Most pro-choice people are hedonists even if they don't call themselves that. It's why they see a bigger problem with killing a 8 month unborn baby than with killing a 1 month unborn baby. It has to do with how much any suffering can occur. Once I had a debate with a pro-choice guy who told me that the consequences of giving birth to a baby include things like post-partum depression and spending 18 years paying for the child. You can only say this if you're a hedonist.

Hedonism is obviously not the standard we're using. It can't be because we're not saying that a level of suffering makes abortion good, okay or understandable. If someone adheres to the principles of hedonism, I honestly don't know what to say to convince them to change their minds.

I think this is why debating PCs is so frustrating. They seem to think that they can change my mind by talking about all the complications of having a child. They don't seem to understand that if those complications were enough to win me over, I would have been pro-choice by now. Like what, do they think I'm unaware that having a baby is hard?! I'm arguing against using lethal force against a tiny human. All possible difficulties be damned. You don't have the right to kill someone for being inconvenient.

If you want to know why I reject hedonism I can say in the comments section.

• Hedonism

• Women Are Wonderful Effect

• Hating Babies

• No Accountability

• Poverty

Hedonism – don't really have to explain this one much. I had a conversation with a pro-choicer who laughed at the idea of having less sex. “What, do you expect women to have sex 4 times in their life?” Implying that she's okay with a woman having 3+ abortions in her lifetime in order to accommodate for her hedonistic choices.

Women Are Wonderful Effect – have you seen the stories of women committing enfanticide and the women in the comments section defending her by implying that she had no choice and if only abortion was legal in that area (even if abortion is legal in that area.) Well that's the women are wonderful effect. It's assuming that women are good and have good reasons for everything they do. If a man hits a woman, he is most likely the villain. If a woman hits a man, she is most likely defending herself.

Hating babies – need I say more. The fact that childless women are calling themselves “childfree”, likening children to cancer is a huge sign of the times. For years we have literally killed newborn babies who survived abortions in the hospital and not a single PC person cares about this or is trying to stop it. Kids are a burden and will end all your fun times. That's the message that's been repeated for decades.

No Accountability – why is it that PC women will not take any of the accountability for the fact that they “needed” to have an abortion? They will blame men for being promiscuous but they won't blame women for agreeing to have PIV sex. It's very strange. Women must have at least 50% of the responsibility when it comes to abortion. I personally think they have more than 80% because they often decide to sleep with men who don't wear condoms. They decide when sex happens and how frequent. The only reason they wouldn't be deciding that is if they're a victim of rape.

PC people won't accept that women are mostly responsible. What do you think? Who has most of the blame when it comes to abortion?

Poverty – I had a debate with a PC guy on discord once who told me that children born in Africa are an asset to their parents. They go to work and provide something since young children are expected to do labour. But children in the West are a burden. They are not doing labour for the family and that's why abortion is common in the West. I was so aghast at the fact that this guy was so okay with Western babies being killed because they contributed to poverty and were not an asset like their African counterparts. I'm apparently just supposed to be happy that humans are dying because of money. It makes me want to tear out my hair.

Two experiences with religious pastors... Lord, have Mercy on us all.

Last week, I met a "Baptist"/ independent type preacher in the inner city, a very poor area, while placing a go order at a restaurant. We'd been having a good conversation despite so many differences in race, creed, sex, rural and urban upbringing/ life, economics, etc. We seemed to agree on Jesus.

I knew what his response would be, but I still had hope I would be wrong about his expected response.

When he finally took a breath in his speech *condemning* the part that (homo+)sexuality was playing in the world's demise, I jumped in.

I added firmly that we should be ashamed of the abortion factory across from the high school just down the road. That my belief is that abortion condemns our nation. Leads to other ills.

I wasn't sure at first, but it quickly became clear he thought abortion at any point, for any reason, was a gift from God. He condemned the protesters as hurting people, as against God. It hurts my soul so much to see someone who claims to be a 70 year old man of God advocate for death.

It didn't take long for him to tell us of his many children and grandchildren, with many women, unmarried it sounded. He alluded to women he impregnated having abortions (her/their choices, he said). It was so sad. I did my best to love him and be an example of Christ. But WHY? He works hard for his community, loves them. But... does he, really?

This reminds me of the Presbyterian minister in the safest suburb of the metro, when there was a vote on the ballot regarding abortion.

I had made some simple signs and found a proper, busy sidewalk corner. The building was quite a bit back from the corner, but it had a huge empty parking lot. I asked him nicely if I could park in their large empty lot on an election Tuesday afternoon, no polling places nearby. It would be possible I might need to leave quickly for my safety. He refused and made excuses. His meaning and intentions were clear. He didn't want his church community to be thought of as against abortion or for unborn life.

I was shocked. At that time, I never imagined any pastor or minister supporting abortion.

🤔

I did find a better location near the polling place, but outside the perimeter of the election space. The reactions from my fellow Catholics at the Church, school, and daycare across the street were tragically mixed. Reactions from firefighters and others were actually positive.

Abortion is the worst crime or action or sin of our time. It is against God. It's against Jesus in the womb. It's against humanity.

Lord, have Mercy on our souls.

So I'm a libertarian. At least for now until I find a better system. Although I am okay with monarchy existing in the world, I think libertarianism is better than the neo-liberal systems of the West currently.

What do libertarians have to say about abortion? Well apparently there is evictionism which is like this: a pregnant woman has the right to evict something she doesn't want from her body but she doesn't have the right to intentionally kill it. If the fetus can survive outside the womb then she should remove it without killing it.

