous for their human trafficking issues. Are you ignoring those and only comparing relatively law-abiding first-world countries with and without legalization or what? Because that would seem like a serious selection bias.

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u/Neuchacho 2h ago edited 2h ago

All data points to full decriminalization/legalization increasing trafficking. There is never enough local supply to cover the drastic increase in legal operations and so sex traffickers fill the vacuum. We've seen this pretty much everywhere it's happened with full legalization.

The only model that shows a decrease is the Nordic model where the workers themselves are not criminalized, but buyers, pimps, etc.. still are.

Reporting likely plays some role in it, but there's nothing that indicates the sharp increases are solely explained by better reporting. The fact the Nordic model provably seems to work shows that full legalization isn't really the fix if the goal is less sex trafficking.

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u/SquatSquatCykaBlyat 2h ago

Yeah but Denmark is known to fudge facts to make themselves feel better. Just like the "we don't abuse migrant workers who come here to pick our crops" narrative.

TL;DR: it's a lie.

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u/Turdmeist 4h ago

The regulate part. They pay taxes which funds support system to help prevent that. Plus if it's legal there would be less need to force people to do it against their will this reducing the benefit of trafficking. Just just drugs. You legalize it so it can be manufactured in the States and boom, the cartels of central and South America just lost a huge chunk of their income and many lives will be saved. Maybe too late at this point since they have so much power already and they could just diversify. But decades ago it would have been foolproof.

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u/Detective-Crashmore- 4h ago

My point is that the places that have tried to regulate are still trafficking hubs.

When it's legal, it's much easier to hide when people are doing it against their will, put them into positions where they have no other choice, and to traffic vulnerable people. People oversimplify the situation down to just "regulate it", but creating safe non predatory institutions is incredibly complicated and I don't know that anyone has quite figured this one out yet.

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u/Turdmeist 4h ago

Very true. Fair enough. But I don't think keeping it illegal is helping. Complicated for sure. Human trafficking is a scary big global topic that is hard to even think about. So most people don't because it's too painful. And it is truly hard to believe it is as pervasive as it is. Sad times.

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u/Xin_shill 4h ago

So better leave it illegal so the victims get punished along with the “criminals”. Yay! And if you just legalize the selling and not the buying, the people who sell still get kicked out of their homes due to having illegal acts done there, even if they are not “criminal”. Stop the nonsense, decriminalize consenting human behavior and improve social services to provide basic humans needs and help people in bad situations instead of spending it on the criminal system.

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u/SteveJavieWasRight 4h ago

How is it easier to hide human trafficking when victims are not illegalized? When prostitution is illegal, people find ways to solicit without doing so publicly, and victims of trafficking are already committing crimes by participating in prostitution. If it’s legal then prostitutes don’t have to worry about getting arrested if discovered, and it’s easier to identify where they are and regulate it. None of this makes sense to say trafficking is easier when prostitution is legalized unless legalized means 0 regulation.

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u/gerrineer 5h ago

Err..america!

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u/mycondishuns 3h ago

What countries profit from jailing people?

"Hi there, USA here, boy have I got something to tell you."

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u/TravelingMonk 5h ago

I dont think they enforce the law?

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u/svachalek 5h ago

A lot of laws are not enforced if you break them in the right way and right time and keep your mouth shut about it. But if you go in and upset the order you’re getting arrested. This is true even in strong “law and order” countries. In the US there’s a certain amount of speeding that people would be shocked and dismayed to be punished for, even though it’s equally illegal to going faster, for example.

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u/LaconicGirth 4h ago

I got a speeding ticket for going 2mph over and fought it in court and the judge himself actually threw it out and basically told the cop not to waste his time

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u/xmuskorx 1h ago

It really depends on how well it's actually regulated.