This principle looks like it allows for abortion until 20 weeks gestation.

According to libertarian ethics there is only one right and that is the right to property. Wait, but what about the right to life and the pursuit of happiness? Redundancies. If you own yourself then you have the right to life and the pursuit of happiness. And following from there rape, murder and kidnapping are property crimes against a person. So there is only one right, the right to property which follows you get to decide what happens to that property.

So an unconscious fetus who cannot survive outside the womb, do they have this right? The right to not have their body destroyed. It makes sense to say no, since they cannot and do not have any preferences, but if you believe that simply having a body means that you have property that should be respected, I could see that working for law.

So libertarians can either believe in evictionism where persons can be removed from your body (your property) whenever you want but you cannot kill them if they can survive outside the womb.

Or they can believe that having a living body gives you property rights, meaning no one can ever kill you unless you intentionally aggress.

I think this is what the divide would look like between PC libertarians and PL libertarians.

My friend uses this argument that the disabled and children in poverty or with unsupportive parents will go through suffering in their lives that can be avoided by abortion. How can they say that when we live in a privileged position where we don’t know what these people go through. Also off topic, but I’ve managed to get good enough at debating abortion that one of my other friends has to resort to saying that killing people is sometimes justified. Here in England, I am disgusted by how prevalent these ideas are in this country. Thoughts?

I’ve only identified as pro-life for about 4 months. Before that, I considered myself casually pro-choice, mostly absorbing the standard narrative through osmosis: "The mother carries the child, so she gets to decide."

At the time, I viewed abortion as a grave, tragic decision that ultimately rested with the mother. However, as I saw public discourse shift toward treating abortion as something to celebrate or normalize reducing the fetus to "just a clump of cells" or promoting slogans like "Shout Your Abortion" it genuinely shocked me. Seeing that desensitization prompted me to step back, re-evaluate my assumptions, and look at the issue through a completely different lens.

When I started asking questions, the hostility I encountered only accelerated my shift. Facing immediate accusations of bigotry and dismissal "It's just a clump of cells dude" instead of genuine dialogue pushed me into a more defensive posture. It forced me to look deeper into the pro-life arguments, and I realized that side raised valid concerns that were being dismissed far too quickly.

I’m sorry but how are you going to be an all welcome forum for pregnant women but only allow mothers who support killing their offspring? I’m sorry what? Im recently pregnant and I have no support or information. I’m 19 and looking online for more support as I have no one, but every place I go you must be pro abortion… I’m not even against abortion I am all for non elective abortions, I’m just against abortions that are done electively.. it just makes no sense. If there’s a support sub Reddit where you don’t have to agree to human rights violations please send me that way!

When I was 15 I found myself pregnant at the end of my freshman year, I instantly knew I wanted to keep it. I had planned on not telling my mom until it was too late to get the procedure. But I ended up telling her because I got worried about medical care needs for my baby.
I regret ever telling her. Her instant reaction before asking what I wanted to do was she suggested we schedule an abortion. My step dad was verbally abusive and coercive about wanting me to get an abortion as well. It was everyday I felt like I couldn’t handle it at all. My mom said it was my choice over all but it never felt like my choice, it felt like I was shamed and un supported.
On top of this the father’s family was pressuring me and fed me lies that he molested his sister. After I had the abortion they admitted it was all a lie so I’d go through with it.
At 12 weeks I finally agreed to have the procedure and it was the most traumatizing experience of my life. Everyone says it’s just a clump of cells and that I would feel relieved afterwards. It was not. The planned parenthood staff were cold and cruel, even making jokes to eachother while I sobbed during the procedure. I honestly thought I’d feel normal and be able to just be a teenager again and I feel so stupid for ever thinking that.
After the procedure I dropped out of school for 6 months, I had so much self hatred and would cry myself to sleep every night just missing my baby and missing the life I could’ve had with my baby.
I haven’t felt the same for years. I’m 24 now and I have 2 beautiful living babies. Most days it still feels like I’m missing a piece of myself and my sanity. I’m suicidal year round and try my best to just get through each day but I feel haunted. I wish someone would’ve told me the actual reality of the procedure instead of the lies pro choice communities feed women.

there is so many layers to this…

aside from acknowledging the baby in the womb is a baby and then acting shocked why McKenna might not want to „end the pregnancy“ (because that would kill her baby) my first thought was „ripping the baby away from their biological parents? You mean HER???“

I'm a 33 year old woman. I used to live an angry and troubled life and was in prison between 2016 and 2024. Within the last year I've become active in my husband's Southern Baptist Church and I've accepted Jesus as my savior and been baptized. I gave birth to the world's sweetest and most handsome baby boy on July 8 and I LOVE being his mother. I now live my life with deep faith and strong Christian morals and believe abortion is murder.

But when I was 21, well before I found Jesus, I got pregnant and had an abortion at 10 weeks. I never told anyone besides my boyfriend at the time. My husband doesn't know either. I never struggled with that choice until I accepted Christ as Lord. I'm now stuck trying to reconcile my new life with my view that I intentionally murdered my own child 12 years ago.

At the time I didn't believe I did anything wrong. Now I believe I did something deeply wrong and inexcusable. I look at my son now and feel such love and pride and I'm so thankful to Jesus for the blessing to be his mother. But my first baby also trusted and depended on me and I made the choice to end his or her life. Please Lord forgive me.